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Thread: Danny Granger 13-14 Discussion

  1. #76
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Toronto's mayor makes an appearance.
    I give Danny props and look how i'm treated...

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  3. #77
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I give Danny props and look how i'm treated...
    Those who simply have differing views of Danny can get very rough remarks around here. They think only Vnzla does that, but they would be wrong.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I give Danny props and look how i'm treated...
    Saying Danny is a little better than OJ is considered giving Danny props? To stick with the child theme, it would be like me telling a couple their daughter is just a little bit prettier than Honey Boo Boo and then wondering why they got upset.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-14-2013 at 11:52 AM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Paul George can pass the ball.

    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of either one of them, but to just look at scoring efficiency to determine who the better player is silly. Should expect around here though
    I'm actually not sure what the definition of a "black hole" is, then. I always looked at it not just as a guy who doesn't pass - because that has a LOT to do with how they are used in the offense and how that offense is set up - but whether they complete their shots as expected.

    Taking 19 shots per game would only be a black hole to me if he only got a few more touches than that AND if the shots he took were bad ones. I really don't think either of those is the case with Danny, especially considering he was expected to be the finisher and not the facilitator on the earlier teams.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those who simply have differing views of Danny can get very rough remarks around here. They think only Vnzla does that, but they would be wrong.
    Yeah, some like handing out insults in the form fat chick jokes. Damn them.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  11. #81

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those who simply have differing views of Danny can get very rough remarks around here. They think only Vnzla does that, but they would be wrong.
    FREE VNZLA!!!!!

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  13. #82
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's like watching a toddler try to stick the square block through the circle hole. I know they don't understand, yet I feel compelled to switch out the blocks in their hand.
    Perfect example. It really is. I feel the same way. That desire to inform confused people is what turns every thread into a ridiculous back and forth for 3 or 4 pages. Some people simply should not be taken seriously on certain subjects.

    That may seem cruel, but it'll save part of the board from having a brain aneurism because a few boarders don't understand basic fifth grade math.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    I wasn't going to post this, but I think I will since the intuition over intergers guy showed up.

    Harvard students get near-perfect SAT scores. These are smart, smart kids. So they shouldn't have trouble with a simple logic question, right?
    Try the following puzzle:
    A bat and ball cost $1.10.
    The bat costs one dollar more than the ball.
    How much does the ball cost?

    Scroll down for the answer ...







    You probably answered 10˘. That's what most Harvard students answered. But the real answer is 5˘.
    Behavioral economist Daniel Kahneman explains why most people get this wrong:


    A number came to your mind. The number, of course, is 10: 10˘. The distinctive mark of this easy puzzle is that it evokes an answer that is intuitive, appealing, and wrong. Do the math, and you will see. If the ball costs 10 ˘, then the total cost will be $1.20 (10˘ for the ball and $1.10 for the bat), not $1.10. The correct answer is 5˘. It is safe to assume that the intuitive answer also came to the mind of those who ended up with the correct number—they somehow managed to resist the intuition.
    Many thousands of university students have answered the bat-and-ball puzzle, and the results are shocking. More than 50% of students at Harvard, MIT, and Princeton gave the intuitive—incorrect—answer. At less selective universities, the rate of demonstrable failure to check was in excess of 80%. The bat-and-ball problem is our first encounter with an observation that will be a recurrent theme of this book: many people are overconfident, prone to place too much faith in their intuitions. They apparently find cognitive effort at least mildly unpleasant and avoid it as much as possible.

    This excerpt comes from Kahneman's 2011 book, "Thinking, Fast And Slow," which posits that we have an intuitive mental system and a logical mental system, and we often use the wrong one at the wrong time.


    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/quest...#ixzz2kdjsMDLf

    And that's why stats are used. Because we allow our feelings, either about ourselves or about the topic, cloud our judgement.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-14-2013 at 12:08 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  16. #84

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm actually not sure what the definition of a "black hole" is, then. I always looked at it not just as a guy who doesn't pass - because that has a LOT to do with how they are used in the offense and how that offense is set up - but whether they complete their shots as expected.

    Taking 19 shots per game would only be a black hole to me if he only got a few more touches than that AND if the shots he took were bad ones. I really don't think either of those is the case with Danny, especially considering he was expected to be the finisher and not the facilitator on the earlier teams.
    His high usage and low assist percentage has always bothered me. Same for Rudy. Just because your the #1 option doesn't mean you don't have to find your teammates.

  17. #85
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm actually not sure what the definition of a "black hole" is, then. I always looked at it not just as a guy who doesn't pass - because that has a LOT to do with how they are used in the offense and how that offense is set up - but whether they complete their shots as expected.

    Taking 19 shots per game would only be a black hole to me if he only got a few more touches than that AND if the shots he took were bad ones. I really don't think either of those is the case with Danny, especially considering he was expected to be the finisher and not the facilitator on the earlier teams.
    To me, a "black hole" is a Player that is determined to score once he gets the ball in his hands where he rarely passes the ball out to anyone. The only "black holes" that I can think of that used to wear a Pacer uniform is Hansbrough, Inferno and Flip Murray. I recall watching them knowing that once they got the ball , I knew that "come hell and high water".....they were going to try to put the ball in the bucket while not making any attemptto pass it out even if they were trapped on defense.

    I never really got that impression from Granger....maybe sometimes, but I can see that ( as you suggest ) because of the role that he had on the offensive end when he was healthy...which ( unfortunately ) was long ago when the team was built around him.
    Last edited by CableKC; 11-14-2013 at 12:19 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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  19. #86
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Paul George can pass the ball.

    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of either one of them, but to just look at scoring efficiency to determine who the better player is silly. Should expect around here though
    So what did Danny do with the ball, when he didn't shoot it? The first answer I can think of, going with the logic that Danny doesn't pass, would be that he just turns the ball over. Well he has a career TO average of 2, and so does PG, so that rules out that answer.

    So maybe he just didn't have the ball in his hands that much, and when he did, he just shot. So we look at Danny's usage rate. I see that Danny has/had a usage rate of anywhere from 23% to 29.6%. PG's usage rate? 29.7%. WOW!!! They had the ball in their hands similiar amout of time, have similiar shot attempts, but one is a black hole and the other one atleast knows how to pass.

    Don't equate assist numbers to how often a player passes.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  21. #87
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Very similar players. Danny's more efficient because he shoots better and gets to the line more, but Gays the better ball handler, better athlete, better in transition. On the exact same level of player IMO... and both can be black holes
    Danny Granger has never attempted 37 shots in a single game. Granger and Gay are not similar at all. Luol Deng would be a good comparison with a healthy Danny but Gay is completely different than both of them.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    I think the black hole, this hole, that hole talk is a bunch of crap.

    Danny has been the primary focus of the offense when healthy. As his star rose, so did his utilization rate and thus his number of shots per game. Jeesh, is that difficult to understand? And, at the time that Danny was taking a lot of shots, it's not like our team was stocked with an abundant number of offensive contributors. West was coming off of injury and Hibbert and George had not yet arrived. Hell, Vogel hadn't yet arrived.

    If you were to look at George's FGAs, they have steadily increased ove the last couple of years as his utilization and star have risen. It's not a difficult concept to understand. The better you become as a player, the more the offense counts on you to score. When Danny last played two seasons ago, George's FGAs were about 6-7 a game. Last year, even though Hibbert and West were improved and contributing more, with Danny and an improved George, George's attempts climbed quite a bit from the previous season. And now this seaso, with George emerging as one of the best players in the league and the focal point of our offense, his FGAs have jumped through the roof compared to his prior seasons.

    Should we conclude that George has become a black hole? Especially considering that we have several other capable scorers on this roster. Of course not. Vogel designs his offense to score on as many of our possessions as is possible. That will include opportunities for Hibbert, West, Hill, Stephenson, Scola and even Granger when he returns, along with a very healthy dose of George.

    Don't get me wrong, some teams are designed for a single player to be the where all end all point for the offense. The Pacers are not, nor were they even while coached by the unnamed one, "that" team. So can we stop the usage of he term black hole in referencing any Pacers player?

    The only time I recall a Pacers player being a true "black hole" was in a game against Phoenix several years ago when a certain PG that once showed a lot of promise decided he would no longer pass the ball the entire fourth quarter and take all of the shots himself.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Paul George can pass the ball.

    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of either one of them, but to just look at scoring efficiency to determine who the better player is silly. Should expect around here though
    Here we go again with the "better" argument. I guess that the TS% thread didn't teach anything to some people.

    Allow me to repeat it:

    Better scoring efficiency does not equal better.

    Since86 and I didn't focus on who is "better". We are just trying to debunk the "black hole" argument.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    His high usage and low assist percentage has always bothered me. Same for Rudy. Just because your the #1 option doesn't mean you don't have to find your teammates.
    I guess I just don't equate "assist numbers" with "passes". Again, depending on the offense, not everyone is expected to find the guy cutting for the basket or ready for the catch and shoot.

    In particular, the overall assist numbers for those teams were extremely low, which was considered one of the big problems. So, either everyone was a black hole or the offense wasn't geared to scoring off ball movement. I'll take the latter.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those who simply have differing views of Danny can get very rough remarks around here. They think only Vnzla does that, but they would be wrong.
    And yet Danny himself is the recipient of the toughest remarks in this site..
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

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  31. #92
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    His high usage and low assist percentage has always bothered me. Same for Rudy. Just because your the #1 option doesn't mean you don't have to find your teammates.
    Whether he was a "black hole" on offense on or before 2011-2012 is a matter of opinion.

    But that was then...this is now.

    The offense is now oriented around 4 other more dominant ball handlers in the Starting Lineup. He won't have the opportunity to be the "black hole" that one may think that he will have. If anything, I'd be okay with him scoring if and when he gets the ball only because (A) I think that the defense won't be fully focused on him and he will be able to better score and (B) he understands the role that he has on this Team now and won't demand that he gets 12 to 15 FGA a game..

    I don't think that he will return to the Team with the same expectations that he had when he was fully integrated into the Team in the 2011-2012 season. His role on the offensive end was different than it is now. At best...he's a 3rd to 5th scoring option when he is on the floor. Why others think that he will do that baffles me.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    That may seem cruel, but it'll save part of the board from having a brain aneurism because a few boarders don't understand basic fifth grade math.
    They understand the math perfectly. They just disagree with it because it doesn't fit their opinions.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    His high usage and low assist percentage has always bothered me. Same for Rudy. Just because your the #1 option doesn't mean you don't have to find your teammates.
    Just because someone can score it doesn't mean that he can pass as well.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Don't equate assist numbers to how often a player passes.
    And that's another area in which NBA.com's Player Tracking feature will prove helpful. Its new Passing statistics will keep track of how often a player passes the ball regardless if it ends in a shot or not. In other words, it will pinpoint the players that move the ball and are willing passers.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Welcome back
    thumb.gif

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Saying Danny is a little better than OJ is considered giving Danny props? To stick with the child theme, it would be like me telling a couple their daughter is just a little bit prettier than Honey Boo Boo and then wondering why they got upset.
    in all fairness i said Granger at 75%.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    in all fairness i said Granger at 75%.
    Would would be about a 14-16pt scorer, which is about 2X better than OJ.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    I'm good with Danny turning into a "black hole" with the second unit. If he can score close to his average why not. I'm concerned with Danny being unhappy running with the second unit and becoming a locker room problem. ** I have no basis for that, just worried about the possibility **

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  44. #100

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Would be about a 14-16pt scorer............

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