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Thread: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I'm a Jeremy Lin fan, and I think the decision to have him come off the bench is a good idea. Because both Harden and Lin need..and should have the ball in their hand.

    We have people here complaining that Lance doesn't get enough touches, but then absolutely refusing the idea of having him play a sixth man Manu/Lin/OKCHarden role.

    If you want Lance to get more touches, to have more control..that means your going to be taking the ball away from Paul George. Anyone think that's a good idea? Didn't think so.

    Have him run the show with the bench? That gives him the opportunity to prove that he can do what y'all are insisting he can do, in a way that can still be controlled. There's a reason Lance was excited about this possibility. Because in the end, giving him that sixth man role will actually involve him more.
    If Lin was as good as Lance he would be starting, Lin is on the bench because he is just not that good.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Why don't we delay this discussion until Danny returns, plays off the bench and proves he's healthy and more capable than Lance. When that happens, let him be Paul's Robin or whatever you want.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    ...or do you want to play Danny at half speed with the starters and risk home court? Is that really a bright idea?

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It really depends on whether Lance's shooting keeps up. If it doesn't, Danny (on paper) helps the starters more.

    And, I always feel that a quality playmaker (who can get his own shot) is better than someone who relies on people getting him a shot, to come off the bench.

    I understand the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. And I especially get it with the uncertainty with Danny. But it could work out better, and it seems like all involved want that situation to play out. (Danny as starter, Lance as sixth man.) Obviously "on paper" doesn't always translate, but it's worth looking at.

    What's the worst thing that can happen? It doesn't work out, and after a few games of trying it, they switch it back? This team has good chemistry. And they're too talented to get too far off track. Plus, this is assuming Danny is healthy shortly. If he's not really contributing until March, obviously it's better to have Lance starting.
    That we lose a lot of games?

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Do you want him on the floor at the end of games or not?
    If you're looking for me to say I always want Lance out there or I never want Lance out there, it's not going to happen. I want George + Hibbert out there for defense, plus the 3 best remaining players of the night. It's noncommittal to this question, but in the heat of the game it makes sense to go with the players that are making plays that night. Butler's about the only player I wouldn't be okay with out there (unless he's got something crazy like 6 3's in the game).

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It really depends on whether Lance's shooting keeps up. If it doesn't, Danny (on paper) helps the starters more.

    And, I always feel that a quality playmaker (who can get his own shot) is better than someone who relies on people getting him a shot, to come off the bench.

    I understand the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. And I especially get it with the uncertainty with Danny. But it could work out better, and it seems like all involved want that situation to play out. (Danny as starter, Lance as sixth man.) Obviously "on paper" doesn't always translate, but it's worth looking at.

    What's the worst thing that can happen? It doesn't work out, and after a few games of trying it, they switch it back? This team has good chemistry. And they're too talented to get too far off track. Plus, this is assuming Danny is healthy shortly. If he's not really contributing until March, obviously it's better to have Lance starting.
    I don't think that Danny on paper helps the starters more. We don't need another scorer to start. We need a scorer on the second unit. We need another playmaker to hide Hill's inability to get assists. We have 3 starting scorers without Danny or Lance. People have stated that Harden came off the bench and was better than Sephalosa who started but Harden is more like Danny than he is like Lance

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Why don't we delay this discussion until Danny returns, plays off the bench and proves he's healthy and more capable than Lance. When that happens, let him be Paul's Robin or whatever you want.
    I agree that Danny needs to play off the bench until he's healthy and ready to play quality minutes. I originally actually preferred starting Orlando or Solo and bringing Lance off the bench, but Lance has played so well that I'd prefer he continues to play the rotation he's been in so far until Granger's back. But I don't think he has to prove he's more capable than Lance to be a better fit, I think he just has to prove that he's capable of playing at a starter's level.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If you've played competitive sports and want to maintain good chemistry, you have a group of guys who normally close. The alternative leads to finger pointing. Are there exceptions to that rule? Certainly and it varies by the team. But there is always a rule.
    Both Danny and Lance will be getting plenty of run with the starters that chemistry will not be a problem.

    Regardless of who starts and who comes off the bench, both will see similar minutes and will play with both the first and second unit. Even with Granger out, Vogel has Lance as the first starter out. Thats because he wants Lance to run with the second unit and to have the keys to the offense.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Danny would be fine with the second unit adding some scoring punch. I'm not understanding what's wrong with that. Danny may not work out with the starting unit even if he is 100%.
    During the pre-season did you see Danny playing fine with the second unit? I certainly didn't. On the other hand, he looked great when he played with the starters. Then again it was a small sample size and it was pre-season as well. So, we will. There is a big possibility that this whole discussion becomes moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Does the starting unit need more scoring or does it need a facilitator?
    I'd say that the starting unit needed more spacing last year. Not scoring in general but spacing in particular. We need to have good shooters out there with the starting line-up in order to make teams think twice before doubling our bigs. That's why Hill is so important as a starter for us.

    If you asked me before the season I'd say that Danny provides better spacing because this is what the numbers indicate. However, Lance is shooting so well at the moment that he is making that point moot. Right now he seems like an awesome fit in both units and I'm extremely glad about that.

    Let's ask this same question about the bench though. What does the bench needs? More scoring or a facilitator? Well, let's see what our bench players can do offensively:

    Watson: Very good 3 point shooter. Mostly a spot up player that plays off the ball. Not a facilitator.

    Orlando Johnson: Good scorer. Nice 3 point shot, strong on drives. He can play on the post a bit and create scoring opportunities for himself. He is not a facilitator, though.

    Luis Scola: Killer mid-range jumper out of the Pick and Pop. Crafty player in the low post with an array of post moves. Good passer that can facilitate out of the high post. He can create for himself and facilitate a bit for others but you cannot base your playmaking on him.

    Ian Mahinmi: Put backs and finishing on some PnRs.

    I'd say that this bench needs a facilitator. They have some good scoring in Scola, OJ and CJ but they don't have the player that can create for everyone else.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    That we lose a lot of games?
    Yeah, every game is super crucial if we want to have home court in the playoffs, which I think we need to eliminate Miami. We can't afford to throw a wrench in a starting lineup that is clearly working. That could cost us a couple of games, which could make all the difference in the world in seeding.

    If people are still calling for Lance to come off of the bench after playing so phenomenally well, then it really starts to seem like the main reason for that is that they simply want to see Granger start at all costs. The whole "Lance needs to come off of the bench so that he has the ball in his hands" thing doesn't really fly when he is starting and controlling the ball plenty in his current role. And you can't say that he's getting in the way of PG since PG is off to a ridiculously great start.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    If Lin was as good as Lance he would be starting, Lin is on the bench because he is just not that good.
    Lin is a quite good player but Harden and Howard are better than him and there is only one basketball. Beverley is a much better fit alongside Harden and Howard simply because he doesn't need the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Lin is better with the bench because unlike Beverley he can run an offense.

    Once again you're putting too much emphasis into "starting" and you completely disregard fit.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Not calling you a lier but I know where are you going with this conversation, we get it you want to start DG and bench Lance.
    The only person that wants to bench someone in this conversation is you. You would be overjoyed if Danny was never able to play a game again because it would allow you to say "I told you so".
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    During the pre-season did you see Danny playing fine with the second unit? I certainly didn't. On the other hand, he looked great when he played with the starters. .
    I don't think Danny has been impressive yet at all since he has returned. He has looked slow but the team as a whole didn't look particularly good.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If you've played competitive sports and want to maintain good chemistry, you have a group of guys who normally close. The alternative leads to finger pointing. Are there exceptions to that rule? Certainly and it varies by the team. But there is always a rule.
    Lance finishes by rule in this scenario but there are always exceptions.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I don't think Danny has been impressive yet at all since he has returned. He has looked slow but the team as a whole didn't look particularly good.
    Hey, great is a lesser scale than impressive. He looked great in that Chicago game in the second half along with the starters.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Why don't we delay this discussion until Danny returns, plays off the bench and proves he's healthy and more capable than Lance. When that happens, let him be Paul's Robin or whatever you want.
    I want him to be a 5th option that will spread the floor and therefore give more room to Lance to be Paul's Robin.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I agree that Danny needs to play off the bench until he's healthy and ready to play quality minutes. I originally actually preferred starting Orlando or Solo and bringing Lance off the bench, but Lance has played so well that I'd prefer he continues to play the rotation he's been in so far until Granger's back. But I don't think he has to prove he's more capable than Lance to be a better fit, I think he just has to prove that he's capable of playing at a starter's level.
    I agree with about half of this. Rather than point out difference, I have a question.

    What happens if Danny plays, gets up to maybe 85%, then he builds up enough scar tissue (again) by March that he can't finish the season? All that time spent when Lance could be fine tuning his game with the starters?

    Based on my readings, that tendon will never be the same physically. It has been operated on and scraped. There will always be scar tissue and I suspect it will be more susceptible to inflammation and building up more of it.

    What a shame if that happens when we could have used Danny as a "plus" for the bench. Instead, he upsets the starting unit that will indeed close the vast majority of the time, particularly in the playoffs against Miami.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    During the pre-season did you see Danny playing fine with the second unit? I certainly didn't. On the other hand, he looked great when he played with the starters. Then again it was a small sample size and it was pre-season as well. So, we will. There is a big possibility that this whole discussion becomes moot.

    This isn't meant to sound cold, but our team isn't about what makes Granger looks best. He hasn't been a part of this team since the end of 11-12, and several guys' roles have changed since then while the team made it to Game 7 of the ECF's. It's looking like the Pacers will be at their best with the current starting lineup. Even if Granger looks better with the starters, it's still a bad move overall if the team itself isn't as strong. This team shouldn't revolve around doing what's easiest for Granger.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Hey, great is a lesser scale than impressive. He looked great in that Chicago game in the second half along with the starters.
    N=1/2 pre-season game?

    Lance has looked great in all 3 games this year and pretty damn good last season.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I don't think that Danny on paper helps the starters more. We don't need another scorer to start. We need a scorer on the second unit. We need another playmaker to hide Hill's inability to get assists. We have 3 starting scorers without Danny or Lance. People have stated that Harden came off the bench and was better than Sephalosa who started but Harden is more like Danny than he is like Lance
    Harden is a lot more like Lance. Harden can both score and facilitate. Lance can score and facilitate as well. Danny is not good at facilitating.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    N=1/2 pre-season game?

    Lance has looked great in all 3 games this year and pretty damn good last season.
    I have already answered your questions so I will just quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    During the pre-season did you see Danny playing fine with the second unit? I certainly didn't. On the other hand, he looked great when he played with the starters. Then again it was a small sample size and it was pre-season as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If you asked me before the season I'd say that Danny provides better spacing because this is what the numbers indicate. However, Lance is shooting so well at the moment that he is making that point moot. Right now he seems like an awesome fit in both units and I'm extremely glad about that.
    Are we clear?
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Harden is a lot more like Lance. Harden can both score and facilitate. Lance can score and facilitate as well. Danny is not good at facilitating.
    Which is why our bigs will starve. LeBron will enjoy being guarded by Danny as well. He'll be able to operate the offense easily compared to facing Paul George who will instead be chasing DWade around the floor...as LeBron easily dishes to Birdman for a dunk or Chalmers for a three because Danny can't move fast enough to get into the passing lanes........

    Edit: the thought of an aging and, at best, recovering Granger guarding LeBron James is a HORRIBLE thought.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 11-02-2013 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm pretty sure that Bird is going to trade one or more members of the bench if the danger of losing Lance appears.
    I assume that will be the case ( bye bye Copeland )......with the way Lance is playing, I guarantee u that he will get a contract in between $6 to 8 mil a year. It will be more than the full MLE and at most what GH got. He's a Sixth Man to Starter quality Combo Player and will be paid accordingly.

    I think that the Pacers will need to clear $2 to 3 mil in salary cap to offer Lance such an offer.
    Last edited by CableKC; 11-02-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This isn't meant to sound cold, but our team isn't about what makes Granger looks best. He hasn't been a part of this team since the end of 11-12, and several guys' roles have changed since then while the team made it to Game 7 of the ECF's. It's looking like the Pacers will be at their best with the current starting lineup. Even if Granger looks better with the starters, it's still a bad move overall if the team itself isn't as strong. This team shouldn't revolve around doing what's easiest for Granger.
    Who said that I want the team to do what's easiest for Granger?

    A team plays at its best when its players play at their best. It's really, really simple.

    Hibbert at his best + West at his best + PG at his best + Lance at his best + George Hill at his best + Danny at his best + Scola at his best + Ian at his best + CJ Watson at his best + Orlando Johnson at his best + Solomon Hill at his best = Indiana Pacers at their best.

    The goal is to have this team play at its best, right? Isn't this what we want to do?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I agree with about half of this. Rather than point out difference, I have a question.

    What happens if Danny plays, gets up to maybe 85%, then he builds up enough scar tissue (again) by March that he can't finish the season? All that time spent when Lance could be fine tuning his game with the starters?

    Based on my readings, that tendon will never be the same physically. It has been operated on and scraped. There will always be scar tissue and I suspect it will be more susceptible to inflammation and building up more of it.

    What a shame if that happens when we could have used Danny as a "plus" for the bench. Instead, he upsets the starting unit that will indeed close the vast majority of the time, particularly in the playoffs against Miami.
    Lance has played 100 games with the starters between last season, post season and this season. Even if he comes off the bench, Lance will still play with the starters. As well as practice with the starters.

    I don't know why so many Lance "supporters" are acting like if Lance comes off the bench, he won't get any burn with the first unit. And if he does start, Danny won't get any time with the starters. Thats not how its going to work. You can see that right now with how Vogel is using Lance. If Granger starts all season until March and goes down with an injury, Lance's chemistry with the starters is the last thing I'm worried about. Because he will have chemistry with the starters, he already does. Thats not just going to disappear. It doesn't work like that.

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