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Thread: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

  1. #201

    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Mattie your the poster boy for searching for a stat to prove your point. Yo've posted simple ratings to show how Danny compares to some of the real superstars in the league smh. Then you posted some other stat to prove that Danny was our best defender in 11-12 lol. Don't act like you're innocent with all this misinterpretation of statistics.

    You have to understand the game and how it's played BEFORE you can apply the numbers.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 11-06-2013 at 02:44 PM.

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  3. #202
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    How are they bad shots, if they're going in?

    The term chucker represents someone who is an inefficient shooter, who shoots a lot. So someone who has a high TS%, isn't a chucker.
    I think the term chucker is someone is shoots the ball a lot. Not necessarily, and likely not in the framework of the offense, nor situationally to the game itself. Whether they hit or not is not a factor to the term. Although a chucker that hits will probably be embraced by more people than a chucker who misses everything.

    At least that is how I use it...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I never said stats were useless. That would be an incorrect blanket statement and characterization.
    What's the difference between useless and meaningless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    There may not be a more meaningless stat than this. Seriously. Just watch the game. That will tell you what you need to know. This stat will confirm what you are seeing after the fact. But it won't tell you crap to look at the stat and then make predictions from it.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  6. #204
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    I see...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It's IMHO an absolutely pointless stat.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I think the term chucker is someone is shoots the ball a lot. Not necessarily, and likely not in the framework of the offense, nor situationally to the game itself. Whether they hit or not is not a factor to the term. Although a chucker that hits will probably be embraced by more people than a chucker who misses everything.

    At least that is how I use it...
    The term is used with a negative connotation.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  9. #206
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    No... But on another note, it's easy to see how badly I kicked CJ's ***. Dude can't help but come in and make a smartass comment every chance he gets. Why? Because he knows I made him look like the fool he is. Poor guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Mattie your the poster boy for searching for a stat to prove your point. Yo've posted simple ratings to show how Danny compares to some of the real superstars in the league smh. Then you posted some other stat to prove that Danny was our best defender in 11-12 lol. Don't act like your innocent with all this misinterpretation of statistics.

    You have to understand the game and how it's played BEFORE you can apply the numbers.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

  10. #207
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The term is used with a negative connotation.
    Agreed...
    But it's a negative even if the ball is going in if it has a negative impact on the offensive framework overall and team goals.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #208
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    CJ, I value your basketball knowledge just above Croz's. Which means... well it means nothing really, I don't value your opinion at all. However, the good news is, I think Vnz takes your opinion seriously. So that's a plus. =)
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

  12. #209
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Agreed...
    But it's a negative even if the ball is going in if it has a negative impact on the offensive framework overall and team goals.
    Who is negative about efficient scoring?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  14. #210
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The stat shows player efficiency. I think we can all agree to that.
    It shows scoring efficiency, to be precise. PER is the stat that shows overall offensive player efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The stat was used to bolster the argument that Granger should start over Lance when he returns. Can we not agree to that? Everything goes off the rails from that point forward.
    No, we cannot. Mattie didn't use TS% in order to bolster the argument that Granger should start over Lance.

    Mattie used TS% in order to debunk some people's argument that Granger is an "inefficient chucker". There is a difference between the two.

    I am glad that we found where the original disconnect lies, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    True, it was used to counter the "Danny is a chucker" side of the argument. But it didn't have the impact imagined and people dug in their heels.
    And that's the problem. Even when people where presented with facts that indicate that Granger is not a chucker they still dug in their heels and they refused to acknowledge that maybe Granger is not a chucker after all. They refused to think of the possibility that maybe it's their personal biases that have painted the picture of him being a chucker.

    I will give an example here. When I started following the NBA and watched some of my first games I believed that Monta Ellis is ball-hog that just doesn't passes the ball. I disagreed with Vnzla a lot on this subject and he presented some facts that indicate that Ellis is actually a quite good passer. So, upon seeing those facts and watching more GS games closely I changed my tune and I accepted the fact that Ellis is a good passer.

    You see, sometimes our opinions are biased and stats can be used to keep us honest. I allowed my negative opinion on Monta's shot selection to influence my view on another part of his game and I was in the wrong to do it. Vnzla presented the facts and helped me understand that I was wrong about him on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    But as with any stat, there's a lot more to the game to be considered.
    Of course. No one is arguing against that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    One stat wasn't going to settle anything this nuanced.
    Obviously. No one said that a stat was going to settle that.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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  16. #211

    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    If you make one or two, then they could be bad shots. If you make most of them, all the time, then they are good shots that you can make.

    This is the Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan effect. If Dwight Howard takes a 3 pt shot, it is a bad shot because he normally won't make it. But if Kyle Korver takes the same shot, it is a good shot.

    The high TS% rating shows that guys take shots they can make because they did make them. A good TS% rating for a game can be an aberration, a good TS% rating for a season isn't.

    This is a good example of how you eyes and intuition can be misleading but stats can show you your mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If you break plays and take bad shots left and right, and hit them, you'll have a high TS... correct? So IOW there's more to look at than just this lone stat even if it's being used to refute the "Danny is a chucker" line. (Not saying Danny does or doesn't do that only that we'd need to look at a lot more info and that the TS is simply not the end of the story).

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  18. #212
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I've been wondering where he is. We're 4-0, but neither him or Peck are posting. It just doesn't feel right.
    The forum seems empty without Peck's Odd Thoughts and Seth's observations from the sidelines
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    The forum seems empty without Peck's Odd Thoughts and Seth's observations from the sidelines
    I agree. Maybe that's why people are a bit chippy.

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I never said stats were useless. That would be an incorrect blanket statement and characterization.

    I think the argument was Danny had become a chucker... not necessarily that he was 'inefficient'. More that his game had become rather 1 dimensional on offense... it was probably implied of course that he wasn't necessarily dead eye from there but there's more to it than that... Including the idea that maybe overall the team would be better served with less 3 attempts, especially quick 3's.

    Reggie was constantly running off screens for his 3's as part of the offense. We didn't really use Granger in this way. (Just in case someone wanted to talk about Reggie's 3's).
    Was Paul George a chucker last season?

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  23. #215
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I see...
    mattie,
    I've elaborated on that point several times in this thread. I stand by every one of the comments I've made. That stat, by itself and for your own team and core players, has very little value. It tells you nothing you can't glean from watching the games and doing simple comparatives with the box score.

    For scouting it has value. I don't think anyone else in this thread has even mentioned scouting except me.

    And if we're truthful this stat is only being talked about because it was brought up to defend the idea that Danny should start over Lance and was brought up to refute the "Danny is a chucker" argument.

    Now others have chimed in in defense of stats and that is all well and good. Some already had their positions staked out and are truly arguing strawman points because they aren't even reading and understanding entire posts. But nobody has really said stats don't have value. It's just that TS wasn't accepted as the holy grail in winning the argument that Danny should start over Lance.

    Anything else has just been subterfuge IMHO.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I never said stats were useless. That would be an incorrect blanket statement and characterization.
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I think the argument was Danny had become a chucker... not necessarily that he was 'inefficient'. More that his game had become rather 1 dimensional on offense... it was probably implied of course that he wasn't necessarily dead eye from there but there's more to it than that... Including the idea that maybe overall the team would be better served with less 3 attempts, especially quick 3's.
    As we know the verb "chucker" comes from the noun "chuck". The noun "chuck" means "a person who throws something". That's why some players that just throw the ball up there and hope that it goes in started to be called "chuckers". So, yeah the term "chucker" pretty much implies inefficiency.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  25. #217
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I said this already but let me elaborate. You and I have common ground on this topic. I haven't replied a lot to you specifically throughout the thread because I know we do. I'm not arguing or debating points with you because there is so much common ground I don't see the point. You're simply misreading me or thinking some things are directed at you when they are not. The shoe doesn't fit so please don't try to wear it lol!

    We might disagree on the periphery or in the balance of the stats versus observations but we're not miles apart.

    IOW, I refuse to argue with you when ultimately we'd be on the same side in this thread.
    "I refuse to respond to your arguments because you actually agree with me."

    D@mn, that is hysterical. Not "arguing" with you, just admiring the chutzpah.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  26. #218
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Who is negative about efficient scoring?
    You really read what I said and came up with this?

    You couldn't have.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  27. #219
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    The problem is that people from both "sides" have thanked Eindar's post which indicates that there is a lot of common ground between the two sides. Both "sides" seem to think that we should use both stats and "eyeball" but they also seem to think that the other "side" is arguing for one over the other.
    I thanked Eindar's thoughtful post. But at the end of the day, Intuition IS over Integers.

    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  28. #220
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    You really read what I said and came up with this?

    You couldn't have.
    Yeah, because why would the term chucking apply to someone who shoots a high percentage? Calling someone a chucker is an insult to their shooting. Who calls an efficient shooter, a chucker?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  30. #221
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    mattie,
    I've elaborated on that point several times in this thread. I stand by every one of the comments I've made. That stat, by itself and for your own team and core players, has very little value. It tells you nothing you can't glean from watching the games and doing simple comparatives with the box score.

    For scouting it has value. I don't think anyone else in this thread has even mentioned scouting except me.

    And if we're truthful this stat is only being talked about because it was brought up to defend the idea that Danny should start over Lance and was brought up to refute the "Danny is a chucker" argument.

    Now others have chimed in in defense of stats and that is all well and good. Some already had their positions staked out and are truly arguing strawman points because they aren't even reading and understanding entire posts. But nobody has really said stats don't have value. It's just that TS wasn't accepted as the holy grail in winning the argument that Danny should start over Lance.

    Anything else has just been subterfuge IMHO.
    This will not be the the third time I have to point out what you're saying is absolute ********.

    At no point did anyone EVER argue because of TS% Danny should start. In fact, the one person who brought it up, was ME. I made the argument Lance should KEEP the starting job. I did however argue people should stop making up ******** about Danny, to further their stupid ****ing arguments.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

  31. #222

    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Attachment 789
    You know who you are.

  32. #223
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    "I refuse to respond to your arguments because you actually agree with me."

    D@mn, that is hysterical. Not "arguing" with you, just admiring the chutzpah.
    I know Since balances what he sees on the court with the numbers and doesn't just blindly go to the numbers. He might use the two things and sometimes come to a different conclusion than me, but he's looking at the same things (whether ascribing the same weights or not). We could argue the conclusion of course, but that is not what this thread is about.

    So a big part of what he's arguing with me about "stats versus game observations" we're just not disagreeing about. Even if he doesn't see that.
    And I'm not saying he agrees with me, I'm saying I agree with him.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  34. #224
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Attachment 789
    You know who you are.
    You get points just for referencing Greg Gutfeld.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  35. #225
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    Default Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, because why would the term chucking apply to someone who shoots a high percentage? Calling someone a chucker is an insult to their shooting. Who calls an efficient shooter, a chucker?
    I guess I do because I agree with those that say Danny's game devolved into him being a chucker. He might be efficient at it according to TS, but he took a lot of bad, rushed shots according the the games I watched the season prior to last. But this thread isn't supposed to be about Danny.

    I don't know if we've even looked at the TS stats for the last full season Danny played and compared them to previous seasons. I've lost track. But all it would tell me is if Danny would be more selective with his shooting he'd have an even better TS.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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