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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

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Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

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  • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

    Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
    I think that it gives an advantage to chuckers. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Here is why I'm not a huge fan of eFG%:

    Player A shoots 6-12 from the field. He shoots 0 threes and scores 12 points. That is an eFG% of 50% since there are no threes.

    Player B shoots 4-12 from the field. All 4 of his made shots are threes, so he also scores 12 points. That is also an eFG% of 50% (4+ (0.5 x 4)/12.


    So it's true that both of these players got the same amount of points out of 12 shots. I suppose that I was guilty of of some hyperbole when I tried to completely write off these statistics. That being said, Player B missed 8 shots while Player A only missed 4. Those 4 extra misses from Player B mean something right? Those 4 misses could lead to empty possessions and fastbreak rebounds for the other team. Maybe the possession would have been better utilized if Player B would have passed it more to Player A for a higher percentage shot?

    Like I said, I think that this stat bails out chuckers.
    You tried using that earlier. I went into a long dumbed down explanation as to why if you had more misses and the same amount of points that would actually be an ADVANTAGE for the shooter.

    I realize you're attempting in any way possible to delegitimize these statistics but it is not going to work. I'm sorry.

    Comment


    • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

      Also, this is not a matter of opinion. It's a measurement.

      Comment


      • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

        Originally posted by mattie View Post
        You tried using that earlier. I went into a long dumbed down explanation as to why if you had more misses and the same amount of points that would actually be an ADVANTAGE for the shooter.

        I realize you're attempting in any way possible to delegitimize these statistics but it is not going to work. I'm sorry.
        If your points are so airtight, then why do you have to lob lame condesecending insults at every turn? Seems like you wouldn't need those insults if you had an airtight case.

        More misses and the same amount of points might be better for the shooter's statistics, but it might not be better for the team.

        Comment


        • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
          OK Spider-Man ...... what kind of person talks like that?
          You contradict yourself, lie, ********, take sentences out of context, mis-represent everyone just to "win" a debate. Which you never have. You just refuse to admit you've lost nearly ever discussion by proving you're incapable of having an honest debate.

          What kind of person wastes their time constantly lying in nearly every post they make?

          Also, what is your motivation?

          Comment


          • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

            Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
            If your points are so airtight, then why do you have to lob lame condesecending insults at every turn? Seems like you wouldn't need those insults if you had an airtight case.

            More misses and the same amount of points might be better for the shooter's statistics, but it might not be better for the team.
            Holy ****. Pay attention. It would be WORSE for the shooter (because he has a lower shooting percentage), but theoretically better for the TEAM (more chances to rebound the ball versus guaranteeing loss of possession because of a make)! I'm just pointing holes in your completely weak argument. You will not delegitimize the statistic by repeating the same dumb logic over and over.

            Stop. Just stop.
            Last edited by mattie; 11-04-2013, 11:15 AM.

            Comment


            • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

              Originally posted by mattie View Post
              You contradict yourself, lie, ********, take sentences out of context, mis-represent everyone just to "win" a debate. Which you never have. You just refuse to admit you've lost nearly ever discussion by proving you're incapable of having an honest debate.

              What kind of person wastes their time constantly lying in nearly every post they make?

              Also, what is your motivation?
              The dark side of course...
              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

              Comment


              • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                Please answer this- WHY Sollozzo, are you trying to delegitimize this statistic so badly?

                Is it because it ruins your false impression that Granger was just an inefficient chucker?

                If this is the case, give it up. Just understand you were wrong, and move on.

                Comment


                • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                  Originally posted by mattie View Post
                  Holy ****. Pay attention. It would be WORSE for the shooter (because he has a lower shooting percentage), but theoretically better for the TEAM (more chances to rebound the ball versus guaranteeing loss of possession because of a make)! I'm just pointing wholes in your completely weak argument.

                  Stop. Just stop.
                  So missing a shot and giving your team a chance to rebound the ball and MAYBE make a basket is better than making a basket and losing a possession? Absolutely hysterical.

                  Possible points are better than made points?


                  Also, you completely lose your credibility as a poster with your lame condescending insults. Me and Nuntuis have disagreed with each other throughout the course of this thread, but we always respond to each other with complete respect. You're 27, but argue as if you're a 14 year old. You make some good points, but it's hard to see them at times because your childish posting style is such a turn off.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                    The dark side of course...
                    That's not clever or witty...

                    Comment


                    • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                      Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                      So missing a shot and giving your team a chance to rebound the ball and MAYBE make a basket is better than making a basket and losing a possession? Absolutely hysterical.

                      Possible points are better than made points?


                      Also, you completely lose your credibility as a poster with your lame condescending insults. Me and Nuntuis have disagreed with each other throughout the course of this thread, but we always respond to each other with complete respect. You're 27, but argue as if you're a 14 year old. You make some good points, but it's hard to see them at times because your childish posting style is such a turn off.
                      Less made shots, same points would be better than more made shots, same points.

                      On the same token, I can have a condescending (your favorite) laugh because you think somehow if a guy scores the 12 points on 4 made threes, it is somehow worse than if a player made 12 points on 6 made buckets.

                      Jesus.
                      Last edited by mattie; 11-04-2013, 11:22 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                        I don't know why I keep discussing this. There is no point in taking you seriously. You aren't smart enough to understand basic math. So why should I keep trying to explain it?

                        I'm done with this thread.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                          Originally posted by mattie View Post
                          Less made shots, same points would be better than more made shots, same points.

                          On the same token, I can have a condescending (your favorite) laugh because you think somehow if a guy scores the 12 points on 4 made threes, it is somehow worse than if a player made 12 points on 6 made buckets.

                          Jesus.
                          If a guy goes 4 for 4 from three, then of course it's better than if a player gets 12 points from 6 of 18 shooting. But again, I'll use this example:


                          Player A shoots 6-12 from the field. He shoots 0 threes and scores 12 points. That is an eFG% of 50% since there are no threes.

                          Player B shoots 4-12 from the field. All 4 of his made shots are threes, so he also scores 12 points. That is also an eFG% of 50% (4+ (0.5 x 4)/12.


                          Sure, both of these players score the same amount of points from the same number of shots. I recognize that has value and am not denying that this is a valid statistic. All I'm saying is that the 4 extra missed shots from Player B could have potentially been used on a higher percentage shot from another player. Is that wrong? Isn't that why plenty of people like high percentage low post scoring as opposed to teams that shoot a lot of threes?

                          It's not as simple as you try to make it.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                            Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                            I recognize that has value and am not denying that this is a valid statistic.
                            Yes you are. You tried dismissing the fact by coming up with the lame comparison between Brent Barry and MJ, and when that got shut down you merely changed tactics on how to try to devalue the statistic by trying to argue how it's figured. If you're valuing the stat, then there's no reason to sit back and try to argue why it's wrong to put value on it, which is the entire point of the post I quoted.
                            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                              Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                              If a guy goes 4 for 4 from three, then of course it's better than if a player gets 12 points from 6 of 18 shooting. But again, I'll use this example:


                              Player A shoots 6-12 from the field. He shoots 0 threes and scores 12 points. That is an eFG% of 50% since there are no threes.

                              Player B shoots 4-12 from the field. All 4 of his made shots are threes, so he also scores 12 points. That is also an eFG% of 50% (4+ (0.5 x 4)/12.


                              Sure, both of these players score the same amount of points from the same number of shots. I recognize that has value and am not denying that this is a valid statistic. All I'm saying is that the 4 extra missed shots from Player B could have potentially been used on a higher percentage shot from another player. Is that wrong? Isn't that why plenty of people like high percentage low post scoring as opposed to teams that shoot a lot of threes?

                              It's not as simple as you try to make it.
                              I mentioned it in my previous post, but missed 3 pointers have two traits:

                              1) They are more frequently offensively rebounded
                              2) When they are defensively rebounded, they are more likely to result in fast breaks

                              If a team has great transition defense, missed 3's aren't a problem as long as they're not blatant quick shots.

                              But you are arguing on the extreme case, where the shot combinations equal each other. Granger's career average from 3 is 38.4%, which is much better than an equalizing 33%. His 2pt% has been steadily decreasing over his career. In Danny's specific case, you want him shooting fewer midrange jumpers. If you go to this site (http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND8.HTM) you can see at the top his shooting distribution. He shot 57% on shots inside, which tells you that if he wasn't getting fouled he was getting up a good shot from that range. However, more than 3/4 of his shots were jumpers, with an eFG% of .454. Now, he shot 38.1% from 3 (eFG% 57%) and made 123/323 3-pointers last season, which means he shot an awful 145/402 (36%) from midrange. Assuming his 3 point shooting and inside game remains strong, Granger will always be an efficient scorer. But if his role is reduced and he's not asked to create from the midrange wing? Say, because Paul George is already doing it better? He will be an efficient scorer by everybody's metric.

                              These are only "advanced" statistics by basketball standards. Weighted outcomes are actually a very basic statistical procedure. But to apply them correctly you have understand where they come from in the context of the offense.
                              Last edited by aamcguy; 11-04-2013, 12:25 PM.
                              Time for a new sig.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Four big IF's about Lance Stephenson.

                                Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                                Player A shoots 6-12 from the field. He shoots 0 threes and scores 12 points. That is an eFG% of 50% since there are no threes.

                                Player B shoots 4-12 from the field. All 4 of his made shots are threes, so he also scores 12 points. That is also an eFG% of 50% (4+ (0.5 x 4)/12.
                                This is the age-old is it better to shoot 50% from 2 or 33% from 3 problem. In isolation, from the efficiency point of view, they are equivalent. But of course this can't actually exist in isolation in a basketball game.

                                The usual arguments are that player A will have more opportunities for foul shots while player B has a greater chance of giving up fastbreak points, even though their eFG% is identical. Fortunately though, we are not just looking at eFG% right? It's just one of Dean Oliver's 4 factors after all. Both the potential FTs and rebounds given up will show up elsewhere.

                                The Pacers last season are a classic illustration of the 4 factors at work. Our team eFG% was pretty bad (and turnover % too), but we made up for it with rebounding and FTs (smashmouth basketball FTW!).

                                Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                                Sure, both of these players score the same amount of points from the same number of shots. I recognize that has value and am not denying that this is a valid statistic. All I'm saying is that the 4 extra missed shots from Player B could have potentially been used on a higher percentage shot from another player. Is that wrong? Isn't that why plenty of people like high percentage low post scoring as opposed to teams that shoot a lot of threes?
                                Well, you could argue that someone else could make better use of the 6 shots that player A missed just as well as someone else could have made use of the 8 shots that player B missed. 1 point per shot isn't great efficiency for a top scorer, either for player A or player B. So I don't buy this argument anyway.

                                Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                                It's not as simple as you try to make it.
                                True enough.
                                Last edited by wintermute; 11-04-2013, 12:21 PM.

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