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Thread: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    But lots of running backs do continue to make plays in spite of bad lines in front of them. Some do it a lot. T-Rich never does it. To the point that we should just stop handing him the ball. But the Colts still do.
    Let's get some names. I've provided examples of good running backs going from great to horrible within a year, because their offensive line changed.

    It's a lot easier said than done. I don't think any back in the NFL can produce with getting hit in the backfield so much. It's nearly impossible.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It took Shaun Alexander 3 years to slip down to 2.2 ypc, which is where Ray Rice is at within one year.
    LaDanian's worst performance was 3.3.

    Either of those would be a vast improvment over what Rice as done.
    YPC is important, but it's just one stat. Being healthy and able to carry a huge workload over an entire season is also important, and both LT and Alexander fell off the map pretty quickly, especially Alexander.

    Alexander had 1880 yards in 2005 with a 5.1 YPC. The next year he only played in 10 games, had 896 yards, and the YPC fell to 3.6. In 2007, his final year, he played in 13 games, had 716 yards with a solid 3.5 YPC, but he was only averaged 16 carries a game compared to carrying it in the mid 20's pe game like he did in his prime. The guy basically fell of the map overnight.

    LT was probably a bit more of a stretch on my part, but it was still a pretty quick downfall. Absolute freak in 06 and 07. Still pretty great in 08. But in 09, he only totaled 730 yards on about 16 attempts per game. Still had a good YPC, but he quickly became a guy who could no longer handle a super intense workload like he did just two years earlier.

    I'm not saying that it's all Rice's fault, but it's not hard to believe that he's fallen off.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    So rushing for nearly 900 yards in just a bit over half a season is "crumbling" to you? Wow. Obviously it's not on the same level as the previous year, but it's a pretty good season for someone that is supposedly washed up. To put that in perspective, that's on pace for 1400 yards over a full season.

    And the reason he wasn't used, isn't because he suddenly dropped off, it's beause he had fracture in his foot.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2602571
    Last edited by Since86; 11-11-2013 at 12:16 PM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So rushing for nearly 900 yards in just a bit over half a season is "crumbling" to you? Wow.

    Lol, yes, in the context of what they had been, i.e. the best running backs of their era like Rice has been over the prior four seasons. I'm comparing them to their own standards.

    Look at what Alexander did in 2005 and then compare that to 2006 and 2007. If that's not crumbling to you, then I guess the only thing that would count as crumbling is if he would have retired after 2005.

    LT was still good, but he quickly became a guy who could no longer handle an intense workload.

    The idea that Rice is fading after having the absolute hell beat out of him for four long years is hardly surprising.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Obviously it's not on the same level as the previous year, but it's a pretty good season for someone that is supposedly washed up. To put that in perspective, that's on pace for 1400 yards over a full season.

    And the reason he wasn't used, isn't because he suddenly dropped off, it's beause he had fracture in his foot.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2602571
    I'll repost this as I edited it originally.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'll repost this as I edited it originally.
    If you look at the 2006 game logs, he still wasn't playing that great (in comparison to his 05 standards) even before the injury. And he was never great again even after he healed. Serviceable? Certainly, but not even close to what he was in 2005 or before.

    I think that Ray Rice will be very good again, but I doubt we see 09-12 production.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    A player who was on pace for 1400 yards, which would have been top 7, is now serviceable.

    Maybe that explains some of this, expectations are just through the freaking roof.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    A player who was on pace for 1400 yards, which would have been top 7, is now serviceable.

    Maybe that explains some of this, expectations are just thew the freaking roof.

    In 2007 after he had a complete season to heal that foot injury, he only totaled 716 yards and could only handle about 16 attempts a game. This was just two years after an 1800 yard season. If that's not crumbling quickly, then I'd love to see what your standards are. Sounds like the only think that you would consider "crumbling" is if the player died.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    In 2007 after he had a complete season to heal that foot injury, he only totaled 716 yards and could only handle about 16 attempts a game. This was just two years after an 1800 yard season. If that's not crumbling quickly, then I'd love to see what your standards are. Sounds like the only think that you would consider "crumbling" is if the player died.
    Yep, that's exactly it. If you don't think averaging enough to be on pace for 1400 yards a season isn't crumbling, then you have to think that a player has to die in order to crumble. You got me.

    I addressed Shaun's later years already, noting that players usually start declining over a couple years, not going from almost 4.5 ypc almost 2ypc in a years time, like Ray Rice.. I'm waiting for an example, where a player's production was almost cut in half. Giving me an example of a season shortened by injury, which was being very productive, doesn't cut the mustard no matter how extreme you have to purposefully distrot what I'm saying.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yep, that's exactly it. If you don't think averaging enough to be on pace for 1400 yards a season isn't crumbling, then you have to think that a player has to die in order to crumble. You got me.

    I addressed Shaun's later years already, noting that players usually start declining over a couple years, not going from almost 4.5 ypc almost 2ypc. I'm waiting for an example, like Ray Rice, where a player's production was almost cut in half. Giving me an example of a season shortened by injury, which was being very productive, doesn't cut the mustard no matter how extreme you have to purposefully distrot what I'm saying.
    Even if he was on pace to have 1400 yards in 2006, the fact remains that he did play 13 games in 2007, yet only totaled 716 yards because he could only handle about 16 carries per game. This was just 2 seasons after an 1800 yard season. He came back strong in 2006 after the injury, but the next year he couldn't handle a heavy workload. In 08 he only got 11 attempts and was completely finished. That's crumbling quickly anyway you slice it.

    You continue to harp on 2006 in which I just conceded that he did play well after healing from the injury, but ignore 2007 where he did play most of the season yet clearly didn't have the juice that he did just two years earlier.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-11-2013 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Even if he was on pace to have 1400 yards in 2006, the fact remains that he did play 13 games in 2007, yet only totaled 716 yards because he could only handle about 16 carries per game. This was just 2 seasons after an 1800 yard season. He came back strong after 2006, but the next year he couldn't handle a heavy workload. In 08 he only got 11 attempts and was completely finished. That's crumbling quickly anyway you slice it.

    You continue to harp on 2006 in which I just conceded that he did play well after healing from the injury, but ignore 2007 where he did play most of the season yet clearly didn't have the juice that he did just two years earlier.
    Alexander was injured throughout 2007 as well.

    Ray Rice isn't injured. The only difference is that he has a new offensive line. That's what I'm going for. Players, who are healthy, that seemingly drop off the map. Is it them or is it a product of a new line? I'm trying to find good backs that overcome their crappy offensive line, and produce at a level that would be acceptable for Richardson.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    I just don't think it's too much to say that Richardson should get somewhat of a pass, until he gets a line that atleast can get him to the LOS. If they were getting a good push, opening up a few holes, and he was just flat out missing them and running into defenders, then I get it.

    But that's not what is happening. He's met in the backfield by atleast one defender on pretty much every play. I wish I was exaggerating, but unfortunately they're just that bad. I think we could put AP in the Colts backfield, and he'd look bad.

    EDIT:

    I understand saying that Grigson screwed up in wasting a first round pick. I don't think they'd use it for a OLinemen, but I understand it. I have no vested interest in Trent, outside of him being a Colt. I don't like Bama, I have no clue about him personally. The line is just so bad, that it's hard for me to see much that can be done in an area that's so dependent on the line.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-11-2013 at 01:06 PM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Alexander was injured throughout 2007 as well.

    Ray Rice isn't injured. The only difference is that he has a new offensive line. That's what I'm going for. Players, who are healthy, that seemingly drop off the map. Is it them or is it a product of a new line? I'm trying to find good backs that overcome their crappy offensive line, and produce at a level that would be acceptable for Richardson.
    I thought he had hip injury or something earlier in the year? I have a hard time buying that the guy is 100%. Being an NFL running back is juts an assault on the body and this guy has been going full steam for four years in a brutal division. That's four games a season against Pitt and Cincy, plus they have always gone pretty deep in the playoffs.

    I'm trying to think back to the San Francisco game in which Bradshaw shined. I swear he was able to make "something out of nothing" in a way that T-Rich hasn't in any of his seven games here. Did the O-Line just happen to play abnormally great in that one game? I need to go back and re-watch some highlights.

    I'm not saying that everything is T-Rich's fault. And I'm certainly not giving up on him. But I am judging it from the POV that we did give up a first round pick for him. So far, it basically looks like you could throw someone off the street into that position and have similar results. I just don't see a running back who can create something out of nothing like others.

    Our line was wretched last year too, wasn't it? Yet Vick Ballard still looked pretty damn solid.

    I don't view it as an either/or thing. I think it's a combination of play calling, O-Line, and T-Rich.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Our line was wretched last year too, wasn't it? Yet Vick Ballard still looked pretty damn solid.
    I don't remember this "power" running game at all last year. Every time Pep sends out the jumbo package, I want to tear my hair out. That's the main issue, for me. They have an awful running game to start with, and then they let everyone know when they're going to run, to top it off. Embarassing.

    And Rice sat out wk 3, but he's said multiple times that he's been healthy.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-11-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I don't remember this "power" running game at all last year. Every time Pep sends out the jumbo package, I want to tear my hair out.

    And Rice sat out wk 3, but he's said multiple times that he's been healthy.

    True, and that's just not adjusting to the personnel or circumstances. Trent definitely looks better when he gets the ball in space.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I'm not saying it's a good situation and nobody here is. I think that SOME of the time he should be able to make something happen out of it regardless. Is he going to be consistently successful the way things are? Of course not, no RB could. But lots of running backs do continue to make plays in spite of bad lines in front of them. Some do it a lot. T-Rich never does it. To the point that we should just stop handing him the ball. But the Colts still do.
    Spot on. Have read many Seattle fans who complain a lot about their OL yet they see Lynch makes a play or two. Richardson hasn't done that. On the other hand I doubt T-Rich is that good so no surprise. It's not like he has showed glimpses of a great talent, so you will always have hope he will come good.

    However you look at it (either because he's not worth it or he's worth it but can't perform behind a bad OL), looks like a bad trade right now.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Spot on. Have read many Seattle fans who complain a lot about their OL yet they see Lynch makes a play or two.
    He wasn't making plays when they were trying to fill the gaps just a few weeks ago. As someone who has Lynch on my fantasy team, watching their Pro-Bowlers go down and Marshawn only getting 191yrds through weeks 6-8 was giving me lots of heartburn.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He wasn't making plays when they were trying to fill the gaps just a few weeks ago. As someone who has Lynch on my fantasy team, watching their Pro-Bowlers go down and Marshawn only getting 191yrds through weeks 6-8 was giving me lots of heartburn.

    Lol, do we have the same fantasy team or something? I have Lynch too. I know we've talked about having Hilton. And didn't you also mention having Julio Jones in the thread about his injury?

    In a year where so many running backs have been complete fantasy flops, it's certainly nice to have Lynch.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    True, and that's just not adjusting to the personnel or circumstances. Trent definitely looks better when he gets the ball in space.
    I agree with you both on these last two points.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Lol, do we have the same fantasy team or something? I have Lynch too. I know we've talked about having Hilton. And didn't you also mention having Julio Jones in the thread about his injury?

    In a year where so many running backs have been complete fantasy flops, it's certainly nice to have Lynch.
    Yes. I also have Tom Brady, who has been a fantasy bust outside of last week.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yes. I also have Tom Brady, who has been a fantasy bust outside of last week.
    Looks like our teams are different there. Brady could be a stud the rest of the way though with Gronk back. Plus Amendola is healthy (for now) and Ridley is beginning to look like last year. I think they are getting Vereen back too after their bye. Brady could easily be a top 5 fantasy QB in the second half.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I agree with you both on these last two points.
    ----
    I understand the principle of having a system and driving it home in building years. Maybe we all got a little too high on whether this was a building year or a playoff run year.
    I think the playoff run expectations were spot on. If all of these key offensive players didn't go down, then we'd have a pretty stacked team. Reggie, Bradshaw, Ballard (no T-Rich if he's healthy), Allen, and Donald Thomas on the line (key FA addition). That's a pretty potent offense. And even with the injuries, the team has kept on winning. When you beat SF, Seattle, and Denver, it's hard not to let your mind wonder about a deep playoff run. I don't think any team in the NFL has three wins that are as impressive as that. Heck, we are still the only loss for both Seattle and Denver. The problem though is that while we can beat the elite teams, we seem to play down to the not so good teams. Losses against Miami, SD, and St. Louis. Nail-biters against Oakland and Houston (understandable to a point since they were playing for their season and treat playing us like it's the Super Bowl).

    The stat I posted earlier is not a mark of a playoff team: We are 49-3 in the last two first halves against teams that were a combined 5-11 entering the games. That's a hideous statistic.

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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He wasn't making plays when they were trying to fill the gaps just a few weeks ago. As someone who has Lynch on my fantasy team, watching their Pro-Bowlers go down and Marshawn only getting 191yrds through weeks 6-8 was giving me lots of heartburn.
    Pretty sure he recorded a lot of yds in the last couple of weeks with Seattle still missing some of their best linemen(2 of them just returned to practice last week IIRC).

    What is your point anyways? Lynch is a not great RB but a byproduct of their OL?
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Pretty sure he recorded a lot of yds in the last couple of weeks with Seattle still missing some of their best linemen(2 of them just returned to practice last week IIRC).

    What is your point anyways? Lynch is a not great RB but a byproduct of their OL?
    No, that when their OL went down with some injures, Lynch's production suffered. When their OLine got it figured out, his production went back up. Right in line with what I'm saying, about how an OLine can turn a good back bad, and fast.

    On a related note, both Kravitz and Wells both tweeted that Pagano acted like a coach looking to make some changes on the OLine. Bout damn time.
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    Default Re: Colts vs Rams Post Game Thread

    I think what I'm saying is that maybe TPTB don't see the need to milk this season for short term playoff success as much as we fans do. To win now, I think we're going to have to quit pretending we're a power running team until there are better pieces in place.

    OTOH, maybe they see doing that as counter productive long term when they want to build that power running into our DNA. Not sure I agree with that per se'... but then I'm certainly not adverse to long term success IF that is really what this is all about.

    I could be right about what is happening... and they could be wrong about it being the proper way to go forward in this injury riddled season. Or not.

    Just trying to understand the rationale that is leading to slow starts.

    Oh that and the KO returns. Take a freaking knee!!!! Bad field position sure doesn't help us any. If the KO returns were all bad decision making via Reed then either we'd get a different returner OR tell him to always take a knee and let us start on the 20. Since they keep doing it I have to think it's by design that he brings it out more times than not.
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