Page 29 of 36 FirstFirst ... 19252627282930313233 ... LastLast
Results 701 to 725 of 889

Thread: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

  1. #701
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yeah, it's my fault for pointing out that Hicks mentioned something specifically, and you changed who he was talking about specifically in order to make your point.
    Hicks challenged my point that intuition and human judgment trumps statistics. He said the following:

    You're basically poo-pooing documented evidence and the case itself because your gut tells you someone was or wasn't guilty
    He was the one brought up the subject of evidence and someone being guilty or not. I really don't see me changing the subject so very greatly much.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


  3. #702
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    22,987

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    http://instagram.com/p/gTjH1AJGBu/

    Remember when we worried about Lance's maturity? I'm not all that concerned anymore.
    LOL...his wife made him wear a shirt from Burberry.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  4. #703
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Good post.

    I never said numbers, statistics, or evidence is not important. But, at the end of the day, whether Vogel or Bird is making a decision or juries are deciding someone's fate, their human judgment/intuition is the ultimate "judge."
    But what is that supposed to do or mean in regards to a disagreement where someone introduces statistics to support their opinion? Everybody uses intuition. So isn't the next step often going to involve identifying supportive facts?

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  6. #704
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,525

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't understand why you're launching back into your views on Danny that aren't statistically-based while you are quoting a response having specifically to do with stats. It kind of confuses the flow of conversation.
    It doesn't confuse me. I find most of the stats being tossed around in this thread meaningless to the debate.
    Granger is a SF. We have a star SF already. Lance is a guard. A damned good one and the sky's the limit on his potential. Even if he doesn't get an ounce better he fits perfectly with what the Pacers have developed into.

    Meanwhile, Granger is in a suit. Hasn't played meaningful minutes in some time. And there's no guarantee he will ever be the player he once was. And even if he was, it would be at a position we already have a younger, better player (Paul George).

    The Danny vs Lance or vs George Hill is simply a moot point I think. It's really Danny versus Paul George and that debate is settled. So anyplace else you'd try to insert him into the starting lineup is just misguided at best. Danny Granger is a SF. Paul George is a SF. That's how I see it. We don't need to compromise to try and find a way to get them both into the starting lineup any longer because the pecking order is as clear as it's ever been, and because the team developed into something stronger than it's been in years while Danny's game has been in decline (for whatever reason) and then in a suit.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bball For This Useful Post:


  8. #705
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,955

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Hicks challenged my point that intuition and human judgment trumps statistics. He said the following:



    He was the one brought up the subject of evidence and someone being guilty or not. I really don't see me changing the subject so very greatly much.
    I notice that you didn't quote the prior sentence, establishing who "you" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Statistics are a collaboration from several eyeballs, designed to help generate a more accurate replication of what was seen so that we can look back and analyze what happened. Sort of like how detectives and lawyers document evidence and take witness testimony to try to piece together what happened at the scene of a crime. You're basically poo-pooing documented evidence and the case itself because your gut tells you someone was or wasn't guilty based off a smaller piece of the evidence pie that you managed to consume yourself personally.

    I'm all for intuition. I just don't put it above integers. They both belong.
    Jury or juror wasn't said, nor implied, but rather lawyer and detective were specifically said. Did you talk about lawyers or detectives? No, you started talking about jurys and jurors. You interjected jury and juror, and ONLY you.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  9. #706
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Again, this doesn't have to be a metaphor for a criminal case
    I didn't start the metaphor, you did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    the real point is to not dismiss facts just because we don't like what they might suggest. That's the real point I'm trying to make. As for which facts 'are really facts', well, sports statistics are as close as you're probably ever going to get to 'real facts'.
    Get me the heck away from sports statisticians when it comes to making a high level professional sports judgment. I'll take an experienced coach or player. Or maybe even an artist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And if the stats are about scoring efficiency, they're nothing strong or weak, they just are what they are. The only thing I've seen misleading about them is how they've been purposefully misrepresent to be a measurement for a player's OVERALL quality, which was NOT ever the point of those who were bringing them up to support Danny Granger.
    That's fine. The stat does not prove Danny is better than Lance.

    I don't even think it necessarily proves Danny is more efficient than the players he is ahead of in that list. You have to define "efficient," and their definition has nice thoughts. I have my own thoughts on how to define it.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


  11. #707
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    7,126

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    my answer is that I am willing to accept any short comings that having Granger in the Starting Lineup ( cuz I do not believe that the dropoff from the Best lineup of GH/PG/West/Hibbert/Lance is that significant compared to the 2nd Best Lineup of GH/PG/West/Hibbert/Granger )
    At this time there is no evidence to suggest one line-up is better than the other. It very well could end up being GH, PG, West, Hibbert, and Granger is the best line-up.


    On a side note, when did we go from a fact based judicial system to an intuition based judicial system? I am pretty sure the law itself says there must be sufficient facts beyond doubt in order to convict someone. The only time intuition comes into play is sentencing, and bail.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 11-04-2013 at 03:52 PM.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Eleazar For This Useful Post:


  13. #708
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,525

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    BTW... Is this a debate or an argument?
    I thought it was a debate but I'm starting to wonder!
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  14. #709
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I notice that you didn't quote the prior sentence, establishing who "you" is.



    Jury or juror wasn't said, nor implied, but rather lawyer and detective were specifically said. Did you talk about lawyers or detectives? No, you started talking about jurys and jurors. You interjected jury and juror, and ONLY you.
    Dude. He talked about whether someone is guilty or not. Jurors decide that.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  15. #710
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    14,650

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jury or juror wasn't said, nor implied, but rather lawyer and detective were specifically said. Did you talk about lawyers or detectives? No, you started talking about jurys and jurors. You interjected jury and juror, and ONLY you.
    Well who are the lawyers documenting the evidence for? Either for the state or defendant so that the case can be presented to jury (unless its settled beforehand).

    Jury and juror was a natural leap for McKeyfan to take once Hicks brought up detectives and lawyers.

  16. #711
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I am pretty sure the law itself says there must be sufficient facts beyond doubt in order to convict someone. The only time intuition comes into play is sentencing, and bail.
    Yes, but we don't go to the "fact machine" and enter all the paper and wait for the machine to tell us if certain documents are good facts or persuasive facts. The jury makes that decision. It's not science. It's intuition.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-04-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  17. #712
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,955

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Dude. He talked about whether someone is guilty or not. Jurors decide that.
    Actually, he wasn't. He was talking about recreating a crime scene, which jurors don't do. Again, I can quote what was actually said to back up my point, where as you won't find any mention or implied statement about guilt.

    Statistics are a collaboration from several eyeballs, designed to help generate a more accurate replication of what was seen so that we can look back and analyze what happened. Sort of like howdetectives and lawyers document evidence and take witness testimony to try to piece together what happened at the scene of a crime.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  19. #713

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Is now a good time to mention that Jim O'Brien was the first person I'm aware of who said after the 2010 draft that the acquisitions of Paul George and Lance Stephenson were going to be seen looking back as the real turning point for the franchise? It's true.
    Between essentially forcing the Pacers to hire Frank, and statements like these..maybe Jim should have been a GM.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sookie For This Useful Post:


  21. #714
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,955

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jury and juror was a natural leap for McKeyfan to take once Hicks brought up detectives and lawyers.
    Yep, we agree, it was a leap.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  22. #715
    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    10,725

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Between essentially forcing the Pacers to hire Frank
    which indeed happened!

    JOB made the best thing in a decade happen to the Pacers. READY! GO!

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Heisenberg For This Useful Post:


  24. #716
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    17,149

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Who can honestly say Granger can shoot 3's better than Lance? Stephenson has been knocking them down at a great clip. What does Granger do better than Lance?
    Lance is shooting 64.3% from 3 at the moment which is awesome. If he keeps shooting at an above 40% clip throughout the season then he has become a dead-eye shooter and that's absolutely fantastic news for the team.

    However, prior to this season Lance shot 33% from 3 in his best season. That's a decent percentage but it's not an elite one. Granger has a career average of 38.4% from 3 and he shot 38.1% in his last healthy season. Therefore, before the start of this season the only honest answer was to say that Granger can shoot the 3 better than Lance.

    If Lance keeps up this kind of shooting, of course, and shoots better than Granger throughout the season then he will certainly overtake him in that aspect as well.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nuntius For This Useful Post:


  26. #717
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    14,650

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yep, we agree, it was a leap.
    Yeah and my question is, so what? I didn't realize the analogies of discussion had to be limited to lawyers and detectives since that is all Hicks' decided to mention.

  27. #718
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,955

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yeah and my question is, so what? I didn't realize the analogies of discussion had to be limited to lawyers and detectives since that is all Hicks' decided to mention.
    Next time you make an analogy, if I remember, I'm going to purposefully change that analogy to invalidate it, and see if you accept the changes made, agreed?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  29. #719
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    17,149

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    how exactly are two players who take the same amount of shots, but only one is a chucker?
    Some Pacer fans seem to be way too traumatized by JOB's tenure.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to Nuntius For This Useful Post:


  31. #720
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Actually, he wasn't. He was talking about recreating a crime scene, which jurors don't do.
    I can see now why bringing up jurors is irrelevant. Detectives recreate crime scenes for fun! It has nothing to do with a guilty or innocent verdict.


    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Again, I can quote what was actually said to back up my point, where as you won't find any mention or implied statement about guilt.
    Here's what Hicks said:
    Hicks: "You're basically poo-pooing documented evidence and the case itself because your gut tells you someone was or wasn't guilty."
    Now, I could swear a form of the word "guilt" is in that sentence.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-04-2013 at 04:15 PM.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  32. The Following User Says Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


  33. #721
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    54
    Posts
    10,662

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Dude. He talked about whether someone is guilty or not. Jurors decide that.
    But judges can overturn it.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I think my problem is with words like "intuition" and "trumps". Intuition is not usually considered a thoughtful process, and even for someone like me who believes strongly in intuition and hunches to reach a proper answer (I have been doing troubleshooting for over 30 years) it is only a tool that then needs to be coordinated with other tools, like statistics. "Trumps" implies that no matter what the numbers say, an intuitive feeling is the right answer - and I think even the best coaches or players would try to define WHY a particular set of statistics doesn't match what they see. I'd rephrase maybe as "Intuition Integrating Integers" or some such, which keeps the value of using the numbers as a tool while getting the point across that a number is not necessarily truth.

    ETA: It's the people who basically say things like "I don't care about statistics, I use the eye test" who really rub me the wrong way. The eye doesn't see everything, nor can one person watch all aspects of a game. The "eye test" has to be able to point something specific out that causes the common interpretation of a statistic to be wrong - otherwise it reaches the absurdity of saying something like "the Pacers really beat the Heat last year because I thought they looked better, no matter what the final score was."
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  34. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:


  35. #722
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Dude. He talked about whether someone is guilty or not. Jurors decide that.
    Not necessarily. And you're arguing over something that was never the point in the first place.

  36. #723
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,806

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Between essentially forcing the Pacers to hire Frank, and statements like these..maybe Jim should have been a GM.
    Maybe he was! We know that Larry thought highly of Obie. It can't be because of his coaching strategies, so it must be his team building skills

  37. #724
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    14,650

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Next time you make an analogy, if I remember, I'm going to purposefully change that analogy to invalidate it, and see if you accept the changes made, agreed?

    You can make whatever analogy you want, just like I can make whatever analogy I want. No single poster gets to decide what analogy is to be used in a discussion. A jury is very much related to the work of a lawyer and detective, since convincing a jury is often the endgame to the work of either of those parties. McKeyfan simply took Hicks' analogy and expanded on it. You're acting as if McKeyfan changed the topic to unicorns and baby seals.

  38. The Following User Says Thank You to Sollozzo For This Useful Post:


  39. #725
    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    10,725

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Those Bender and Croshere extensions were terrible.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •