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Thread: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

  1. #151
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Larry's #2 in Kevin Pritchard is a big advanced stat guy, so Larry must put quite the amount of confidence in them. I think Larry probably uses common sense and relies on both.
    Use both?! Common sense?!

    HOW DARE YOU, SIR?!!


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  3. #152
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And if I want to know who won the game but I wasn't able to watch it I'm SOL because I shouldn't use the numbers defined by who made more points.

    See, I can do the same thing.

    No one is saying stats are for everything. But they can help you in your thinking of whether that quick, bad shot was an anomaly (because the player makes most of his quick shots) or if it was usual (because the player doesn't make quick shots). Sitting a player in the habit of taking quick, bad shots is a good idea. Sitting one who took a shot that looked bad but was actually where he makes it most of the time is not a good idea.
    So I can't watch the game or games of the team I follow and know that when a player takes a quick, bad shot it is an anomaly versus simply something to expect from them because it happens frequently? Or it is something they frequently do in a certain situation? I need advanced metrics to tell me that.... got it.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Why not? Instead of completely dismissing the stat by pointing out an outlier, wouldn't it rather demand an explanation why the problem with the stat for the outlier applies to the player in question?
    Sounds good. I'm losing track of all the discussions on this, but it seems like the stats proponents are NOT doing that, but instead just saying the stat doesn't tell if a player is good or not.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    We're all still a little traumatized by a previous coach who seemed to rely too much on statistics to evaluate his own players, but that doesn't mean they are somehow useless in that context.


    Well done.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Except that advanced stats always indicated that Murphy is not that helpful for winning basketball games
    How does he do with TS%?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The stat was brought up to combat the claim that Granger is just a chucker. You know, using stats to combat the bias people have in their eyes. And then people started arguing against the stat, because it just can't be true that Danny is actually an efficient scorer, and just not a chucker.

    Which is why this eyeball is the best argument is kinda loopy, because we are human and our biasness influences what we see. Numbers remove those bias, and give us cold hard numbers, that have no feelings about a situation.
    If you don't think Danny was a chucker, you're just some virgin reading math books!

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Why in the world are we talking about Troy Murphy? It's a strawman argument, because NO ONE is saying Troy Murphy is good because of his TS%.

    Let me repeat that again, NO ONE is saying Troy Murphy is good because he has a good TS%. How hard is it to understand that TS% doesn't mean good basketball player? The whole point of this thread is to put the stat into proper context, so this Troy Murphy argument doesn't have to be had. Good lord.
    Apparently, it's extremely hard for some people.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    How does he do with TS%?
    54.1% for his career which is above average. But that doesn't mean that he is a good player. Heck, it doesn't even mean that he is an average player.

    You are misinterpreting TS% once again. It is NOT a measure of how good a player is. It never was and no one claimed that it is.

    So, I honestly cannot understand why you still continue with this strawman of an argument.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    As with everything, the truth lies in the middle. If you only use your eyes, you will occasionally misjudge a player, either for good or for ill. There might be a guy who doesn't look that great, but perhaps he has an elite skill that your team is lacking, making the sum of his contribution better than what you actually see on the floor because the other players play better. Likewise, if you only rely on advanced stats, you are going to miss out on some nuances to a players game that don't show up in the stats, such as, "hey, this guy likes to go to strip clubs while carrying a gun" or "if someone throws a beer on this guy, he's going to drag our franchise down for the next decade."

    The point is, use the stats as an objective way to quantify a particular aspect of a player or team. Use your eyes to see if that player subjectively is helping your team win. I think as we go forward, there will be fewer and fewer players that cause large disagreement between stats guys and eyeball guys.

    Just for fun, can we have the stats and eyeball guys give their opinioins on two players who have had interesting statistical careers? Namely, Shane Battier and Rudy Gay. My feelings are that they eyeball guys should love Battier and be relatively neutral on Gay, whereas the stats guys should me neutral on Battier and hate Gay.

    Back on topic: TS% is a great stat to see who is offensively efficient. It says nothing about any other aspect of their game. And to answer the topic title, there's no debate, TS% is a more accurate reflection of a player's ability to score the ball than FG%.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The stat was originally brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think.
    NO! That's simply wrong, my friend. The stat was never brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think. The stat was only brought up to show that Granger was an efficient scorer. That's it. Because that's the only thing that TS% measures. It doesn't measure how good a player is. It measures how efficient a scorer is and only that.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Here is the disconnect I'm seeing.... Some of you are arguing for stats above common sense. That might not be your intention but that is what it comes down to reading the text. I'm not saying the stats have no value, but their value needs to be in context. A player's efficiency stats might be great but what if they don't line up with the big picture? You analyze the stats but you don't live and die by them. If you argue too much for the stats then you're going to get push back because there's a reason the games are played on the court.

    One person's bias might be another person's deeper understanding.... And stats get trotted out at times when their context is dubious at best. Then you read the defense of the stats and you question if the person using the stats is even dealing with a full understanding of the stat, let alone the context for which is is ultimately intended.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Here is the disconnect I'm seeing.... Some of you are arguing for stats above common sense. That might not be your intention but that is what it comes down to reading the text.
    Really? I write use both with common sense, and you read it as stats above common sense?

    It's like talking to a brick wall at this point.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    NO! That's simply wrong, my friend. The stat was never brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think. The stat was only brought up to show that Granger was an efficient scorer. That's it. Because that's the only thing that TS% measures. It doesn't measure how good a player is. It measures how efficient a scorer is and only that.
    Now on that note, since he is a good defender based on the few measurements we do have, and he is an efficient scorer, and a high volume scorer on top of that... To go along with adequate defense I WOULD argue that he's better than most people think. But it takes gathering different info to come to this conclusion.

    See how that works.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    NO! That's simply wrong, my friend. The stat was never brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think. The stat was only brought up to show that Granger was an efficient scorer. That's it. Because that's the only thing that TS% measures. It doesn't measure how good a player is. It measures how efficient a scorer is and only that.
    I disagree with this... the stat was brought up, or certainly latched onto and defended by some, to show that Granger was a better player than he was allegedly getting credit for. The stat got misused, misapplied, and misinterpreted along the way. Regardless of it's first mention, that's where it ended up.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Some of you are arguing for stats above common sense.
    No. No one is arguing for stats above common sense. The problem is that some of you completely dismiss stats because they disagree with your "eyeballs" or something.

    Eindar is absolutely right. We should use both. I always use both. But it is just so annoying when people completely dismiss a stat simply because it doesn't agree with their bias in disliking a certain player.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I disagree with this... the stat was brought up, or certainly latched onto and defended by some, to show that Granger was a better player than he was allegedly getting credit for. The stat got misused, misapplied, and misinterpreted along the way. Regardless of it's first mention, that's where it ended up.
    No, it was brought up to show that he was an efficient scorer, and Sollozzo made the sarcastic comment about Danny being better than MJ, and it went from there. Only one side is thinking that TS% represents how good of an overally player is, and it's not the side arguing in favor of advanced stats. It was about efficiency in scoring, and only that.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I disagree with this... the stat was brought up, or certainly latched onto and defended by some, to show that Granger was a better player than he was allegedly getting credit for. The stat got misused, misapplied, and misinterpreted along the way. Regardless of it's first mention, that's where it ended up.
    YEah. because that's the one argument against Granger's game that he's an inefficient scorer. That he's a chucker.

    Most agree he plays good defense. Most agree he rebounds adequately. Most agree never turns the ball over. But they say he chucks. They're wrong. End of story.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, it was brought up to show that he was an efficient scorer, and Sollozzo made the sarcastic comment about Danny being better than MJ, and it went from there. Only one side is thinking that TS% represents how good of an overally player is, and it's not the side arguing in favor of advanced stats.

    I am honored that my sarcastic comment triggered about 12 pages of discussion when you combine the threads. Is this a Pacers Digest record?

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Where is Naptown Seth when you need him?

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I am honored that my sarcastic comment triggered about 12 pages of discussion when you combine the threads. Is this a Pacers Digest record?
    Sorry to beat the dead horse, but your comment did set it off. The discussion is stuck spinning it's tires, because some can't comprehend the fact that TS% doesn't say anything about how good a player is overall.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I disagree with this... the stat was brought up, or certainly latched onto and defended by some, to show that Granger was a better player than he was allegedly getting credit for. The stat got misused, misapplied, and misinterpreted along the way. Regardless of it's first mention, that's where it ended up.
    Here is the post that started it all:

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Granger has shot a higher percentage than PG (his season last year as a scorer) every year of his career. For his career he's a more efficient scorer than KOBE BRYANT. He was a scorer plain and simple. What's the point of spewing that ********? Or are just you that ignorant?
    As you can see, mattie never mentions the word better. He also mentions the word more efficient which is exactly what TS% measures.

    And here is the post that misused the stat for the first time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Rickey Pierce and Kyle Korver are better than Jordan on this list.

    This list is a way to artificially inflate three point chuckers.
    So, as you can see it was Sollozzo who started misusing and misinterpreting the stat. Absolutely no one of the "stat guys" has claimed that a higher TS% equals better player.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Really? I write use both with common sense, and you read it as stats above common sense?

    It's like talking to a brick wall at this point.
    I said this already but let me elaborate. You and I have common ground on this topic. I haven't replied a lot to you specifically throughout the thread because I know we do. I'm not arguing or debating points with you because there is so much common ground I don't see the point. You're simply misreading me or thinking some things are directed at you when they are not. The shoe doesn't fit so please don't try to wear it lol!

    We might disagree on the periphery or in the balance of the stats versus observations but we're not miles apart.

    IOW, I refuse to argue with you when ultimately we'd be on the same side in this thread.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I am honored that my sarcastic comment triggered about 12 pages of discussion when you combine the threads. Is this a Pacers Digest record?
    We had 3 different threads on Copeland, I think. Two of them went 20+ pages
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, it was brought up to show that he was an efficient scorer, and Sollozzo made the sarcastic comment about Danny being better than MJ, and it went from there. Only one side is thinking that TS% represents how good of an overally player is, and it's not the side arguing in favor of advanced stats. It was about efficiency in scoring, and only that.
    Well, this thread isn't even allegedly about Granger....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I said this already but let me elaborate. You and I have common ground on this topic. I haven't replied a lot to you specifically throughout the thread because I know we do. I'm not arguing or debating points with you because there is so much common ground I don't see the point. You're simply misreading me or thinking some things are directed at you when they are not. The shoe doesn't fit so please don't try to wear it lol!

    We might disagree on the periphery or in the balance of the stats versus observations but we're not miles apart.

    IOW, I refuse to argue with you when ultimately we'd be on the same side in this thread.
    Everyone else on the advanced stats side is agreeing with me too. That's my point here. You're making a strawman army to fight, because what you think people are saying, isn't what they're saying.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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