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Thread: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

  1. #351

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    .............. the style matches Granger's game very well .............
    How many games has Granger played under Vogel ??

  2. #352

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    How many games has Granger played under Vogel ??
    More than a hundred.

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  4. #353
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    How many games has Granger played under Vogel ??
    114 games (98 regular season games + 16 playoff games).
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  6. #354
    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Lance made jumpers last night, which was great, but he also made a lot of stupid passes. Don't get me wrong, I'm elated to have Lance, but he's quickly getting overrated on PD.

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  8. #355
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Had nothing to do with remaining flexible, and everything to do with the inherent limitations of the NBA extension system.
    What do we take from this? The NBA screwed up and we got screwed by fine print? I mean, didn't the CBA try to fix things so that blue chip 2nd rounders can be retained by their teams? This didn't happen for us.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  9. #356
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I call bs on that, just say it man we know the true no reason to sugar coat it.
    I think the "Lance with the subs" crowd needs to be differentiated between those who think Lance should finish and those who want Granger to finish. If they are saying Lance finishes, it's not BS but a Ginobli/Jason Terry kind of strategy.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  11. #357

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    114 games (98 regular season games + 16 playoff games).
    Maybe I needed to specify 'lately'.

  12. #358
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I think the "Lance with the subs" crowd needs to be differentiated between those who think Lance should finish and those who want Granger to finish. If they are saying Lance finishes, it's not BS but a Ginobli/Jason Terry kind of strategy.
    Well, lol, it appears Nuntius is the only one in the "large" subset of those who want Lance to come off the bench but also to finish.

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  13. #359
    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Well, lol, it appears Nuntius is the only one in the "large" subset of those who want Lance to come off the bench but also to finish.

    If it's a tight back and forth game I want Lance to finish. If we're down 10 with 2 minutes to go or something like that I want Danny. I honestly don't care who starts, if Danny gets healthy I'm cool with a 24/24 split between the two of em.

  14. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This is the crux.

    Lance proponents (at least speaking for myself) see that he has not been given the long leash that PG and others have been given. We're convinced he will break out this year if he gets it.

    It could be that "freeing Lance" earlier or in the future is a bad idea. But no one can win the debate until he gets that chance. If he does, nobody on either side will be upset if our side wins.
    There's something deep down in my gut that believes that the leash is there partly to create ambiguity around his value, and that the leash will come off at the start of next season, once his new contract is negotiated.


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  16. #361
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I would imagine that the arguments being made here are the assumption that Danny is going to be Danny. If he's not, and Lance keeps playing at his current level than there isn't an argument.

    If he is, and Lance returns to the level he played at last season, then there isn't an argument. (or there shouldn't be..)

    If they are close, then it's debatable.
    For the record, I think Lance should finish games even if Granger comes back 100 percent. It would make more sense to bench Hill than Lance.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  17. #362
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Everyone in this forum knows that the reason that you don't want Danny in the starting unit has nothing to do with basketball.
    A lot of people here don't like V. judging people's motives. I think you are wrong to judge his motive here. I think it is very possible to want Granger coming off the bench and Lance finishing games for completely basketball reasons.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  18. #363
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Given the number of ball handlers in the starting lineup, wouldn't it make more sense for a creator and ball handler like Lance to play as much with the Starters as much with the bench?
    These long discussions are never really very profitable unless we zero in on the real question: who finishes?

    If you think Lance should finish, if would help if you added that to your comments. Then your arguments will be received better from the pro-Lance crowd. Otherwise, all these "Granger should start" arguments feel like a Trojan Horse.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  19. #364
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Honestly, screw "that guy". I just want a 40% 3 point shooter in the starting line-up for our bigs. Can I have that? If I can then I don't give a **** if he's called Granger, Stephenson or Harry the Martian.
    We can't afford him.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  20. #365
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    You don't get it. Even though literally everybody agrees that the best thing for Lance to do is be a primary ballhandler AND it's quite apparent Vogel isn't going to let him do it with the starters AND everybody agrees that it's who finishes and not who starts that really matters, the best thing for our team is if Lance starts. That way, Lance can start the game with the starters to build chemistry, stay out there with the bench so he can be a handler, and finish with the starters because that's how you win ballgames.

    Also, all of this has to do with purely basketball reasons and has absolutely nothing to do with the competition being between my favorite player on the team and either the guy I don't like because he reminds me of Jim O'Brien or the guy who plays point guard but isn't a pure point guard.
    No, it has to do with who finishes games.

    Lance is arguably our second best player, and he is better than our best player five years ago for a sucky team.

    Your green comments work if you truly believe Lance should finish, but I think you've already stated a different position in a previous post.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  21. #366
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I think I'm done with this whole Lance vs. Granger thing period. It's a good discussion and very important for our team, but it is very difficult to hold a proper discussion when people switch back and forth between arguing what they would do with the roster if they had full control of all decisions and arguing what should be done given what Frank Vogel actually likes to do with certain combinations. There's common ground all over the place, but it seems like whenever you try to agree with somebody on a particular point, they instantly qualify it with something that Vogel isn't prone to actually doing.

    Absolutely everybody here likes Lance, but it's pretty clear there are a lot of people that don't like Granger. And that means any situation in which Granger "wins" in any way, shape, or form must be trod on.
    I think Granger "wins" if he comes off the bench and lights it up for 20 minutes a game. What's wrong with that?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  22. #367
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    The biggest issue I saw in the playoffs last year was that GH struggles against tough, playoff pressure 'D'. He has a relatively weak handle for a PG. Besides the occaisonal turnover (which are a type that almost always lead to points) the big issue is that because he struggles advancing the ball, they start their offensive sets late. That is a killer for a team wanting to play inside - out. PG is certainly improving as a ball handler, but Im not ready to put that responsibility on him, especially considering (assuming they meet Miami again) he would have to do it against the best player on the planet. Lance has a much more advanced handle, would be advancing against an aging Wade, and is simply the best player the Pacers have at pushing the ball. Pushing the ball and getting early offense before the D is set is huge against great defensive teams like Miami and Chicago - prmarily their starting lineups.
    Thank you.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  23. #368
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    If it's a tight back and forth game I want Lance to finish. If we're down 10 with 2 minutes to go or something like that I want Danny. I honestly don't care who starts, if Danny gets healthy I'm cool with a 24/24 split between the two of em.

  24. #369
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    I think this thread may reach "Brandon Rush is a terrible 3 point shooter" legendary status if Lance keeps up the good work.

  25. #370
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    So, I'll ask again - if nothing is really changing, then what are you trying to accomplish? I have to assume that you want him to get more time (most of his time) with the bench and less with the starters. Is that correct? To me that's a role change. If that's correct, what kind of numbers are you expecting Lance to elevate to?
    The question is: do you really want Granger to finish. That's the question to ask.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  26. #371
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Absolutely everybody here likes Lance, but it's pretty clear there are a lot of people that don't like Granger. And that means any situation in which Granger "wins" in any way, shape, or form must be trod on.
    That's not at all true. The reality is one person does not like Granger. The rest of us either want Granger or Lance to play more minutes with the starters...whether that means start and/or finish. Honestly, this is going to be a moot point. Granger isn't going to be 100% this year and if he shows he can play pretty well, he's going to find himself traded unless he will accept a big pay cut. So, best case for him...he is out of Indy. Worst case he is out of the league. Lance is a young player who will play with Paul for another decade well after Granger hangs it up.

    Sorry, but these are the facts.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Seriously, stop making **** up. None of that is true. You could say George has changed, but reality is he is just a better version of what he was. Hibbert isn't a different player, he is just a better version of what he was. Those 4 starters are not different players, they are just this years version of the same player. Some of them might be better, but that just means there is less of a reliance on Granger. The style they play hasn't changed all that much, just a different shot distribution, and the style matches Granger's game very well as it should considering he was the main cog in its first iteration. Sure things have changed, but we aren't talking about significant changes. We are talking about adjustments that should be simple for a player with the skillset of Granger to adjust to.

    rm1369 is right, things have changed a lot since DG played in 2011-12. In 11-12, Paul was fourth in FG attempts (Granger, West, Hibbert) with 639 attempts. Granger shot the ball 941 times, which was 302 more times than PG. West was second in FG attempts with 716, so Granger shot the ball 225 more times than the next highest player.

    Now Paul is leading the team in FG attempts and has morphed into one of the best players in the NBA. Lance is also getting a ton of attempts. We don't need Granger to shoot the ball at a ratio that is drastically higher than the next highest player. That's just not who we are anymore. Granger is facing a significant change when he returns.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2012.html
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-03-2013 at 09:29 AM.

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  29. #373

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Lance made jumpers last night, which was great, but he also made a lot of stupid passes. Don't get me wrong, I'm elated to have Lance, but he's quickly getting overrated on PD.
    A lot? I saw two. Which is less than the number of "stupid" shots that West took, less than the number of "stupid" fouls West gave, and "a lot" less than the number of "stupid" shots that Orlando Johnson (who is quickly getting overrated on PD) took.

    Funny how he's "quickly getting overrated" by a board that largely dismissed anything positive he did as a flash in the pan by a player who wasn't worth a single kind word or bit of credit. It's like the crow did nothing to the appetite. Just enjoy his early contributions; Vogel certainly does, as he called him the Pacers' "most efficient offensive player this year."

    Last I checked passing is part of offense, but I'm sure your unbiased opinion is more knowledgeable than the coach's.

  30. #374
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Absolutely everybody here likes Lance, but it's pretty clear there are a lot of people that don't like Granger. And that means any situation in which Granger "wins" in any way, shape, or form must be trod on.
    Most of us like Granger and appreciate what he has given to the Pacers over the years. I feel sorry for him that his physical prime coincided with the likes of Jim O'Brien, Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, etc. He drew the short straw in that sense. He has always represented the franchise with class and was certainly a nice personality to have after the disastrous O'Neal/Artest era. Also, it's certainly a shame that he had to go through such a bad injury at the relatively young age of 30.

    I'm sure that people read my posts and think that I'm a "Granger hater", but that's just not true. That being said, I see a team that has been an elite team for the last year without any contribution from Granger. I see a team with a budding young talent in Lance who nicely complements our superstar Paul George. I see a starting lineup that is clearly working and has a nice vibe to it, and I see Lance's skill set being a major reason for that. I think that our starting lineup's main advantage is its physical defensive identity, and it's certainly legitimate to think that replacing Lance with Granger is a clear downgrade in that department. This is a starting lineup that clearly works and just seems to get better with every game.

    You might think that those of us who want Lance to start "don't like Granger", but I can just as easily say that many who want Granger to start have their mind set on Granger starting at all costs because of who he is, regardless of how well Lance plays.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-03-2013 at 09:28 AM.

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  32. #375

    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Don't get me wrong, I'm elated to have Lance, but he's quickly getting overrated on PD.
    As it always is - the truth lies somewhere inbetween. The Lance argument. The Danny argument. The Lance/Danny argument. All have their supporters, all have their detractors. Time will tell what happens in the next 4 months or so. We'll know what we have then. It'll be fun to revisit this thread (and many others) and see where it all falls. Some people will appear to be brilliant. Others will appear to be cluelsss. I say 'appear' because none of us can forsee what's going to happen on the court and 99.9% of the important matters have yet to play out.

    I love this game.

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