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Thread: Turnovers

  1. #1
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    Default Turnovers

    I've been watching this season in hope that the Pacers would improve upon the one area in which I think can keep them out of the NBA Finals.

    Turnovers

    Games 1 and 3 we committed 20 turnovers, game 2 we had 16.

    This team has enough talent to overcome a high teen turnover number against a lot of teams in this league. At least during the regular season. During the playoffs, possessions will decrease, the defense will pick up and the opponents will be stronger. Committing turnovers in the mid to upper teens will spell defeat more often than not.

    I know three games is a very small sample and playoffs are months away but the Pacers seriously need to address team turnovers or their playoff run will be shorter than any of us want.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Turnovers

    Yea those turnovers make Pacers offense look brutal, and it isn't that pretty to begin with.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Turnovers

    what frustrates me is that many of these turnovers aren't forced because the other team was playing smothering defense, it seems so many are the result of things like lazy/cute passes and things like that. granted i haven't seen every moment of gameplay this year but, i have seen several jump-passes and other things that are avoidable and if they were cut out or mostly removed- things would get better in that dept.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    ya the turnovers suck. But hey, we are 3-0 with a problem that can be fixed with practice.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    ahhh the turnovers, those damn turnovers. I'm not sure how much of that problem can be fixed with practice though, seems like it's just a continuation of what was happening last season. To me it seems that first and foremost we don't have any good ball handlers on the team... maybe that's not completely true using the word "any" but we surely aren't deep in the ball handling department. I don't see that as something that can be corrected with practice while the season is underway, but something that should be addressed by each player during the off season. Paul does appear to be somewhat better at the dribble than he was last year, not a great deal better but just a little in my opinion.

    Anyway, I think we have a large stable of shooters/scorers but we still lack someone that can set them up and deliver the ball consistently. My thoughts are that we need a dedicated 1, which I don't think Hill is, but I get beat up on here anytime I say that.

    Other than that, we are still playing a high level of bball and winning despite the to's but I think it's completely obvious that we won't be dethroning the Heat if we can't address the problem. Their defense preys on teams that can't handle the ball under pressure, killed us last year against them and it'll happen again this season.

  8. #6
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turnovers

    You have to look at where the turnovers are coming from as well though. Sample size and all, but this year's turnovers don't look similar to last year's. Last year, a lot of those where coming from Paul George and Lance Stephenson, which is kind of expected when you ask a couple of 22 year olds to suddenly handle the ball a lot.

    This season, Paul G and Lance are doing quite well so far (Paul's 3+ TO/game may seem high, but he's also doing it on superstar usage rates) and it's the bigs especially who have atypical very high TO rates. Hibbert, West, Mahinmi, and Scola all are suffering from turnovers. (With Mahinmi though, this isn't atypical, alas). Not really sure why at this point, but the universal effect on the bigs suggests a scheme change.

    Sure, they need to clean it up at some point, but there's no reason to think that West and Scola especially won't go back to their usual low TO rates.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    We play a post heavy offense which tends to generate more turnovers than a standard drive and kick or PnR offenses that most of the NBA runs.

    We still make way too many turnovers when trying to throw post entry passes, but I think the team has improved somewhat in this regard. Having Scola helps a bit as he is probably the best passer on the team.
    PG seems to have removed some of the unnecessary pass once he gets into the lane turnovers that he did a lot last season.

  11. #8

    Default Re: Turnovers

    You remember the scene in Godfather 2 when they're at a party at Michael's house in Nevada and Fredo's wife is drunk and causing a scene and Fredo looks at Michael and says really dejectedly, like he's given up all hope, "I can't control her Mikey." That's how I feel about the Pacers with turnovers. At this point it just looks like a part of this team. There is no improving it. This is just a sloppy team with the ball.

  12. #9
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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Indy Cornrows had a great breakdown of the turnovers against Cleveland. Did anybody see it?
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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Teams always start of the season committing a lot of turnovers, so the pacers average will drop to a more reasonab;le number.

    One thing very few discuss is that when you are a team that prides itself on moving the ball, on equal opportunity offense, you are going to turn the ball over more than teams that have a point guard dominant offense and an offense that doesn't pass much.

    My point is the Pacers will be in the bottom third in turnovers - they just will, but hopefully they can be closer to around 20th as opposed to 30th.

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  15. #11

    Default Re: Turnovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Indy Cornrows had a great breakdown of the turnovers against Cleveland. Did anybody see it?
    yes, very nice read. The TO's break down into 1/3 careless, 1/3 too unselfish and 1/3 that's basketball. For a young team early in the season, that looks like it is a fixable problem.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    yes, very nice read. The TO's break down into 1/3 careless, 1/3 too unselfish and 1/3 that's basketball. For a young team early in the season, that looks like it is a fixable problem.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    One positive note when it comes to turnovers at least is that the Pacers while committing way too many right now are also forcing a ton of turnovers right now as well. They are currently forcing 16.7 TOs per game which would rank them 1st in this department last year, though granted as Unclebuck pointed out the inflated TOs for us and against us should lower as the season continues on to more realistic season numbers. Last year despite our great defensive numbers in nearly every category we actually were not a good team at forcing TOs ranking just 24th in the league at 13 forced per game so even if the 16.7 falls off (which it almost assuredly will as the league leading team last year forced 15.4 a game) if it stays around 14-15 or so forced TOs forced will mean that we at least aren't losing as many possessions in the TO battle as we were last year.

  18. #14
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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Teams always start of the season committing a lot of turnovers, so the pacers average will drop to a more reasonab;le number.

    One thing very few discuss is that when you are a team that prides itself on moving the ball, on equal opportunity offense, you are going to turn the ball over more than teams that have a point guard dominant offense and an offense that doesn't pass much.

    My point is the Pacers will be in the bottom third in turnovers - they just will, but hopefully they can be closer to around 20th as opposed to 30th.
    I agree with what you're saying except for the part in bold. The Pacers offensive mindset is to move the ball but they always have a low number of assists, usually below the league average. The problem isn't the system it's that the Pacers are too careless when they move the ball. Players are often out of position on the perimeter and passes are sometimes a second too late.

    The Miami Heat prides themselves on their ball movement. They were 6th lowest in turnovers last year. Precise execution is the key.
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    Last edited by Ransom; 11-05-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Teams always start of the season committing a lot of turnovers, so the pacers average will drop to a more reasonab;le number.

    One thing very few discuss is that when you are a team that prides itself on moving the ball, on equal opportunity offense, you are going to turn the ball over more than teams that have a point guard dominant offense and an offense that doesn't pass much.

    My point is the Pacers will be in the bottom third in turnovers - they just will, but hopefully they can be closer to around 20th as opposed to 30th.
    Very true. I think you also must consider that TOs were high last year and we had a lot of new players to the team last season. Well, this year we once again have a lot of new players to the team, and although the might be better players, I think we can still expect turnovers to remain high as a result. It just takes a while for new teammates to get brought into he fold. The types of passes that are made, the spots on the floor where passes are made/directed and the timing... all of theses things may be different from last year.

    It takes game experience with each other to perfect these things. I think this is where Paul George's statement that a little less sharing and less equal opportunity will help overcome the TO problem. To that, I totally agree with his thoughts if they pertain only to the short term. But as more time passes, I think you have to involve more and more players and get back to the sharing and greater equal opportunity principles that have helped make our offense less predictable.

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    Default Re: Turnovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    I've been watching this season in hope that the Pacers would improve upon the one area in which I think can keep them out of the NBA Finals.

    Turnovers

    Games 1 and 3 we committed 20 turnovers, game 2 we had 16.

    This team has enough talent to overcome a high teen turnover number against a lot of teams in this league. At least during the regular season. During the playoffs, possessions will decrease, the defense will pick up and the opponents will be stronger. Committing turnovers in the mid to upper teens will spell defeat more often than not.

    I know three games is a very small sample and playoffs are months away but the Pacers seriously need to address team turnovers or their playoff run will be shorter than any of us want.
    Totally agree. It is most likely what will end up making or breaking this season.

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