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Thread: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

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    Default Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?


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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    We'll find out.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGeorgeHill View Post
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    .
    By Tom Haberstroh
    Consider your message received, Roy Hibbert.

    On Wednesday night, the Indiana center took to Twitter and declared that he's made it his goal to win NBA Defensive Player of the Year this season. He also called his shot that Paul George will win MVP this season. But Hibbert probably didn't need to embark on a campaign trail to get our attention. Truth is, his Pacers are playing loud enough to let their game speak for itself.

    It's impossible to ignore that the Indiana Pacers sit atop the NBA standings with a big, fat 5-0 record, the only team that's still undefeated this season. They've trounced their opponents by 11.0 points per game on average, which actually understates how dominant they've been this season since they play at a snail's pace. And to drive home the point, they just put a beatdown on the Chicago Bulls on national television.

    We see you, Indiana. After pushing the Miami Heat to the brink of elimination last postseason, the Pacers haven't just picked up where they've left off. By all indications, they've gotten better. Which brings us to this question: Are they better than Miami -- like, right now?

    It's a fair proposition given their astounding growth in the early going and Miami's ho-hum efforts so far. Should Miami be concerned? Here are three reasons the answer is yes.

    Hibbert's Dikembe Mutombo act

    The Pacers have blitzed to a 5-0 record by continuing to suffocate opponents on the defensive end. Although they haven't blown off any doors with their offense, the defense has allowed an NBA-best 85.6 points per 100 possessions. And in the middle of it all, quite literally, stands Hibbert, who already gave the Heat a host of problems in the playoffs. After finishing 10th in last season's Defensive Player of the Year vote despite anchoring the top defense in the land, the 7-foot-3 behemoth has managed to pack on muscle in the offseason without sacrificing agility. Hibbert has blocked a baffling 5.2 shots per game so far this season, marking the most rejections he's ever averaged across any five-game stretch of his career.

    LeBron James and Roy Hibbert
    Issac Baldizon/Getty Images
    These days Hibbert is blocking shots like another G-Town alumnus -- Dikembe Mutumbo.
    And thanks to SportVU 3-D player-tracking technology, we can dig deeper into Hibbert's defensive numbers beyond his gaudy block totals. There we find that Hibbert isn't merely cherry-picking his blocked shots, he's altering a ton of others as well. It's a tiny sample size, but it hints at Hibbert's extraordinary basket protection that opponents are shooting just 28.9 percent when Hibbert is within five feet of the rim and the shooter. Seen another way, if you're taking a layup with Hibbert nearby, the odds of it going in are lower than a typical heave from beyond the 3-point line. Think about that.

    But what's most impressive about Hibbert's current reign is that he's owning the paint without letting fouls get in the way. This is particularly startling once you consider his track record in this department. His rookie foul rate of 7.7 times per 36 minutes back in 2007-08 still goes down as the highest whistle rate of any player since 2004-05 (min. 1,000 minutes played). Eight seasons later, no one's topped it.

    Safe to say he's a different player these days. He's cut his foul rate by more than half since that rookie campaign, earning a foul call a career-low 3.4 times every 36 minutes. Protecting the rim without fouling may be the most valuable quality for a big man, and so far, Hibbert appears to have mastered that skill probably better than anyone else. Not bad for a guy who couldn't take three steps without getting called for a foul. If he keeps this torrid pace up, he won't just win the Defensive Player of the Year award; it'll be renamed in his honor.

    George MVP?

    Make no mistake about it, Hibbert has competition for the defensive hardware -- and he won't need to look far to find company. After receiving a max extension in the offseason, George certainly hasn't lost interest on that side of the floor. He remains a two-way beast on the wing with an overall game that perhaps only LeBron James can match. At just 22 years old, George was the youngest player voted in the top 10 of the Defensive Player of the Year vote last season. (He finished eighth, two spots ahead of Hibbert.)

    LeBron James and Paul George
    Brian Spurlock/USA TODAY Sports
    Paul George is emerging as LeBron James' one true rival in the East.
    George appears to be just getting started. Using his length to lock down the opposing perimeter scorer, George has been the perfect first line of defense in front of Hibbert's safety net. Consider this: When Hibbert and George have played together so far this season, opponents have scored just 75.1 points per 100 possessions in 141 minutes -- the lowest rate for any duo in the league, according to NBA.com data. That output is probably around what we'd expect if a team sneaked a sixth player on the defensive end.

    Of course, the Pacers' defensive numbers should regress to the mean a bit. After all, five games does not a season make. The question is whether we can say the same about George's explosive start on offense. George has basically morphed into Kevin Durant there, blending efficiency with high-volume shooting from just about everywhere. Most impressive is that he's shooting 44 percent on 7.2 attempts per game from deep, helping to boost his true shooting percentage to a scorching 62.6 percent.

    But is it sustainable? When George absorbed the primary scoring responsibilities with Danny Granger out last season, he consequently watched his true shooting percentage tumble from 55.5 percent in 2011-12 to 53.1 percent in 2012-13. And that follows what we know about the usage-efficiency trade-off effect. But this season, George is defying the general laws of the game; George has managed to raise his efficiency level while also watching his usage rate soar to a career-high 29.2 percent. That's tough to do.

    Although it's certainly possible that George's improved jumper isn't a mirage, the smart money is that George will descend back to Earth at some point as the season progresses. On a per-game basis, he's now averaging 25.8 points, 8.2 rebounds and 4.0 assists along with a 27.2 PER. That's enough to get tossed into the MVP discussion and further legitimize his standing as James' true rival in the East.

    The real difference-maker

    The ascensions of Hibbert and George should make life easier against the Heat; they aren't interested in matching the Heat in sheer star power. That's a fool's errand. In reality, it was Indiana's anemic bench that needed the biggest overhaul this season. And so far, so good.

    Thanks to newcomers Luis Scola, C.J. Watson and the surprising Donald Sloan, the Pacers haven't missed a step going to their bench even though George Hill has missed three starts with a bothersome hip. The Pacers have outscored opponents by a margin of 4.4 points every 48 minutes this season when they've gone to their reserve core. In the postseason against the Heat? Indy's bench got pummeled by 21.8 points per 48 minutes by Miami, according to NBA.com data. D.J. Augustin, Sam Young and Gerald Green were borderline unplayable last season, and the Pacers promptly cut ties over the summer.

    Luis Scola
    Michael Hickey/Getty Images
    Luis Scola's arrival has given Indiana's roster depth and aggressiveness.
    Propelled by a smash-mouth defensive mentality, the Pacers could look at the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons, who knocked off the more glamorous Los Angeles Lakers squad that featured four future Hall of Famers. It's worth noting that the Pistons stumbled upon some luck by facing a Lakers team that essentially played without Karl Malone, who had a bad knee. Like all championship hopefuls, the Pacers likely would need some good fortune on their side to overcome the Heat, although they already received some of that last postseason with Dwyane Wade's knee limitations.

    But to say that the Pacers lack a superstar like that title-winning Pistons team would undercut what George has been doing this season. With George and Hibbert chasing hardware and the revamped bench unit showing the early returns, the Pacers have every reason to feel like Miami's equal these days. Although it remains to be seen whether they can ultimately top the defending champs come playoff time about six months from now, the Pacers have certainly shored up their most pressing concerns. And these days, it's easy to see why the Heat might be the ones concerned. Indiana's message is sent, loud and clear.
    Last edited by able; 11-09-2013 at 07:13 AM. Reason: make sure there is a source/referral (A)

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    What a difference a year makes. One year ago we could barely even get on national TV. Now they're talking about us as potential favorites in the East. TNT had a scripted sub-segment about us last night even though we weren't playing a game that night. We've already had 1 ESPN game 5 games in. We are #1 in Stein's power rankings. Home game attendance appears to have skyrocketed.

    This is pretty awesome. Regardless of how far we get in the postseason (and I have very high expectations for this squad), I'm going to make sure and enjoy every last tiny bit of this season. Exposure and team quality at this level don't come around very often...

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    We'll find out.
    In June.

    Both of these teams are far, far beyond making any sort of statements to each other in borderline-meaningless regular season contests.

    The heat are the NBA's best team until someone eliminates them. Period.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The heat are the NBA's best team until someone eliminates them. Period.
    Last year was last year. The Heat was last year's best team. This isn't boxing where they hold a belt until someone takes it away. The NBA's best team this year is yet to be identified.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Here's a image capture of the article just in case people need to know what stock images were used.

    http://i.imgur.com/UKBKc75.jpg

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    We'll have to wait to see if the whole "Heat are just waiting for the playoffs" talk is true.


    Carmel HS Class of 2011

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    you know what's nice? THIS http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings

    When's the last time you saw a power ranking with Indiana at number 1? I don't care that it's early in the season, **** still has me pumed!

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The heat are the NBA's best team until someone eliminates them. Period.
    Good soundbite, but it's obvious that's not always true. Just because you win the championship one year, doesn't make you the best team the next year.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 11-09-2013 at 06:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    But Kstat had a point.
    LeBron and the Heat coasted during early regular season last year, and than boom they have the winning streak.

    The Heat might be still in sleep mode and they can still dominate in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Good soundbite, but it's obvious that's not always true. Just because you win the championship one year, doesn't make you the best team the next year.
    No, you win or lose that title in the playoffs.

    Until then, you get the benefit of the doubt, no matter what you do in the regular season.

    The "championship belt" exists. It's the respect you earn as the 2-time reigning champion. You can't win or lose it until elimination time.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Heat are the Champs until proven otherwise.

    Anywho, I don't really buy that the Heat just cruise. These guys definitely go out and try to win. Things aren't as desperate, and like every other team they go through their struggles, but they definitely aren't coasting. Plus, While I think Chicago and Pacers are probably desperate for homecourt advantage, there is no way that the Heat want to give that up. Homecourt is huge, and frankly I think the Heat would have lost to the Spurs if they didn't have homecourt advantage.

    That's something Heat want, and will try to pursue.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    In June.

    Both of these teams are far, far beyond making any sort of statements to each other in borderline-meaningless regular season contests.

    The heat are the NBA's best team until someone eliminates them. Period.
    Careful saying "Period.".

    But I agree. Until we knock them off in the post season, they are the champs and will remain that. I don't think anyone else can stop the Heat including Chicago unless DRose returns to form which might not happen this year or ever.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The heat are the NBA's best team until someone eliminates them. Period.
    The above is the statement I took exception to. It's not true.

    If the heat win the title this year, that means you are saying the Heat would be the BEST team next year too.

    That's nonsense! For example what if Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all go to a different team next year and Miami starts to rebuild. Saying they are the best team would be silly.

    If you want to say they are the champion until someone eliminates them, that's fine I'll buy that statement, but to say they are the best team . . .no!

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    No, you win or lose that title in the playoffs.

    Until then, you get the benefit of the doubt, no matter what you do in the regular season.

    The "championship belt" exists. It's the respect you earn as the 2-time reigning champion. You can't win or lose it until elimination time.
    So as of right now, the Ravens are the NFL's best team. Got it.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    The above is the statement I took exception to. It's not true.

    If the heat win the title this year, that means you are saying the Heat would be the BEST team next year too.

    That's nonsense! For example what if Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all go to a different team next year and Miami starts to rebuild. Saying they are the best team would be silly.

    If you want to say they are the champion until someone eliminates them, that's fine I'll buy that statement, but to say they are the best team . . .no!
    This is a tad obtuse.

    Of course if a team jettisons their core, it's an exception. Last I checked, Miami's core is still intact. The guys that won the last two titles are still there.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    This is a tad obtuse.

    Of course if a team jettisons their core, it's an exception. Last I checked, Miami's core is still intact. The guys that won the last two titles are still there.
    You're the one who said they get the benefit of the doubt "no matter what".

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smits Happens View Post
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    You're the one who said they get the benefit of the doubt "no matter what".
    Right. The lebron/wade/bosh heat get the benefit of the doubt no matter what. The regular season does nothing to change their status.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Right. The lebron/wade/bosh heat get the benefit of the doubt no matter what.
    Fine if that's your opinion, but to be fair, you didn't give that qualifier previously.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smits Happens View Post
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    Fine if that's your opinion, but to be fair, you didn't give that qualifier previously.
    I didn't think I had to state the obvious.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    After winning two championships and barely losing one no team can say they are better than the heat until the heat are beat. You cannot be considered any worse when you have not lost players.


    the heat will not even start playing until mid January. Turn it up some in march and actually play to their potential in June. Judging them no is just laughable because they do the same thing every year.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    The above is the statement I took exception to. It's not true.

    If the heat win the title this year, that means you are saying the Heat would be the BEST team next year too.

    That's nonsense! For example what if Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all go to a different team next year and Miami starts to rebuild. Saying they are the best team would be silly.

    If you want to say they are the champion until someone eliminates them, that's fine I'll buy that statement, but to say they are the best team . . .no!

    Well I don't think that anyone would have ever said that the 1999 Chicago Bulls were the best team until proven otherwise after they lost Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Philip. Obviously their recent championships meant nothing as far as that pitiful 1999 team was concerned.

    But the Heat are still basically the same team as the one that has been to the Finals three straight seasons and won two championships. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are still there. They've earned the respect of being considered the best team until someone in the East eliminates them on the court. We may very well win more regular season games than Miami this season, but we're never going to be a better team than them until we go out there and beat them in 4 out of 7 when it matters most. Like them or not, the Heat have earned that respect. For three straight seasons, everyone in the East has failed to take them out.

    It's like the Lakers a few years ago. They made the Finals three straight years and were back to back champs. They earned the right to be considered the best team until Dallas rightfully took it away from them. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers are another good example. They won three straight rings and no one else in the West could be considered better until the Spurs knocked them out in 2003. The Heat obviously aren't going to win titles until infinity, but some other East team is going to have to prove it on the court by sending them packing.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-09-2013 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Right. The lebron/wade/bosh heat get the benefit of the doubt no matter what. The regular season does nothing to change their status.
    Hmmm, I wonder why polls and rankings go up and down?

    Adios.

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    Default Re: Insider request: Are Pacers better than the Heat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Hmmm, I wonder why polls and rankings go up and down?

    Adios.
    Because this isn't figure skating and polls and rankings do not determine anything real. They're something fun for fans to fawn over, nothing more.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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