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Thread: Danny Granger 13-14 Discussion

  1. #276

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I would add that the person you pass to has to take the assisted shot and make it. Considering the offense in some of the JOB years neither of those was a given.


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    Also, you don't get an assist if you are a person who passes the ball to the person who gets the assist. Or if you were the person who passes the ball to the person who passes the ball to the person who gets the assist.

    There are a lot of high assist players that are still ball hogs, because they happen to dribble the ball for 20 seconds before passing off to someone, instead of keeping the ball moving with a flowing offense.

    Danny isn't a playmaker. And his is more likely to shoot than pass if he's got a good shot. That doesn't mean his a ball hog or a ball stopper.

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  3. #277

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    [B]
    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Obviously you care about shooting rates, if you say that he's a black hole because he shoots too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And that's why I brought up PG, because of how identical their numbers are. You're willing to call one a blackhole, while punting towards the other. It shows clear biasness, not based on play, but rather who we're talking about. Inconsistent in your application of the arugment.

    I've never only focused on his shot attempts. It's his all around game I take into consideration.

    And Nuntius , whether he can help it or not doesn't really matter to me. You can be an unselfish person and still be a black hole.

  4. #278

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    I'm not saying there aren't 2 sides to every argument, I'm just not listening to yours! A direct quote from every angry ex-wife who ever lived.

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  6. #279

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    And there goes the victim card again. Try this. Tell the rest of the forum which posts you think deserve an infraction and compare them with your post that got one.

    I'm seriously tired of this victim card that some people constantly use.
    I thought you weren't talking about me the first time you brought that out, Nuntius, but clearly you were. My opinion on Danny and comment about Vnz, which was obviously a joke and a play on Free Lance, was given an infraction and met with disrespectful remarks. I shouldn't have to repost them for you to figure that out.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 11-18-2013 at 05:54 PM.

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  8. #280

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    If JOB's offense is to blame for Danny's shoot early and often mentality, which I agree played a large part, why didn't his shots per minute take a hit in Franks first full year? And why, even though he was finally on the floor with good players, did his assist and assist % plummet to near career lows? Fact is he didn't change his game at all. If anything he became even more of a ball stopper. I want Danny to take less shots, take better shots, and pass the ball more. When he does that I'll change my opinion. Hopefully that'll happen in the next few weeks.

  9. #281
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If JOB's offense is to blame for Danny's shoot early and often mentality, which I agree played a large part, why didn't his shots per minute take a hit in Franks first full year? And why, even though he was finally on the floor with good players, did his assist and assist % plummet to near career lows? Fact is he didn't change his game at all. If anything he became even more of a ball stopper. I want Danny to take less shots, take better shots, and pass the ball more. When he does that I'll change my opinion. Hopefully that'll happen in the next few weeks.
    Um, his shots per minute did drop. He went from 18 shots per 36 minutes to 16.4 shots per 36 minutes.

    Why did almost everyone's assist% also drop, like Darren Collison's. From 32.9% to 28.9 and then again to 24.9. Roy Hibbert's assist% also dropped once Frank took over. His second year he was averaging 2 assists in 25 minutes, now he is averaging half that in 29 minutes.

    Also, by the way, Granger's TO% did drop to career lows under Vogel, not just near career lows. So under Vogel Danny's shots per minute decreased, his assists decreased, his turnover decreased, his Offensive Rating increased to the second best of his career, and his Offensive Win Share increased to the second best of his career. Note, ORtg and OWS take into consideration more than just how many points he scored individually. They take into consider things such as assists and turnovers. So if you are telling me that the more of a ball stopper Danny is the more efficient he becomes, then by all means I want Danny to be a ball stopper. That isn't reality though. Reality is Danny is not a ball stopper, he is not a black hole, he is not inefficient, and your opinion of what he has been over his career is just dead wrong. There is no truth to it at all. I have no idea how you came to that opinion, but it isn't by remembering things correctly. Knowing how memories work I imagine it has something to do with him not playing in a year, and it is easier for you to remember the bad plays than it is for you to remember the good plays.

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  11. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    So Granger is probably still going to be a while?
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

  12. #283

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It's slowly going to become last year all over again.
    That's what I have been thinking for a while now....
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

  13. #284
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I thought you weren't talking about me the first time you brought that out, Nuntius, but clearly you were. My opinion on Danny and comment about Vnz, which was obviously a joke and a play on Free Lance, was given an infraction and met with disrespectful remarks. I shouldn't have to repost them for you to figure that out.
    I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm talking about everyone who uses that victim card in this forum which in that case included you. Seriously, it's extremely annoying that some people choose to end their arguments with the "of course, I will be attacked for my opinions" part.

    A forum is supposed to be a community, CJ. If you feel persecuted, SPEAK UP.
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  14. #285
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    And Nuntius , whether he can help it or not doesn't really matter to me. You can be an unselfish person and still be a black hole.
    It matters to a coach, though. A good coach should not task a player to do something out of his capabilities. We don't task Hibbert to shoot 3 pointers because that would be a bad use of his talents. Similarly, we should not task Danny with facilitating because that's not the best use of his talents. Danny is better used as a finisher. That has always been the case with him and that's why he has traditionally played his best when he is paired with players that are good at facilitating.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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  15. #286
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If JOB's offense is to blame for Danny's shoot early and often mentality, which I agree played a large part, why didn't his shots per minute take a hit in Franks first full year?
    They did, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    And why, even though he was finally on the floor with good players, did his assist and assist % plummet to near career lows?
    Because our Team Assists and Assist % plummeted.

    In 09-10 (JOB's last full year), we were 14th in the League at Assists per Game with 21.1 APG ->
    http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2010-06-18

    In 10-11 (coaching change year), we were 27th in the League at Assists per Game with 19.4 APG ->
    http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2011-06-12

    In 11-12 (Vogel's first full year), we were dead last in the League at Assists per Game with 18.3 APG -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2012-06-21

    In 12-13 (last year), we had a slight rise and we were 28th in the League at Assists per Game with 19.8 APG -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2013-06-20

    In general, Vogel's offense is a lot less assist-friendly than JOB's. That's natural since post-ups are less likely to produce assists than Run and Gun or PnR.

    There is a clear reason why almost everyone on the team posted lower AST % than their career averages in 11-12 and it has nothing to do with any player in particular. The reason is systemic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Fact is he didn't change his game at all. If anything he became even more of a ball stopper.
    That's not a fact. That's an opinion. The statistics (which is the closest that we can get to a fact) say otherwise.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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  17. #287

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Um, his shots per minute did drop. He went from 18 shots per 36 minutes to 16.4 shots per 36 minutes.

    Why did almost everyone's assist% also drop, like Darren Collison's. From 32.9% to 28.9 and then again to 24.9. Roy Hibbert's assist% also dropped once Frank took over. His second year he was averaging 2 assists in 25 minutes, now he is averaging half that in 29 minutes.

    Also, by the way, Granger's TO% did drop to career lows under Vogel, not just near career lows. So under Vogel Danny's shots per minute decreased, his assists decreased, his turnover decreased, his Offensive Rating increased to the second best of his career, and his Offensive Win Share increased to the second best of his career. Note, ORtg and OWS take into consideration more than just how many points he scored individually. They take into consider things such as assists and turnovers. So if you are telling me that the more of a ball stopper Danny is the more efficient he becomes, then by all means I want Danny to be a ball stopper. That isn't reality though. Reality is Danny is not a ball stopper, he is not a black hole, he is not inefficient, and your opinion of what he has been over his career is just dead wrong. There is no truth to it at all. I have no idea how you came to that opinion, but it isn't by remembering things correctly. Knowing how memories work I imagine it has something to do with him not playing in a year, and it is easier for you to remember the bad plays than it is for you to remember the good plays.
    He shot the same amount of shots in 11-12 as he did in 10-11 and the usage was almost identical. In his first year here I saw on numerous occasions D. West get frustrated that he didn't get the ball in pick n roll situations because Danny dribbled with his head down to the paint looking for a foul when David was wide open. Probably once a game he missed Paul on the break, instead choosing to pull up, or take it in himself. I know I'm not the only one seeing this. He certainly didn't take a step back so Paul could emerge like I'd hoped. Maybe it wasn't his fault because of coaching or maybe his game just doesn't help his teammates. Who knows that's a matter of opinion. The numbers certainly don't prove a thing either way. I can agree with that.

  18. #288

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm talking about everyone who uses that victim card in this forum which in that case included you. Seriously, it's extremely annoying that some people choose to end their arguments with the "of course, I will be attacked for my opinions" part.

    A forum is supposed to be a community, CJ. If you feel persecuted, SPEAK UP.



    I have and now I'm dropping it.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    He certainly didn't take a step back so Paul could emerge like I'd hoped.
    Paul wasn't ready to emerge in his 2nd year. Most 2nd year players are not ready to emerge. They typically emerge in their 3rd year just like Paul did.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I have and now I'm dropping it.
    Without telling to the rest of us who persecutes you and why?

    Edit: Speaking up is different than saying "ow, I'm being unfairly persecuted but those who disagree with me aren't". Speaking up is indicating your persecutor and his/her reasons.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 11-18-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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  21. #291
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    A forum is supposed to be a community, CJ. If you feel persecuted, SPEAK UP.
    I don't think CJ is feeling the community love.
    .

    .

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I don't think CJ is feeling the community love.
    I don't think that a lot of people feel that. That's too bad, though. If we did, we would argue a lot less in this forum.

    And it's obviously not easy to feel the community love when you claim that the other half of the community persecutes you.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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  23. #293
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I don't think that a lot of people feel that. That's too bad, though. If we did, we would argue a lot less in this forum.

    And it's obviously not easy to feel the community love when you claim that the other half of the community persecutes you.
    Are you not proving his claim by making this statement...after he said he was dropping it?

  24. #294
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by rock747 View Post
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    So Granger is probably still going to be a while?
    Yes, it will be awhile. There are season ticket packages to sell.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    He shot the same amount of shots in 11-12 as he did in 10-11 and the usage was almost identical. In his first year here I saw on numerous occasions D. West get frustrated that he didn't get the ball in pick n roll situations because Danny dribbled with his head down to the paint looking for a foul when David was wide open. Probably once a game he missed Paul on the break, instead choosing to pull up, or take it in himself. I know I'm not the only one seeing this. He certainly didn't take a step back so Paul could emerge like I'd hoped. Maybe it wasn't his fault because of coaching or maybe his game just doesn't help his teammates. Who knows that's a matter of opinion. The numbers certainly don't prove a thing either way. I can agree with that.
    In retrospect, Paul wasn't ready to emerge until 20 some odd game into last season. The first full yr under Vogel was D.West's first year here, and he was coming off injury. He was used to being an unquestionable 2nd option in NO to being the 2nd/3rd option here; all while getting his legs under him.

    I know I'm late to the party, but most traditional SF's aren't putting up crazy assist numbers...especially if they're big scorers. A good example aside from Danny would be Luol Deng whom up until last year had never even averaged 3 assists a game. Now is Deng a black hole, chucker, etc? What about Shawn Marion?

    Certain guys are just much better sticking to shooting and scoring the ball. As long an they aren't shooting their team OUT of games, then why not utilize your best qualities as a player?

    Lastly do we ever consider the teammates Danny played with for quite a while? You're not going to be looking to make an extra pass to Stephen Graham. A lot of the time a tough, challenged shot by Danny was the best option on the floor. None of our current stable of players would have fared any different or better with those teams under JOB.

    Edit: I don't want you to feel like Posters are piling on you CJ. So I def want you to know though our opinions on this particular subject are completely different, I still recognize and respect your opinion.

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  27. #296
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    What, knees are contagious now?
    And now Lance is out, ya jerk. Thanks for jinxing us.

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  28. #297

    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes, it will be awhile. There are season ticket packages to sell.
    ok, i mean hasn't it already been awhile....
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  29. #298
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    [B][B]


    I've never only focused on his shot attempts. It's his all around game I take into consideration.

    And Nuntius , whether he can help it or not doesn't really matter to me. You can be an unselfish person and still be a black hole.
    So a blackhole describes an all around game, and not specifically related to shooting the ball?
    Last edited by Since86; 11-19-2013 at 09:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Are you not proving his claim by making this statement...after he said he was dropping it?
    Reciting the claim is now proof that the claim is true?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger To Resume Practice

    So when did Granger get a Hobby Farm and what difference does it make if his calf is sore?
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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