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Thread: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Is Herb really committed to a championship or simply providing this town with a franchise that significantly makes this town a more interesting and enjoyable place to live? Would Herb rather spend his money on Cancer centers, research buildings in Bloomington, and other buildings having significant worth than paying another ballplayer a fat salary?

    Just asking because we don't really know his priorities. Having an excellent team that does really well but not championship well may just be fine with him.

    He and his brother have made a real difference in Indy and not just in sports.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Is Herb really committed to a championship or simply providing this town with a franchise that significantly makes this town a more interesting and enjoyable place to live? Would Herb rather spend his money on Cancer centers, research buildings in Bloomington, and other buildings having significant worth than paying another ballplayer a fat salary?

    Just asking because we don't really know his priorities. Having an excellent team that does really well but not championship well may just be fine with him.

    He and his brother have made a real difference in Indy and not just in sports.
    We know they spent the money to go for the gusto before.

    However, we also know that they really only bought the team to keep it from being moved, and after a lot of pressure to do so. I have heard it said that Mel was more of a fan than Herb is - don't know how much more, but my understanding was that Mel had a lot of passion about it where Herb is more businesslike.

    We also know that the money was spent previously when the Pacers were The Hot Thing in Indianapolis. Not only have the Colts had bigger success since then, but Herb has to have felt kicked in the teeth by the 5 years from 2004-2009 as much as any Pacer fan. It may mean that the city needs to show passion (and not just pocketbook) to get him back to feeling a championship is worth spending more money on (and that ultimately it won't lose as much).
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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    In response to the idea of the owners losing money, here is an imperfect illustration.


    Let's say I put $5,000 per year into a retirement account. Am I losing $5,000 per year? Of course not. When I retire I am going to have a fat sum of money waiting for me.

    So even if an owner is in the red $10,000,000 per year, the value of his franchise is growing at a faster rate and he could cash out to get his money at any time.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    In response to the idea of the owners losing money, here is an imperfect illustration.


    Let's say I put $5,000 per year into a retirement account. Am I losing $5,000 per year? Of course not. When I retire I am going to have a fat sum of money waiting for me.

    So even if an owner is in the red $10,000,000 per year, the value of his franchise is growing at a faster rate and he could cash out to get his money at any time.
    But if you're putting that 5k into losing stocks you have little to nothing. Certainly not exponential growth.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Emphasis on the word imperfect!! lol

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    But if you're putting that 5k into losing stocks you have little to nothing. Certainly not exponential growth.
    I'm guessing the value of NBA franchises has been at steady climb, if not steep.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  8. #57

    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    In response to the idea of the owners losing money, here is an imperfect illustration.


    Let's say I put $5,000 per year into a retirement account. Am I losing $5,000 per year? Of course not. When I retire I am going to have a fat sum of money waiting for me.

    So even if an owner is in the red $10,000,000 per year, the value of his franchise is growing at a faster rate and he could cash out to get his money at any time.
    Bingo. If Herb sold the team tomorrow he would make an enormous profit.

    Herb bought the team in 1983 for 11 million dollars.

    Today it is worth 383 million.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I'm guessing the value of NBA franchises has been at steady climb, if not steep.
    Which is my point.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Anything is conceivable...yes, it is possible to re-sign both Granger and Lance...but the cost is dumping one of the Starters for a huge expiring this season. So, is it possible, yes....is it likely? Nope.....we cannot clear enough capspace to get enough under the LT to be able to re-sign both of them. It comes down to one or the other....just pick one.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    I think if Larry Bird were to go to Simon and say, we're definitely winning a championship if we spend $80m, and we definitely won't if we spend only $75m, then Simon wouldn't hesitate to pay "the cost of winning". But if Larry were to say, well, we maybe have a 10% chance to win it all with a $80m roster, but this chance drops to 8% with a $75m roster, then I think Simon is entitled to question why he should spend ~$10m more in luxury tax and lost revenue sharing for a marginal increase in the odds of winning. The thing is, just going over the tax presents a huge nonlinear jump in costs without proportionate increase in winning. If you look at the tax teams, they almost all go whole hog - no point in spending just a little bit over the tax, where there's a huge increase in cost for little return.

    Anyway, IMO Larry will do what it takes to re-sign Lance. The only question is what other corners would need to be cut in order to make it work financially.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    We know they spent the money to go for the gusto before.

    However, we also know that they really only bought the team to keep it from being moved, and after a lot of pressure to do so. I have heard it said that Mel was more of a fan than Herb is - don't know how much more, but my understanding was that Mel had a lot of passion about it where Herb is more businesslike.

    We also know that the money was spent previously when the Pacers were The Hot Thing in Indianapolis. Not only have the Colts had bigger success since then, but Herb has to have felt kicked in the teeth by the 5 years from 2004-2009 as much as any Pacer fan. It may mean that the city needs to show passion (and not just pocketbook) to get him back to feeling a championship is worth spending more money on (and that ultimately it won't lose as much).
    That would explain why they would go over while Mel was alive, but not anymore.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    If Danny returns to starting form and Lance doesn't drop off from where he is then it's questionable if we can sign either. I don't just assume that Larry is going to give away future assets to dump another 8-10 mil in salary just to keep Lance or Danny.
    The only way I could see us keeping both would be if Herb decides it's o.k. to go over the L.T. which I doubt or if Danny just doesn't get any offers and is forced to sign for the vet minimum.
    Assuming both play well I still expect us to keep the more affordable player and no matter what I expect fans to be upset that we let the better player go. We've got a long season ahead of us that will decide the cost of each player.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    In all honesty, if Danny returns to form and the team decides to move on and let him go somewhere else in Free Agency, I expect the fans to turn on him like sharks on chum. He'll be "disloyal", it will "prove why he was a bad fit", it will be "good riddance to a scrub".

    Never mind that it will actually be the Pacers' decision...
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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    To answer the original question:

    With Paul's extension, the team will have $65M-$67M in salary next season, leaving $4M-$6M to re-sign Lance. I'd expect Lance to get a 4 year/$20M/$25M deal, maybe more. So, the only way to re-sign Danny with Lance is to ship out Cope and another bench player like Scola/Ian and get Danny to take $3M-$5M a year, while killing your bench size.

    Cope, whatever. But Scola and Ian are showing themselves to be a huge part of the second unit's success...and all of this is predicated on Danny taking a lot less money than he could get about anywhere else.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In all honesty, if Danny returns to form and the team decides to move on and let him go somewhere else in Free Agency, I expect the fans to turn on him like sharks on chum. He'll be "disloyal", it will "prove why he was a bad fit", it will be "good riddance to a scrub".

    Never mind that it will actually be the Pacers' decision...

    I don't think that will happen. I don't remember people hating on Brad Miller when he left for money. People were upset that the Pacers didn't keep him, but they weren't mad at Miller personally.

    Most people with an elementary understanding of professional sports understand that athletes chase money and that the Pacers are a severely cash-strapped team because of all of the contracts they've recently given out.

    Anyone who understands the business won't be upset at Danny for doing what's best for Danny.

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  20. #66

    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    At this point, Danny is disposable.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In all honesty, if Danny returns to form and the team decides to move on and let him go somewhere else in Free Agency, I expect the fans to turn on him like sharks on chum. He'll be "disloyal", it will "prove why he was a bad fit", it will be "good riddance to a scrub".

    Never mind that it will actually be the Pacers' decision...
    I'll be extremely disappointed with our fanbase if that is a popular belief.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    To answer the original question:

    With Paul's extension, the team will have $65M-$67M in salary next season, leaving $4M-$6M to re-sign Lance. I'd expect Lance to get a 4 year/$20M/$25M deal, maybe more. So, the only way to re-sign Danny with Lance is to ship out Cope and another bench player like Scola/Ian and get Danny to take $3M-$5M a year, while killing your bench size.
    Cope, whatever. But Scola and Ian are showing themselves to be a huge part of the second unit's success...and all of this is predicated on Danny taking a lot less money than he could get about anywhere else.
    We're at 50 mil without PG, Lance or Danny. PG at 18 would put us at 68 leaving 4 spots to fill to hit the minimum of 13 players. Even if we sign 1 mil players for 3 of those spots that puts us at 71 mil without Lance or Danny but that does still include Scola at 4.5 mil. It's insane to consider dumping Scola after what we gave up to get him.
    There are ways to make things happen but no matter what Larry does it hurts next summer.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    To answer the original question:

    With Paul's extension, the team will have $65M-$67M in salary next season, leaving $4M-$6M to re-sign Lance. I'd expect Lance to get a 4 year/$20M/$25M deal, maybe more. So, the only way to re-sign Danny with Lance is to ship out Cope and another bench player like Scola/Ian and get Danny to take $3M-$5M a year, while killing your bench size.

    Cope, whatever. But Scola and Ian are showing themselves to be a huge part of the second unit's success...and all of this is predicated on Danny taking a lot less money than he could get about anywhere else.
    What about David? If Danny comes back to anything close to pre-injury form (i.e. borderline All-Star) would it be worth giving up David to keep Danny and Lance?

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    What about David? If Danny comes back to anything close to pre-injury form (i.e. borderline All-Star) would it be worth giving up David to keep Danny and Lance?

    Definitely not. Good bigs like David West are far harder to come by than players who play Danny's position. We are absolutely stacked in the size department. You don't give up an advantage like that. Losing West would completely change the dynamic and make-up of our team.

    And I would say that West himself was a borderline all star last season.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    What about David? If Danny comes back to anything close to pre-injury form (i.e. borderline All-Star) would it be worth giving up David to keep Danny and Lance?
    Just for the record, I'm not suggesting the Pacers actually do this. Just trying to promote some outside the box thinking.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    The irony is that Bird told Danny he would build a good team around him, but he ended up doing such a great job that it's going to be hard to find room for Danny beyond this season.

    Professional sports can be a harsh business.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    What about David? If Danny comes back to anything close to pre-injury form (i.e. borderline All-Star) would it be worth giving up David to keep Danny and Lance?
    Danny, Lance, GH, David, or Scola.. I hate the idea of losing any of them. I guess if I had to pick my poison it would be Scola if that was enough to make a difference folowed by GH only if Lance proves he's able to move up to starting pg and he has a long way to go to prove that.

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    If Danny returns to starting form and Lance doesn't drop off from where he is then it's questionable if we can sign either. I don't just assume that Larry is going to give away future assets to dump another 8-10 mil in salary just to keep Lance or Danny.
    The only way I could see us keeping both would be if Herb decides it's o.k. to go over the L.T. which I doubt or if Danny just doesn't get any offers and is forced to sign for the vet minimum.
    Assuming both play well I still expect us to keep the more affordable player and no matter what I expect fans to be upset that we let the better player go. We've got a long season ahead of us that will decide the cost of each player.
    Lance IS a future asset.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Any conceivable way we bring back both Lance and Danny ?

    Once Danny comes back from injury, and he regains his AS form, and becomes 2008 Granger in the flesh, Lance will not be needed. Everybody knows you always keep the 30yr old veteran with injury history over the 23 year old future all-star
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