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Thread: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I bet if I was designing a videogame I'd be all over TS stats....

    But I'm not....
    Nah, they just use FG%.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But doesn't the very fact that certain factors must be chosen in the definition of the stat mean that potential bias and assumption is in play?
    PPS = points per shot = Points/FGA = pretty straight forward and objective
    eFG% = effective FG% = (3PA * 1.5) + 2PA / FGA = Adjusts the FG% for 3-pointers being worth 50% more than 2-pointers. (also known as AFG% or Adjusted FG%) It measures what that person would have shot from 2 point range to score the amount of points they scored off of all FGAs.
    TS% = True Shooting % = This one has already been explained go back and read that again.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    No. It just means that some stats measure things that other stats do not.

    For example, FG% measures how often a player hits any kind of field goal. However, it does not account for the fact that a 3 point shot is worth more than a 2 point shot. That's what eFG% does. It accounts for that fact. TS% takes it a step further and also accounts for FTs.

    Every single one of those stats simply records what happens on the court. There is no bias or assumption taken into play with them.
    Ok, clearly stated and makes sense.

    Now, couldn't we say that when FG% was originally trotted out as an "accepted" stat that there was a bias against guys that score a lot from free throws?

    So . . . TS% was invented to help with that bias problem.

    Now, maybe we haven't figured out what the biases may be with TS% just yet, but considering that it was created by "biased" human beings full of "assumptions" (you guys words) isn't it a decent possibility?
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It's funny you say that. Not the same thing, but similar... Prior to the draft, a players athleticism is accurately measured. How fast he is, how quick he is, how strong he is, and how high he can jump. All are simply measured. Well, the same people in this thread that reject stats, also reject the truth that Lance Stephenson isn't actually that athletic.

    While athleticism doesn't necessarily correlate to a great basketball player, (so who cares if he's athletic or not), but comparatively Lance isn't that athletic. He's strong, and he's long. But he's slow, and not too quick with a poor vertical.

    The stupid agenda always gets in the way of seeing things how they are. Lance could turn into a star because he learns to be a great basketball player. But that'll never change the fact that he's just not that athletic.
    That's a different argument, though. I also disagree with what you're saying.

    The pre-draft measurements are really important but they do not include everything. Unfortunately, there are some parts of athleticism that cannot be measured. Hand-eye coordination is one of those parts. The ability to maneuver in the air is another one. To top it off those numbers (except height and length) are not set in stone. Some players become faster while others decline athletically and become older. This is a much more complex issue than the one we're talking about.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's a different argument, though. I also disagree with what you're saying.

    The pre-draft measurements are really important but they do not include everything. Unfortunately, there are some parts of athleticism that cannot be measured. Hand-eye coordination is one of those parts. The ability to maneuver in the air is another one. To top it off those numbers (except height and length) are not set in stone. Some players become faster while others decline athletically and become older. This is a much more complex issue than the one we're talking about.
    Fair enough.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    In the midst of all the nuttiness, this is an interesting post. Although I'm not sure what the point was. (And I'm being serious.) I liked the bold part.
    It was meant to say that human memory is by definition biased - just going by what we remember we see is nearly always flawed. Creating a way to actually track it (in its simplest form, by counting) is more accurate even if sometimes what you're counting is subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Ok, clearly stated and makes sense.

    Now, couldn't we say that when FG% was originally trotted out as an "accepted" stat that there was a bias against guys that score a lot from free throws?

    So . . . TS% was invented to help with that bias problem.

    Now, maybe we haven't figured out what the biases may be with TS% just yet, but considering that it was created by "biased" human beings full of "assumptions" (you guys words) isn't it a decent possibility?
    You're confusing "incomplete" with "biased"

    An unsupported observation is biased because there's no way to show whether it is correct or not. "Biased" does not mean "wrong", it means "built in level of inaccuracy". Something that is inaccurate in bulk can be right every once in a while - a stopped clock is right twice a day, a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes, and so on.

    A statistic is incomplete because it accurately measures what it is asked to measure but then can be adjusted to accurately measure something else. FG% isn't wrong, it just turned out not to be the best measure for what people were trying to compare. It is still an "accepted" stat.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    . . . Seriously these arguments are getting mundane, they don't even make sense, it's like saying 1+1 does not equal 2.
    I agree with you about the arguments. But, FWIW, in base two 1 + 1 = 10

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Just wanted to pop in and say great thread all around! Thanks guys its been awhile since we've had a thread this good here

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    No, I'm talking about how the actions of an individual affect the team's shooting efficiency. I think that's a better metric. I think the Association of Math book Fat Chick Lovers have a flawed approach.
    So, you admit that what you're talking about has nothing to do with TS%. You're talking about team shooting efficiency while the statistic in question keeps track of individual shooting efficiency. They are just two different things.

    You are free to create your own metric, my friend. I will even support you on that venture if I can be of any help. But what you're talking about is simply not related with the initial argument of this thread.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    It's that kind of like how everyone accepts bonnets and beards in the Amish community?
    Huh?
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Ok, clearly stated and makes sense.

    Now, couldn't we say that when FG% was originally trotted out as an "accepted" stat that there was a bias against guys that score a lot from free throws?

    So . . . TS% was invented to help with that bias problem.

    Now, maybe we haven't figured out what the biases may be with TS% just yet, but considering that it was created by "biased" human beings full of "assumptions" (you guys words) isn't it a decent possibility?
    No, FG% wasn't biased against guys that score a lot from FTs. You do not get a FGA when you're fouled so you weren't punished for going to the line. It just didn't account for them since a Free Throw is different from a Field Goal. That's a very basic definition of basketball that is accepted and understood by anyone who plays or watches the game.

    As the game evolved the statistics of the game evolved as well. The 3 point shot was inserted and it created havoc. Before its insertion you knew that 1 FGM = 2 points and 1 FTM = 1 point. That was it.

    But insertion of the 3 point shot blurred the field. 1 FGM was no longer necessary equal with 2 points. It could be equal with 2 or 3 points. So, a new stat had to be created in order to account for the fact that a 3 point shot is worth more than a 2 point shot. That's why eFG% was created.

    The game continued to evolve and the need to account for and 1s and FTs appeared as well. That's why TS% was created.

    Again, TS% does not contain any kind of bias or assumption. It's a simple formula that comes from the combination of 2P%, 3P% and FT%.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Last edited by FlavaDave; 11-06-2013 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    On the first page of this thread you were giving BBall a hard time for not valuing the stat. For the next two pages you were trying to figure out the stat. You didn't understand it. You were confused.

    So, the "farce" accusations can go both ways.
    Sorry, that doesn't work, and here's why: I never denied the stat had a purpose, I never said it was useless, and I never mocked people for using it. You guys have and do. Big difference between 'trying to figure it out' and 'this is stupid'.

    This is just another example of trying to make two sides appear equal when they are not.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    You're confusing "incomplete" with "biased"
    Exactly.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    You are talking about the concept of an efficient offense as a team. TS% records individual shooting efficiency. They are two different things.
    Another case of punishing a stat for not being something it never even claimed to be.

    This still boils down to misunderstanding statistics on a fundamental level.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    This is getting (amazingly) more ridiculous. Next I suppose we're going to laugh and dismiss measuring a player's height before draft night because it leaves out important details and is thus useless.

    Plus, this pseudo-relativism junk about redefining efficiency to deny a stat that clearly establishes its own parameters is such a farce.

    Hooray for willful and stubborn ignorance, you guys!
    You are better than this and quite frankly it makes you look foolish to act this way. And it doesn't help the thread.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Not really, if you were programming a NBA video game you would focus more on stats such as 2P%, 3P%, % of 3PA, etc. When creating a video game you are focused on behavior within extremely specific circumstances. TS% is too broad of a stat to be useful for a video game AI routine.
    Right. They look at stats that give them success/fail rates on certain player actions, the more specific and isolated, the better. TS% merges mulitple things into one number, so it wouldn't be particularly useful. They also look at tendencies, fatigue, etc.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Pretty much.


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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Nobody has denied stats have relevance.

    Everyone accepts that TS tries to measure offensive efficiency as it relates to individual scoring.

    So exactly what are some of you arguing about or wanting others of us to accept so as not to be "ignorant"?

    I think I can speak for most who've ended up on the other side of this debate that in a nutshell all we are saying is that TS alone doesn't tell us much about a player or the team game of basketball.

    Everytime a bigger picture scenario has been painted the fallback argument is "It's just a stat to tell us efficiency. Not how good a player is or who is better".
    Well, great... IOW it's a tiny piece of a large puzzle that has many larger pieces that also must be considered. So why argue to the death for TS as if next to the scoreboard it's the most important stat. Because that is how I read many of you.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    You are talking about the concept of an efficient offense as a team. TS% records individual shooting efficiency. They are two different things.
    I am talking about an individual's contribution to the efficiency of team shooting. You could only include the obvious measurable aspect of the individual's contribution to team shooting efficiency by throwing the ball in the basket, but you could also include what he does as an individual to affect the team's shooting efficiency.

    I was asked to list things that would affect "efficiency." I was not asked to narrow it to individual or team efficiency. You might say it was implied, but it wasn't for me.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    You are better than this and quite frankly it makes you look foolish to act this way. And it doesn't help the thread.
    McKeyFan is way better than this as well but that doesn't stop him from acting condescending in the last few pages.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I think I can speak for most who've ended up on the other side of this debate that in a nutshell all we are saying is that TS alone doesn't tell us much about a player or the team game of basketball.

    Everytime a bigger picture scenario has been painted the fallback argument is "It's just a stat to tell us efficiency. Not how good a player is or who is better".
    Well, great... IOW it's a tiny piece of a large puzzle that has many larger pieces that also must be considered. So why argue to the death for TS as if next to the scoreboard it's the most important stat. Because that is how I read many of you.
    If that was the case then the thread would have died 4 pages ago.

    NO one saying that TS% alone says anything more than the shooting efficiency of a player. Absolutely no one. That's what I was saying in the start of the thread when I was talking about taking the stat "at face value".

    I absolutely agree that TS% is a small part of a much larger puzzle. I never argued anything else.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

     photo statsandfatgirl.jpg
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    If anyone should be 'better than this' with regards to ANY of this ongoing discussion, it should be all of the people who are constantly bending over backwards to criticize, condescend, and otherwise essentially dismiss a simple tool of measurement as if it's some kind of voodoo evil. It's absolutely absurd.

    And when it keeps going for long enough, especially through stubbornness and occasional moments of mockery, yeah, it's going to cause some fangs to show at least some of the time. If you're going to act this way, you should at least own up to the kind of reaction it's likely going to trigger.

    Frankly, a lot of us have been more restrained than we had to be, but after round after round after round of hearing the ignorance drum booming in our ears, and then being mocked as if WE'RE the ones who have a problem, yeah, that's going to start pissing people off sometimes. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I mostly restrain myself, that's ultimately on you guys.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This is why I keep reading; I have to admit I'm a sucker for your humor.

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