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Thread: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

  1. #51

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    This whole paragraph is hilarious. Afraid to shoot? Can't make an entry pass? Whys he even in the league then! Your pension for hyperbole really makes it hard to believe you're capable of actual analysis.
    Plus the Ben Hansbrough love fest and only popping up to hate on a Pacers player hurts credibility as well.

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  3. #52

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Plus the Ben Hansbrough love fest and only popping up to hate on a Pacers player hurts credibility as well.
    Refute the comments regarding that comparison then. Hill is a decent player and would be great for our team if he was making no more than $5mil per. However, since the Pacers refuse to pay luxury tax, the fact that Hill is overpaid could greatly hinder their ability to re-sign somebody far more important to the immediate and future success of this franchise, in Lance Stephenson. You also must consider how many quality players there are at the point guard position and the fact that so many players on rookie contracts are on par with or superior to Hill. The $$$ spent on Hill simply isn't worth it and could bite us in the *** in the long run.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Refute the comments regarding that comparison then. Hill is a decent player and would be great for our team if he was making no more than $5mil per. However, since the Pacers refuse to pay luxury tax, the fact that Hill is overpaid could greatly hinder their ability to re-sign somebody far more important to the immediate and future success of this franchise, in Lance Stephenson. You also must consider how many quality players there are at the point guard position and the fact that so many players on rookie contracts are on par with or superior to Hill. The $$$ spent on Hill simply isn't worth it and could bite us in the *** in the long run.
    Hill is not overpaid. You know who else makes 8mil a year? Jameer Nelson and Rodney Stucky.

    Still waiting for that list of point guards you would take over Hill? With so many quality point guards that are better than Hill I'm sure you could easily come up with 5.
    Last edited by freeannyong; 11-03-2013 at 09:51 PM.

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  6. #54

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    This man has obviously not watched Mike Conley in the playoffs.. You want to see scared? See him vs the Spurs. Hill while not perfect in the post season, Has attempted and made huge shots. Did Miami give him trouble? You bet your sweet *** they did. But hey, They made Tony Parker look like a 45 year old Dleague player in the finals, With there super fast defense.

    Not to mention that Hill has lowered his T.O% every single year in his career and last year he had the lowest T.O% in the league.. Also, Indiana will never be a good place for a ball dominant PG and specially now with George playing Point Forward.

    But ignore the stats and keep believing in the things you see, Because we both have been watching something opposite players. The only PG's that I recall burning constantly is, Westbrook and Deron Williams.


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  7. #55
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Money talks.....

    If Miami offered him the max and the Pacers offered him the minimum....im sure he WONT be staying with the Pacers!
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Thus the issue with paying an average point guard $8mil per. Hill's horrid contract could cost us dearly, if not dealt.
    Average point guard are paid $8mil per all around the league. Look at the contract that Teague, Conley and Dragic signed. They are in the same $7.5-$8.5mil range. That's the NBA market for those players.
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  10. #57
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Average point guard are paid $8mil per all around the league. Look at the contract that Teague, Conley and Dragic signed. They are in the same $7.5-$8.5mil range. That's the NBA market for those players.
    I totally agree with you on this.....$8 mil is the price range for a starting PG.

    However, part of the problem, I think is that there is the perception that GH isn't a True PG...but a ComboGuard that doesn't run the point like Teague/Conley/Dragic...and therefore dish out the assist on the same level as those Players. I can see how some may think that this may translate into lower $$$.
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  11. #58

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Refute the comments regarding that comparison then. Hill is a decent player and would be great for our team if he was making no more than $5mil per.
    You just can't get guys at Hill's level for less than $7-8 million a year. If you look at this list of all the guards (PG, SG or combo guards) in the league who had a 16 PER or better last year, they almost all make in that range or more. The main exception is those guys who have big flaws in their game like Vazquez or Nate Robinson, usually on defense which doesn't show up in PER.

    It wasn't a question of getting Hill at a cheaper price, it was a question of paying Hill the market value or just not signing him. So the Pacers had to decide, do we want Hill at 8 a year, or do we not want Hill at all.

    Totals Shooting Advanced
    Rk Player Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% PER WS
    1 Chris Paul 2012-13 27 LAC NBA 70 70 2335 412 856 76 232 286 323 53 209 262 678 169 10 159 143 1186 .481 .328 .885 26.4 13.9
    2 James Harden 2012-13 23 HOU NBA 78 78 2985 585 1337 179 486 674 792 62 317 379 455 142 38 295 178 2023 .438 .368 .851 23.0 12.8
    3 Russell Westbrook 2012-13 24 OKC NBA 82 82 2861 673 1535 97 300 460 575 111 317 428 607 145 24 273 189 1903 .438 .323 .800 23.9 11.6
    4 Stephen Curry 2012-13 24 GSW NBA 78 78 2983 626 1388 272 600 262 291 59 255 314 539 126 12 240 198 1786 .451 .453 .900 21.3 11.2
    5 Kobe Bryant 2012-13 34 LAL NBA 78 78 3013 738 1595 132 407 525 626 66 367 433 469 106 25 287 173 2133 .463 .324 .839 23.0 10.9
    6 Deron Williams 2012-13 28 BRK NBA 78 78 2842 495 1124 169 447 317 369 29 203 232 604 75 30 218 194 1476 .440 .378 .859 20.3 10.9
    7 Mike Conley 2012-13 25 MEM NBA 80 80 2757 414 940 106 293 234 282 43 182 225 487 174 24 189 171 1168 .440 .362 .830 18.3 9.9
    8 George Hill 2012-13 26 IND NBA 76 76 2620 386 871 130 353 174 213 47 237 284 355 81 26 116 134 1076 .443 .368 .817 16.6 9.7
    9 Dwyane Wade 2012-13 31 MIA NBA 69 69 2391 569 1093 17 66 308 425 86 258 344 352 128 56 194 140 1463 .521 .258 .725 24.0 9.6
    10 Tony Parker 2012-13 30 SAS NBA 66 66 2174 519 995 24 68 279 330 18 180 198 499 54 6 170 92 1341 .522 .353 .845 23.0 9.3
    11 Jose Calderon 2012-13 31 TOT NBA 73 58 2160 312 635 130 282 72 80 20 156 176 518 58 8 126 99 826 .491 .461 .900 18.8 7.4
    12 Ty Lawson 2012-13 25 DEN NBA 73 71 2513 448 971 85 232 235 311 36 162 198 501 107 8 182 135 1216 .461 .366 .756 17.9 7.4
    13 Kevin Martin 2012-13 29 OKC NBA 77 0 2136 350 778 158 371 219 246 31 147 178 106 72 8 101 138 1077 .450 .426 .890 16.0 7.0
    14 J.R. Smith 2012-13 27 NYK NBA 80 0 2678 527 1249 155 436 237 311 64 361 425 218 100 24 134 226 1446 .422 .356 .762 17.6 6.7
    15 Jeff Teague 2012-13 24 ATL NBA 80 78 2628 439 974 89 248 199 226 25 155 180 579 117 28 230 181 1166 .451 .359 .881 16.8 6.1
    16 Nate Robinson 2012-13 28 CHI NBA 82 23 2086 399 921 141 348 135 169 29 155 184 358 85 10 144 207 1074 .433 .405 .799 17.4 5.9
    17 Brandon Jennings 2012-13 23 MIL NBA 80 80 2897 497 1247 173 461 230 281 59 187 246 521 125 10 203 155 1397 .399 .375 .819 16.1 5.8
    18 Damian Lillard 2012-13 22 POR NBA 82 82 3167 553 1288 185 503 271 321 42 215 257 531 74 19 243 172 1562 .429 .368 .844 16.4 5.8
    19 Goran Dragic 2012-13 26 PHO NBA 77 77 2581 401 906 88 276 244 326 60 178 238 569 124 26 212 214 1134 .443 .319 .748 17.5 5.7
    20 Darren Collison 2012-13 25 DAL NBA 81 47 2372 341 724 48 136 242 275 31 188 219 415 100 8 173 139 972 .471 .353 .880 16.3 5.6
    Rk Player Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% PER WS
    21 Kyle Lowry 2012-13 26 TOR NBA 68 52 2020 250 623 101 279 190 239 56 265 321 435 94 24 157 218 791 .401 .362 .795 17.5 5.6
    22 Jamal Crawford 2012-13 32 LAC NBA 76 0 2230 445 1016 149 396 216 248 22 106 128 193 79 13 146 71 1255 .438 .376 .871 16.8 5.4
    23 Kyrie Irving 2012-13 20 CLE NBA 59 59 2048 484 1070 109 279 248 290 34 182 216 350 89 21 191 146 1325 .452 .391 .855 21.4 5.3
    24 Isaiah Thomas 2012-13 23 SAC NBA 79 62 2122 366 832 115 321 253 287 29 132 161 316 67 3 140 167 1100 .440 .358 .882 17.5 5.0
    25 Kemba Walker 2012-13 22 CHA NBA 82 82 2859 526 1244 107 332 296 371 60 223 283 471 160 31 200 153 1455 .423 .322 .798 18.8 4.8
    26 Monta Ellis 2012-13 27 MIL NBA 82 82 3076 597 1436 94 328 289 374 45 271 316 496 169 36 254 164 1577 .416 .287 .773 16.2 4.6
    27 Manu Ginobili 2012-13 35 SAS NBA 60 0 1393 229 539 83 235 164 206 30 171 201 274 80 13 132 114 705 .425 .353 .796 19.0 4.5
    28 John Wall 2012-13 22 WAS NBA 49 42 1602 324 735 12 45 246 306 35 161 196 373 65 37 157 117 906 .441 .267 .804 20.8 4.5
    29 Tyreke Evans 2012-13 23 SAC NBA 65 61 2016 366 765 45 133 210 271 56 231 287 229 90 27 128 133 987 .478 .338 .775 18.1 4.4
    30 Greivis Vasquez 2012-13 26 NOH NBA 78 78 2685 438 1012 83 243 124 154 43 294 337 704 66 6 247 190 1083 .433 .342 .805 16.3 3.8
    31 Eric Bledsoe 2012-13 23 LAC NBA 76 12 1553 253 568 31 78 106 134 78 147 225 233 109 55 137 112 643 .445 .397 .791 17.5 3.7
    32 Gerald Henderson 2012-13 25 CHA NBA 68 58 2133 382 855 33 100 258 313 55 195 250 177 68 34 108 149 1055 .447 .330 .824 16.4 3.3
    33 Jrue Holiday 2012-13 22 PHI NBA 78 78 2926 555 1288 91 247 182 242 89 240 329 625 123 32 292 170 1383 .431 .368 .752 16.7 3.3
    34 Rajon Rondo 2012-13 26 BOS NBA 38 38 1423 225 465 12 50 60 93 43 169 212 420 70 9 148 96 522 .484 .240 .645 18.1 3.2
    35 Marcus Thornton 2012-13 25 SAC NBA 72 8 1726 332 774 141 379 111 126 50 131 181 91 61 4 68 105 916 .429 .372 .881 16.3 3.2
    36 Ricky Rubio 2012-13 22 MIN NBA 57 47 1691 185 514 27 92 211 264 44 185 229 418 137 5 172 143 608 .360 .293 .799 16.2 3.0
    37 Ramon Sessions 2012-13 26 CHA NBA 61 0 1652 276 676 33 107 291 347 27 142 169 230 48 7 104 91 876 .408 .308 .839 17.7 2.9
    38 Will Bynum 2012-13 30 DET NBA 65 0 1219 253 540 24 76 106 131 28 69 97 231 45 5 125 128 636 .469 .316 .809 16.6 1.7

    Data courtesy Basketball-Reference.com.



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  13. #59
    Bleeding Blue and Gold RichardHawes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I do not doubt that there is loyalty from Lance to the Pacers......if not mostly to Bird himself, but IMHO....everything comes down to $$$$.

    Given that Lance will become a UFA in July 2014....what advantage does that Pacers have over other Teams to re-sign Lance ( if any )?
    Bird and West...Lance has completely changed his demographic and stance...From pushing women down stairs and doing the cut throat sign ala Benoit to becoming what we need in the future....This team really excites me how much they actually LOVE playing together...thats 94-95 stuff

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    How much are we gonna have to pay him? After he makes the all-star team this year, his price will raise significantly. He will easily be more expensive than G Hill, and probably be worth close to Hibbert money
    That's a good point and one I didn't think was possible before the season. If Lance makes the All-Star team or wins a Most Improved player award, that's going to drive his price above the 6 million that the Pacers can probably afford to pay him without dipping into the tax.

    That could be a problem but it's still a good problem to have because if Lance continues playing this well all season long, they Pacers championship chances go up exponentially.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    That's a good point and one I didn't think was possible before the season. If Lance makes the All-Star team or wins a Most Improved player award, that's going to drive his price above the 6 million that the Pacers can probably afford to pay him without dipping into the tax.

    That could be a problem but it's still a good problem to have because if Lance continues playing this well all season long, they Pacers championship chances go up exponentially.
    I don't think that's going to happen but if by some chance that did happen with Lance then I don't see how there's any chance the Pacers keep him. Lance may be willing to take a discount but he's not playing here for 50% of his value. When was the last time a player made an all star team on a contract year who didn't get a near max contract? I don't think it's ever happened and I can't see Larry being able to dump that much salary this offseason.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    If he makes the all-star team that means he's likely going to be offered a minimum of an on-average $10m a year contract, right? Most likely?

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    If he makes the all-star team that means he's likely going to be offered a minimum of an on-average $10m a year contract, right? Most likely?

    IF that happened then I'd think 12 mil to max. and say goodbye to Lance.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    I'd think closer to 12 myself, but I just wanted to see if we could agree on the absolute lowest possibility.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    If Lance makes the all-star team I would bet that Lance is a Pacer next year and there are other players who didn't make the all-star team who are not Pacers. It's not going to happen unless Lance gets more shots or he continues to shoot 65% from 3. He's scoring at a pretty incredibly rate so far this season.

  21. #66
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Wait, hold up, Lance an all-star??

    Now that I stop to think about it, that may actually happen. Rose, Irving, and Wade are locks at guard, I think, but Ronjo's injured and Holiday is in the West now. Maybe one of Deron/Joe Johnson makes it, but after that... the East guard pool looks pretty shallow.

    OTOH, if the Pacers are getting 2 all-stars, the top guy is George obviously but the second guy is probably Hibbert. Pacers will have to be doing extremely well to get 3 all-stars, IMO. So Lance has to continue putting up gaudy numbers, while Roy has to put up mediocre ones. In Lance's favor, the depth at center is ridiculously deep (Noah/Lopez/Chandler/Horford) compared to the guards.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Wait, hold up, Lance an all-star??

    Now that I stop to think about it, that may actually happen. Rose, Irving, and Wade are locks at guard, I think, but Ronjo's injured and Holiday is in the West now. Maybe one of Deron/Joe Johnson makes it, but after that... the East guard pool looks pretty shallow.

    OTOH, if the Pacers are getting 2 all-stars, the top guy is George obviously but the second guy is probably Hibbert. Pacers will have to be doing extremely well to get 3 all-stars, IMO. So Lance has to continue putting up gaudy numbers, while Roy has to put up mediocre ones. In Lance's favor, the depth at center is ridiculously deep (Noah/Lopez/Chandler/Horford) compared to the guards.
    Worse for Hibbert, there's just backcourt and frontcourt now. So he also has to compete with all of the forwards.

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  24. #68

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    When is the luxury tax actually paid? Could we re-sign Lance and then clear space to get under?

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    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    When is the luxury tax actually paid? Could we re-sign Lance and then clear space to get under?
    Good question. I'm not sure personally.
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    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    For those wondering, I've done some calculations. If the Pacers waive Scola and his $4.8M, they will be sitting on roughly $59M in Guaranteed Salary next season. That's

    Hibbert $14.9M
    West $12M
    G. Hill $8M
    Mahinmi $4M
    George $13.7M
    Copeland $3.1M
    Watson $2M
    S. Hill $1.3M

    Luxury Tax this year was around $71.7M. It changes based off the league's income. Let's say the league increases profits this year, which is a very likely prediction, and the Luxury Tax goes to $73M.

    Now, here's my question. We'll be right at the Salary Cap threshold with just those guys. I assume that means we can still sign Lance without any Cap Penalties, as long as it's roughly under the $14M difference? I'd need a clarification from someone who's more well-versed in the ways of Salary Structure and penalties.



    EDIT: My Source for Salary Numbers - http://www.hoopsworld.com/indiana-pacers-team-salary
    Last edited by Day-V; 11-04-2013 at 01:40 PM.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    When is the luxury tax actually paid? Could we re-sign Lance and then clear space to get under?
    Luxury tax is paid at the end of the season. So yes we can do that. But it's hard, as you'd need to find an under the cap team to help you clear space. Much better to do it beforehand.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    For those wondering, I've done some calculations. If the Pacers waive Scola and his $4.8M, they will be sitting on roughly $59M in Guaranteed Salary next season. That's

    Hibbert $14.9M
    West $12M
    G. Hill $8M
    Mahinmi $4M
    George $13.7M
    Copeland $3.1M
    Watson $2M
    S. Hill $1.3M

    Luxury Tax this year was around $71.7M. It changes based off the league's income. Let's say the league increases profits this year, which is a very likely prediction, and the Luxury Tax goes to $73M.

    Now, here's my question. We'll be right at the Salary Cap threshold with just those guys. I assume that means we can still sign Lance without any Cap Penalties, as long as it's roughly under the $14M difference? I'd need a clarification from someone who's more well-versed in the ways of Salary Structure and penalties.



    EDIT: My Source for Salary Numbers - http://www.hoopsworld.com/indiana-pacers-team-salary
    We will have full Bird rights on Lance, so we are not limited cap-wise on contracts that we can sign him to. We can give him up to the 25% max contract. The restriction we have is that we won't go over the salary cap, so we have to have enough money to sign Lance and fill out the 13 man roster.

    Assuming we make no trades and pick up the options on Orlando, Sloan, and Scola, we will have between $6-8mil to sign between 2 and 4 players.

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  31. #73

    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Luxury Tax this year was around $71.7M. It changes based off the league's income. Let's say the league increases profits this year, which is a very likely prediction, and the Luxury Tax goes to $73M.
    The luxury tax for 2014-2015 is projected to be $75.7M according to Larry Coon.
    http://www.celticsblog.com/2013/6/4/...ld-established

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Guys slow down a bit, we still have to see if Lance has figured out how to play on the road.

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    Default Re: "I'm staying with the Pacers."

    Day-V: nice work, but your estimate for George's salary is too low. Check out count55's article below. Also, Strummer is right. Early tax projection for 2014-15 is at $75.7m (same source, I believe)

    http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...-implications/

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