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Thread: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

  1. #301
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    The "factors" chosen in TS% are chosen because of the number of points various shots are worth. The factor concerning free throws attempted was chosen because it matched the observed frequency of free throw shots taken by players in NBA games. Nothing is arbitrarily chosen.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    This is getting (amazingly) more ridiculous. Next I suppose we're going to laugh and dismiss measuring a player's height before draft night because it leaves out important details and is thus useless.

    Plus, this pseudo-relativism junk about redefining efficiency to deny a stat that clearly establishes its own parameters is such a farce.

    Hooray for willful and stubborn ignorance, you guys!

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    I bet if I was designing a videogame I'd be all over TS stats....

    But I'm not....
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Apparently the definition is not very well accepted by some. If there "HAS" to be an accepted definition, and there isn't one, then maybe that's why this particular stat is failing in its "purpose" to "communicate."
    I don't understand what you are arguing, are you claiming Statistics and the Math is wrong ? The concept of efficiency goes back to original statistics, if you are saying it is has no basis, you basically are saying the entire field of Statistics made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    This is getting (amazingly) more ridiculous. Next I suppose we're going to laugh and dismiss measuring a player's height before draft night because it leaves out important details and is thus useless.

    Plus, this pseudo-relativism junk about redefining efficiency to deny a stat that clearly establishes its own parameters is such a farce.

    Hooray for willful and stubborn ignorance, you guys!

    Seriously these arguments are getting mundane, they don't even make sense, it's like saying 1+1 does not equal 2.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    This is getting (amazingly) more ridiculous. Next I suppose we're going to laugh and dismiss measuring a player's height before draft night because it leaves out important details and is thus useless.

    Plus, this pseudo-relativism junk about redefining efficiency to deny a stat that clearly establishes its own parameters is such a farce.

    Hooray for willful and stubborn ignorance, you guys!
    On the first page of this thread you were giving BBall a hard time for not valuing the stat. For the next two pages you were trying to figure out the stat. You didn't understand it. You were confused.

    So, the "farce" accusations can go both ways.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-06-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But doesn't the very fact that certain factors must be chosen in the definition of the stat mean that potential bias and assumption is in play?
    Um, no. I'm not sure how to react to this post. I've never seen anyone ever question the objectivity of FGM/FGA = Shooting%.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    By your definition of efficiency. I think having everyone on the floor feeling positive and not angry will help every player make more shots. I'm not real sure about rocket fuel and energy inputs and all that stuff Bill was talking about, but I'm all for happy players.
    I'm all for happy players as well but what you are arguing has nothing to do with shooting efficiency.

    What you're arguing has to do with how well a player plays within the team's offense. That's a pretty important part of basketball that cannot be measured efficiently yet. I certainly hope that the SportVU cameras will help us keep tracks of important stuff like that.

    But the thing is that this has nothing to do with TS%. A player can have a high TS% and not play within the offense. Conversely, a player can have a low TS% but play within the offense. It's just two seperate things.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Hicks, on the first page of this thread you were giving BBall a hard time for not valuing the stat. For the next two pages you were trying to figure out the stat. You didn't understand it. You were confused.

    So, the "farce" accusations can go both ways.
    No. He was just wondering how the equation could be figured different ways. The results are the same. Same equation. Fair question.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I certainly hope that the SportVU cameras will help us keep tracks of important stuff like that.
    Going to need more than cameras. Probably need to bring in a sports psychiatrist to have debriefings on the feelings each player had on each player possession. That way we can put temmate tension on a 1-10 scale, and factor it into shooting efficiency.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Who? Allen Iverson? He is the only player I can think of who would take that many shots.
    It was Kobe. I forgot to write his name

    Sorry about that and thanks for the catch.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    On the first page of this thread you were giving BBall a hard time for not valuing the stat. For the next two pages you were trying to figure out the stat. You didn't understand it. You were confused.

    So, the "farce" accusations can go both ways.
    Except that in the first page of the thread he was 100% correct on what the stat does. This is because the simple, no-numbers explanation of the stat says exactly what the stat does. The confusion was there because from the reduced formula it is not directly clear that the stat is doing exactly what it says it is. So he was questioning his understand to see if he was in fact wrong with his initial arguments.

    If, however, you expand the formula it becomes apparent that mathematically it is doing exactly what the explanation says.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Um, no. I'm not sure how to react to this post.
    You could start by reacting to the first three on the list.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  22. #313
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    This is getting (amazingly) more ridiculous. Next I suppose we're going to laugh and dismiss measuring a player's height before draft night because it leaves out important details and is thus useless.

    Plus, this pseudo-relativism junk about redefining efficiency to deny a stat that clearly establishes its own parameters is such a farce.

    Hooray for willful and stubborn ignorance, you guys!
    It's funny you say that. Not the same thing, but similar... Prior to the draft, a players athleticism is accurately measured. How fast he is, how quick he is, how strong he is, and how high he can jump. All are simply measured. Well, the same people in this thread that reject stats, also reject the truth that Lance Stephenson isn't actually that athletic.

    While athleticism doesn't necessarily correlate to a great basketball player, (so who cares if he's athletic or not), but comparatively Lance isn't that athletic. He's strong, and he's long. But he's slow, and not too quick with a poor vertical.

    The stupid agenda always gets in the way of seeing things how they are. Lance could turn into a star because he learns to be a great basketball player. But that'll never change the fact that he's just not that athletic.
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    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It's funny you say that. Not the same thing, but similar... Prior to the draft, a players athleticism is accurately measured. How fast he is, how quick he is, how strong he is, and how high he can jump. All are simply measured. Well, the same people in this thread that reject stats, also reject the truth that Lance Stephenson isn't actually that athletic.

    While athleticism doesn't necessarily correlate to a great basketball player, (so who cares if he's athletic or not), but comparatively Lance isn't that athletic. He's strong, and he's long. But he's slow, and not too quick.

    The stupid agenda always gets in the way of seeing things how they are. Lance could turn into a star because he learns to be a great basketball player. But that'll never change the fact that he's just not that athletic.
    I might chew my own fingers off, if what I'm actually going to say defends the same people, but the difference there could be based off of what each person is comparing Lance too. In relation to normal people, Lance is really athletic. In relation to professional athletes, he's not all that special. If you're anything but a 7ft plodder, you're athletic if you're a NBA player. That goes for Tyler H. or even JJ Redick, no matter how many times people laugh at the notion.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I was talking about the concept of efficiency.
    You are talking about the concept of an efficient offense as a team. TS% records individual shooting efficiency. They are two different things.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I bet if I was designing a videogame I'd be all over TS stats....

    But I'm not....
    Not really, if you were programming a NBA video game you would focus more on stats such as 2P%, 3P%, % of 3PA, etc. When creating a video game you are focused on behavior within extremely specific circumstances. TS% is too broad of a stat to be useful for a video game AI routine.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    You are talking about the concept of an efficient offense as a team. TS% records individual shooting efficiency. They are two different things.
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I might chew my own fingers off, if what I'm actually going to say defends the same people, but the difference there could be based off of what each person is comparing Lance too. In relation to normal people, Lance is really athletic. In relation to professional athletes, he's not all that special. If you're anything but a 7ft plodder, you're athletic if you're a NBA player. That goes for Tyler H. or even JJ Redick, no matter how many times people laugh at the notion.
    Yes, and I've noted that nearly every time when I've mentioned before. Obviously Lance is an outstanding athlete. But in comparison (I did not expound upon it above, but i noted) to NBA athletes, Lance is below average.

    The point is, many people assume Lance is more likely to succeed because he's a more exceptional athlete than most of his competition. It's not true. His competition is faster, quicker, and can jump higher.
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    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Apparently the definition is not very well accepted by some. If there "HAS" to be an accepted definition, and there isn't one, then maybe that's why this particular stat is failing in its "purpose" to "communicate."
    Some stats like PER are not accepted by everyone. On the other hand, TS% is accepted by everyone in the stats community
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Plus, I think it is important that a player always has at least one strength they can take advantage of. Lance is built like a Mack truck. He can, and will always be able to bully opponents with his strength. That is a huge weapon. So I wouldn't say the guy doesn't have things going for him. He does. But he's not like Paul, who simply outclasses nearly ever opponent other than Durant and LBJ.
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    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    You are talking about the concept of an efficient offense as a team. TS% records individual shooting efficiency. They are two different things.
    No, I'm talking about how the actions of an individual affect the team's shooting efficiency. I think that's a better metric. I think the Association of Math book Fat Chick Lovers have a flawed approach.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    No, I'm talking about how the actions of an individual affect the team's shooting efficiency. I think that's a better metric. I think the Association of Math book Fat Chick Lovers have a flawed approach.
    Keep throwing **** at the walls...
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    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Some stats like PER are not accepted by everyone. On the other hand, TS% is accepted by everyone in the stats community
    It's that kind of like how everyone accepts bonnets and beards in the Amish community?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  41. #324
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    It's that kind of like how everyone accepts bonnets and beards in the Amish community?

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But doesn't the very fact that certain factors must be chosen in the definition of the stat mean that potential bias and assumption is in play?
    No. It just means that some stats measure things that other stats do not.

    For example, FG% measures how often a player hits any kind of field goal. However, it does not account for the fact that a 3 point shot is worth more than a 2 point shot. That's what eFG% does. It accounts for that fact. TS% takes it a step further and also accounts for FTs.

    Every single one of those stats simply records what happens on the court. There is no bias or assumption taken into play with them.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

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