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Thread: The Former Player Thread

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers developed Miles. All you've got to do is watch him try Roy's hook and the way he defends the rim to realize that.


    Which might be another thread topic, about how great the Pacers are about developing talent. Roy/PG/Lance/Miles/OJ. The list just keeps getting longer and longer.
    I think this proves that our FO, especially Bird, have been doing a really nice job for several years in a row on those low picks to get solid rotational talent to all-star level talent players. Even the players who were previous bird picks from recent memory have been solid from other teams. Miles, Tyler, Rush pre-injury, AJ before John Wall's return. And of course our own players.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    Haven't watched the whole game though, but the last Phoenix game I saw most of his made shots are closer to the basket, and had more highlight plays at this time of the year than last year. So I'm guessing that on most games he's pretty much less of a jump shooter and more of an inside player slashing and cutting and just getting those points closer to the basket.

    As for Miles, I'm pretty impressed. Just going from a player who can't even get consistent garbage time to a really solid starting center is really impressive. Just a win-win trade for us and the Suns, following up from a win-win trade with the Spurs from several years back.
    I know exactly which game you're talking about, and yeah, he did a nice job of finding his points inside, but that game was more of an exception than the norm. According to Synergy:

    He's had 89 plays this year
    -21 on spot up (keep in mind this can include a pump fake+drive)
    -28 in transition
    -1 cut

    He's been great in transition, solid spotting up, and then small sample size in pretty much every other category. They aren't designing inside stuff for him, most of it is coming off simple drives after a guy closes out too hard on a spot up shot, or in transition. NBA.com stats have him taking 53 jumpers to 17 shots inside the paint, so he's still doing far more jump shooting than anything else.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    I know exactly which game you're talking about, and yeah, he did a nice job of finding his points inside, but that game was more of an exception than the norm. According to Synergy:

    He's had 89 plays this year
    -21 on spot up (keep in mind this can include a pump fake+drive)
    -28 in transition
    -1 cut

    He's been great in transition, solid spotting up, and then small sample size in pretty much every other category. They aren't designing inside stuff for him, most of it is coming off simple drives after a guy closes out too hard on a spot up shot, or in transition. NBA.com stats have him taking 53 jumpers to 17 shots inside the paint, so he's still doing far more jump shooting than anything else.
    Last night's 3 after faking out Anthony Davis was great.
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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers developed Miles. All you've got to do is watch him try Roy's hook and the way he defends the rim to realize that.


    Which might be another thread topic, about how great the Pacers are about developing talent. Roy/PG/Lance/Miles/OJ. The list just keeps getting longer and longer.

    EDIT: PHX was even surprised about how well Miles looked when he came to their camp.

    http://arizonasports.com/41/1672038/...sing-preseason

    Summer league with the Pacers.

    Good point. There's no doubt that practicing here for a year improved his skills. So he has sort of had the best scenario. He practiced with an elite team for a year, then took his improved skills to a place where he could actually use them. I wasn't high on drafting him and never dreamed that he could play like this. I admit that I was wrong and am glad for him.

    The development of all of these young players is just the symptom of franchise whose culture is shaped by a guy like Larry Bird. It doesn't surprise me that someone who has succeeded in every level of basketball knows exactly how to pick the right guys out.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    To bad we couldn't have replaced Ian for Plumlee in that trade.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The development of all of these young players is just the symptom of franchise whose culture is shaped by a guy like Larry Bird. It doesn't surprise me that someone who has succeeded in every level of basketball knows exactly how to pick the right guys out.
    I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.
    True. Where Bird has succeeded is that he has found the perfect talent/character balance.

    O'Neal/Artest/Jackson/Tinsley were obviously a talented bunch, but they had character flaws on a catastrophic level.

    Murphy/Dunleavy/Ford all seemed like decent enough guys, but they didn't make us a very talented basketball team.

    Bird has succeeded with this team because he managed to build a roster that has both talent and high character. He drafted talented high character guys like Danny, Roy, and Paul. He added strong proven high character vets in David West and Hill. All of this meant that he was able to take a chance on Lance because he was a low cost second rounder who we were putting on a team with very high character guys. That's way different than building a roster of O'Neal/Artest/Jackson/Tinsley, which was destined to blowup at a catastrophic price to the franchise. Bird knew that Lance would have a great chance of succeeding if surrounded by mature high player guys, and if he didn't then we could have just dumped him at virtually no cost.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To bad we couldn't have replaced Ian for Plumlee in that trade.
    It would be better for our financial future but the Suns wanted Miles.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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  10. #84

    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    McBob with a nice game tonight. 19pts, 5/8 3pt FG (!), 6rebs, 7asts...too bad they lost to the Hawks.

    Jarrett Jack has been wildly inconsistent so far in Cavs uniform. Just 2pts on 0/6 shooting.

    Tyler only had 9 mins with 2pts on 1/3 shooting, so it's a down for him after the previous big game.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.
    Over the summer, around draft time, Pritchard did a radio interview with someone, JMV I think, and he got asked a generic "so what do you look for in a prospect?" type question. He immediately said cultural fit and went on to say it a handful of more times in his 30 second or so answer. "Cultural fit" can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people, Bird's the guy that drafted both Lance and Plumlee, you'd probably be more hard pressed to find two more different personalities. But they've both clearly got a dedication to the craft and, after a little nurturing maybe, have their priorities in order.

    That's the kind of stuff that makes what we've done hard to replicate, the personality assessment and chemistry fit stuff. I've never been a big fan of former players getting jobs just because "he played, he knows better," there're plenty of examples where that's just wrong. But Bird's just different I guess. Not that Bird's a clairvoyant or anything, there's always a good deal of luck involved, but I think it's pretty undeniable that he's got a sixth sense when it comes to seeking out guys that can mesh. That's one of the art forms that differentiates a successful NBA executive from Joe Schmoe on a message board that thinks all it takes to run a team is getting good players.

    edit: also, there's not a lot of franchises that would let Bird finish out his building plan, or hell, probably even start it. and if it's Random Executive X he'd get even less time. I bet a lot of current execs could build a strong team given as much time as it takes, well, maybe, but they don't have the luxury of job security.
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 11-12-2013 at 02:14 AM.

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  13. #86
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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

    Happy we have Scola, but VERY sad we don't have Plumlee.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

    Happy we have Scola, but VERY sad we don't have Plumlee.
    Thats an extreme exaggeration in my opinion.

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    Bit of an over statement, he's gone from garbage to the next Tim Duncan in just over a year.

    This was a championship move, Luis has helped the Pacers win at least a couple of the 8 games so far.

    Plumlee looks decent, but lets wait until either reality hits or people take the Suns seriously. Them and the 76ers are the fun, hot teams that maybe could continue and sneak in the playoffs, or flame out really fast (no pun intended there) and win 20 games. You have to part w/ young talent that you'd ideally want to keep in order to win the big prize, especially a team like Indiana where most free-agents don't swarm to.

    A 30th pick, or late 20s pick by the end of the season probably, was just mainly going to be more money towards the luxury tax, and a mediocre player at best. Gerald Green was a dent in the cap space for 2 more years, and didn't fit the Pacers system at all. Ideally, this trade would've been done before Copeland signed, but Phoenix must've had higher demands for a while.
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    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

    Happy we have Scola, but VERY sad we don't have Plumlee.
    Crazy talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Jax View Post
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    Plumlee looks decent
    I think he looks great... for a second-year player picked at the end of the first round. I have no doubt Plum will be a great rotational player and a potentially solid starter for years to come. He's in a great situation down there: that team has nothing to lose and they can play spoiler all season long. It's not a big deal to make mistakes; they're all learning together.

    But our window is now, and Scola's veteran poise and experience is much more valuable for a team trying to win a championship. Scola's decision-making has been nearly flawless on the floor, which I wouldn't expect from Miles for the next few years.

    Everybody won in that trade.
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  19. #91

    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    People fail to consider the situation Miles is now in and how it's MUCH more conducive to his growth than here in Indiana. Right here is a win-now, high-expectation environment, the complete opposite of that in Phoenix. Sure, Miles showed flashes in the summer league, but would he have been able to produce given minutes here? That's up for debate, but when a contender like us has an opportunity to get someone who HAS experience in high-pressure situations, i.e. Luis Scola, it has to pull the trigger. In this sense, Mahinmi is a better fit at backup center than Plumlee despite his contract because he's a known quantity who has championship experience.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    This is exactly right, and why I, for his sake, wanted him to be traded to a team where he could develop. He landed in a great situation for himself. Kudos to Miles for his success with the Suns!
    Question: would the Suns have entertained a trade that included Ian instead of Plums? That might have helped us get our cap lower for this summer's big challenges.

    Edit: I see it's already been asked, but any other comments appreciated.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-15-2013 at 04:01 PM.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Plumlee's defense looked fantastic early on. I usually defend Ian, because I think he's all defense and anything you get out of him offensively is just a bonus, but I think Plumlee's defense looked better and it didn't have to do with them being uptemp. Ian is athletic, but not nearly as athletic as Miles. Miles also looks to be a better rebounder.

    Miles doesn't have the foul trouble either, which is weird. He's playing 30MPG, blocking 2 shots a night, going vertical on other shots, and not getting many whistles against him. Shows he plays really good positional defense, and isn't rushing over after getting caught out of position trying to go for blocks.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-15-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Jax View Post
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    I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.
    Might benefit him offensively, but it isn't exactly like Ian is exploding offensively either. Defensively, that is another story, as Since86 said.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Jax View Post
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    I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.
    It's not apples for apples. Even if Ian is a little better, he is $4 million fours years (or something close to that) while Plums is a late first rounder contract. It prepares us for a challenging summer finance-wise.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    I still get a good kick out of his two handed block on Ibaka.

    http://www.nba.com/suns/video/channe...-the-night.nba
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    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Phoenix specifically asked for Plumlee in the trade, so I doubt there was ever any chance of them receiving Ian instead. You can't have Scola and Plumlee, just one or the other.

    I've watched most of the Suns games this season. I like Plumlee, and I think he has great touch around the rim. His defense is solid, and penetrating guards need to watch out for him. I really don't like the way he positions himself for rebounds, though. I don't think his stats are hollow, but I do think they're a little inflated for what he brings to the table. All that said, I'd rather have him than Mahinmi if I'm a rebuilding team like the Suns.

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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I still get a good kick out of his two handed block on Ibaka.

    http://www.nba.com/suns/video/channe...-the-night.nba
    Crap, I missed that
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: The Former Player Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Question: would the Suns have entertained a trade that included Ian instead of Plums? That might have helped us get our cap lower for this summer's big challenges.

    Edit: I see it's already been asked, but any other comments appreciated.
    The Suns are in the stage that want prospects. Ian is not a prospect anymore. Miles was more intriguing to them and according to reports he was the final piece needed for the trade.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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