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Thread: Granger out for three weeks

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The issue I'd see as the counter would be that if you think Danny is sliding as a player and think he's dealing with an injury that means he's never going to be All Star Danny Granger again, then inserting him into the starting lineup hurts the potential growth of last year's ECF starting lineup. Ideally, you want a team playing as one unit, a well oiled machine. The more games they can play together and learn each other's game until they are able to just play without thinking and can finish each other's sentences, the better.

    If you believe Granger will be in and out of the lineup and/or not bringing what another starter brings then you likely believe his insertion into the lineup, and in/out nature of injuries means the starting lineup we have at the end of the year won't be the group that could've played and developed together over the course of the year.

    If you believe Granger will soon be back to form and again be "All Star Granger" then you likely believe that he benefits the starting lineup to get him out there and gelling with the team ASAP for cohesiveness reasons at the end of the season.

    I don't think we're talking fights in the lockerroom when the conversation turns to 'chemistry' in this case. Instead it's about what gives the starting lineup the best chance to develop as a unit physically and mentally for the stretch room.

    I'm in the 'Start Lance' group because we went 7 games in the ECF with him in the starting unit. Our starting unit isn't why we lost. Don't fix what isn't broken. They should naturally get better because they have shown no signs of peaking. Add that to I haven't seen 'All Star Granger' in some time. He's older and has injury concerns. The 2nd unit could more handle a disruption in flow with a player limited in time. And an 80% Granger in the 2nd unit could still be an upgrade to the bench. I don't see it as an upgrade to the starting unit.

    And looking to the future, Lance stands a much better chance of being our future than Granger at this point. So we'd gain a year of starting unit development with Lance as a starter. Whereas with Granger it would be a blip in the road.

    But this assumes Granger is never going to be "All Star Granger" again.
    Technically he hasn't been "All Star Granger" since 2008-2009. Are we really going to assume he can't be 2012 Danny?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    A 80% Danny that moves well enough to guard and shoot open jumpers is good enough to start, but Lance would get more burn. And maybe finish.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Tonight the Pacers have slow played us all year. Danny Granger descends from the ceiling of the BLF like an angel coming down from the Heavens. When he landshe gets another "minor injury" and is out for the season
    Sorry I couldn't resist why would you want somebody with bad knees to land from the ceiling anyways

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Technically he hasn't been "All Star Granger" since 2008-2009. Are we really going to assume he can't be 2012 Danny?
    I don't think 2012 Danny meshes as well with this starting lineup as Lance.

    Danny was a chucker for most of 2012. He was off track to begin the season, found his touch, then lost it again at the end of the year. He spent a lot of time hanging out behind the arc and his defense was more about picking his spots than being anything extra special. We debated all year if O'Brien had ultimately negatively impacted Granger's game turning him into this.

    Lance is not a chucker and brings an entirely different element to the starting lineup with his speed, athleticism, strength, size, intensity and willingness to play within the role that's been carved out for him. ...And his rebounding from the guard spot is refreshing to see.

    Honestly, you've made my point... If it's about 2012 Danny Granger versus Lance then Lance wins in my opinion. The question I have is if 2012 Danny Granger was so limited by his knee that 2012 Danny Granger isn't really indicative of what a post surgery and rehab Danny Granger will be and that it allows him to be closer to All Star Danny Granger.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The issue I'd see as the counter would be that if you think Danny is sliding as a player and think he's dealing with an injury that means he's never going to be All Star Danny Granger again, then inserting him into the starting lineup hurts the potential growth of last year's ECF starting lineup. Ideally, you want a team playing as one unit, a well oiled machine. The more games they can play together and learn each other's game until they are able to just play without thinking and can finish each other's sentences, the better.

    If you believe Granger will be in and out of the lineup and/or not bringing what another starter brings then you likely believe his insertion into the lineup, and in/out nature of injuries means the starting lineup we have at the end of the year won't be the group that could've played and developed together over the course of the year.

    If you believe Granger will soon be back to form and again be "All Star Granger" then you likely believe that he benefits the starting lineup to get him out there and gelling with the team ASAP for cohesiveness reasons at the end of the season.

    I don't think we're talking fights in the lockerroom when the conversation turns to 'chemistry' in this case. Instead it's about what gives the starting lineup the best chance to develop as a unit physically and mentally for the stretch room.

    I'm in the 'Start Lance' group because we went 7 games in the ECF with him in the starting unit. Our starting unit isn't why we lost. Don't fix what isn't broken. They should naturally get better because they have shown no signs of peaking. Add that to I haven't seen 'All Star Granger' in some time. He's older and has injury concerns. The 2nd unit could more handle a disruption in flow with a player limited in time. And an 80% Granger in the 2nd unit could still be an upgrade to the bench. I don't see it as an upgrade to the starting unit.

    And looking to the future, Lance stands a much better chance of being our future than Granger at this point. So we'd gain a year of starting unit development with Lance as a starter. Whereas with Granger it would be a blip in the road.

    But this assumes Granger is never going to be "All Star Granger" again.
    This is all fine and dandy, but I don't think your chemistry worries match up with reality.

    The biggest reason being they have all played together before this season. That time playing together doesn't just disappear because there is a new season, or because of an injury. People have memories longer than 1 season. Just look at the preseason, the starters + Danny looked to have pretty good chemistry still.

    Finally skill trumps chemistry. For all of the chemistry people have said we have had the past two seasons, we still lost to the Heat both times. Last season the most dangerous combination for the Heat was Lebron to Birdman, and they didn't even have Birdman until half way through the season. The reason being, good players just know how to play. You don't need to give them 82 games to figure out how to play with each other. Give them 5 games, and they will figure it out.

    Don't fix what isn't broken, is just a way of saying you don't like change. It may not be broken, but it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. For example, in most big budget movies or games, they have playable versions that work and are good well before they are finished. Instead of saying it works and is good therefore it is done, they keep working on it because while it might be good it can still be better. This is usually called polish. Yes the line-up worked last year, but it can still be polished. That is what Granger is, he can come in and make it even better. The core to last years success was Hill, George, West, and Hibbert, not Lance. Lance was good, but that line-up wasn't good because of him. That line-up was good because of the other 4 players. If you plug in someone who is a better fit for that line-ups style, and who has at least a year's worth of experience playing with them already you are only going to make it better. The cherry on top of this is that Lance's style really fits in well with many of our back-ups, and being the main guy with the bench players really allows Lance to be the best he can be.

    I said this a few months back, Lance's potentially isn't as a starter with all-star aspirations like some think. His potential is as a sixth man of the year type. So when we have a player who is more than capable of filling Lance's role last year, than we should use him where you can get the most out of him.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think 2012 Danny meshes as well with this starting lineup as Lance.

    Danny was a chucker for most of 2012. He was off track to begin the season, found his touch, then lost it again at the end of the year. He spent a lot of time hanging out behind the arc and his defense was more about picking his spots than being anything extra special. We debated all year if O'Brien had ultimately negatively impacted Granger's game turning him into this.

    Lance is not a chucker and brings an entirely different element to the starting lineup with his speed, athleticism, strength, size, intensity and willingness to play within the role that's been carved out for him. ...And his rebounding from the guard spot is refreshing to see.

    Honestly, you've made my point... If it's about 2012 Danny Granger versus Lance then Lance wins in my opinion. The question I have is if 2012 Danny Granger was so limited by his knee that 2012 Danny Granger isn't really indicative of what a post surgery and rehab Danny Granger will be and that it allows him to be closer to All Star Danny Granger.
    Danny will never be asked to be the primary scorer again. This is Paul, David, and Roy's team now when it comes to primary offense.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The biggest reason being they have all played together before this season. That time playing together doesn't just disappear because there is a new season, or because of an injury. People have memories longer than 1 season. Just look at the preseason, the starters + Danny looked to have pretty good chemistry still.
    Not only that, but we're saying chemistry is important so Danny shouldn't play with players that he's already played with for at least one season (West), two seasons (PG/GHill), and even more with Roy, and think that the better option is for him to play beside 4 other players that he's never played with.

    If chemistry is such a question mark, then shouldn't we want him to be with people he actually knows rather than strangers?
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    This is all fine and dandy, but I don't think your chemistry worries match up with reality.

    The biggest reason being they have all played together before this season. That time playing together doesn't just disappear because there is a new season, or because of an injury.
    No, but the time missed by not utilizing your ultimate starting lineup together at every possible game can never be reclaimed. If Lance was the starter last year and excelled in his role, and will be the likely starter next season, then there's no use messing up that continuity this season. The team will never get that lost opportunity for continuity back.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Danny will never be asked to be the primary scorer again. This is Paul, David, and Roy's team now when it comes to primary offense.

    Again, another point that I consider that points to Danny moving to the 2nd unit and keeping Lance in the starting lineup.

    So I agree with you in part but it leads me to a different conclusion.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    No, but the time missed by not utilizing your ultimate starting lineup together at every possible game can never be reclaimed. If Lance was the starter last year and excelled in his role, and will be the likely starter next season, then there's no use messing up that continuity this season. The team will never get that lost opportunity for continuity back.
    The ultimate starting unit is with Danny. That is the best group of 5 we can get together.

    Continuity is another one of those nice buzz words that really isn't all that meaningful when you are talking about players who by then have played together for 3 seasons. If you are making these kind of decisions based on what may or may not be true next year you are not making the decision for the correct season. For all we know Lance won't be on this team next season.

    I know it can be hard to remember cause it has been so long, but we are a title contender. We are not rebuilding anymore, so stop thinking like a rebuilding team, and start thinking like a team that is competing for a championship. Teams that are contending for a championship aren't worried about doing things based on what may or may not happen next year, they are worried about doing what is best for this season. If this was a lottery team, I would understand, but we are not.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I haven't heard anything from Danny saying he is going to come back and do what he did before he got injured (aka be THE scorer). The dynamic of the team is so different and I really don't see that happening. He can play off of West, because he has done it. I have no fear that Danny will come in a try to take over games. He is a team player. I think he had to be THE guy because there was no one who could score consistently (and this is huge) prior to West. NO ONE.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The ultimate starting unit is with Danny. That is the best group of 5 we can get together.
    How can you say that when we haven't seen him play in quite a while ???? Let's just toss the feeble, failed 5 game effort from last year. (If that's the Granger that comes back this year, he's 8th, 9th, 10th man ...... but I digress). Let's see 1) WHEN he's ready to go and then 2) give him time off the bench to see what he's got going on and then 3) it will be clear where he belongs.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    How can you say that when we haven't seen him play in quite a while ????
    Larry Bird has, and he say's it would be ideal to have Danny as the starter. Vogel has, and he was planning to start Danny. Lance has, and he was looking forward to coming off the bench and was disappointed when he found out he'd be a starter.

    This exercise is fun and all for those of us who have nothing better to do than jibber-jabber back and forth about our feelings, but the FO, the coaching staff, and Lance have all given their opinions and they all seem to agree Danny is best served as the 5th starter.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Here's Larry saying it.
    Bird made no bones about it: He likes his team best with Granger starting and Lance Stephenson leading the second unit as a point guard.

    “That’s what I prefer,” Bird said. “I’ve always respected Danny’s game. Like everybody else, I see his good and his bad, but I think the good outweighs the bad by a large margin. I like his toughness. And I’ve always said you never lose your position through injury; somebody’s got to beat him out. Now, if Lance comes in and he’s a better player, that’s (coach Frank Vogel’s) decision.

    “But I think we’re a different type of team when he starts. ... I think Danny and Paul (George, who signed a long-term extension Tuesday) are interchangeable. This makes us a better all around team. We’ll score more points with Danny and it’ll take pressure off the bench.

    “My thing is, Danny can’t come back and think he’s a 20-point scorer. We don’t need that. We just need him to come back and play, hit the open shot, be tough. They (Granger and George) can co-exist; I don’t worry about that.”

    The season-long question, then, will not only be how the pair plays together, but whether Bird tries to move Granger before the trading deadline. Here was my takeaway from a half-hour conversation: If Granger is playing well and the Pacers are winning, Bird will hold onto Granger and try to win a title this year. If he’s struggling and the Granger-George duo isn’t quite working, he won’t hesitate to pull the trigger on a deal by the trade deadline.

    “I’ve talked to Danny about it; we definitely want to keep him,” Bird said. “But we’ve got to find a way to do that and it’s not going to be easy. I saw this coming four years ago. When we started getting better, I thought, eventually, somebody’s got to go. We signed Roy (Hibbert), David (West), Paul (George) and George (Hill), and we’re never going to go over the luxury tax, so you add it up, eventually, somebody’s got to go. Right now, we’re strapped a little bit. But I would like to see it through the year. If it’s working good, I’m going with it (keeping Granger).”
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2013...S15/309240072/

    So saying that the conclusion can't be reached, because we haven't seen him play, when people who have seen him play much more than anyone that's watched all the preseason games says the exact same thing, it shouldn't be so casually dismissed. Especially when that someone is Larry Bird, the architect of this team, and someone who has solidified their place in basketball history with his playing, coaching, and GM resume.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You know full well that I'm not comparing Solo to Gerald Green. My point is that not just anyone can come in and START on a top 3 NBA team whose entire identity is wrapped up in defense, much less a rookie with zero NBA experience.
    You are putting too much meaning into the word "start". It is never about who is starting. It is about who finishes. OKC used to start Thabo Sefolosha instead of James Harden for purely defensive purposes. Who was finishing the games? It was Harden.

    No one suggesting that Solo / OJ should start ahead of Lance and play 30+ MPG. What some people are suggesting is that it could be a good idea to start Solo / OJ for the first 5 minutes in order for Lance to play more minutes with the bench allowing him to have the ball in his hands. Lance will still play starter minutes and finish games, of course.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Solo is a late round rookie, and it's beyond rare for a late round rookie to start on one of the best teams in the NBA. Finally, we had a coach last year who gave our first round pick ZERO opportunity to prove anything. I'm not comparing Plumlee to Solo, but I think it's fair to say that our coach isn't going to let a rookie go out there and play unless they can play like a vet. Because of all of this, it's my prediction that we won't see much of Solo this year, and certainly won't see him anywhere near a starting role. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and I will be glad to admit it because that would mean that the Pacers drafted a complete steal.
    Miles received ZERO opportunity for us because we had a complete big man rotation. Simply put, we didn't have any minutes available for him and that's why they didn't play.

    As far as rookies are concerned now. They can certainly play if there is a need for them. The Bulls needed Marquis Teague to play for them and he did. The Warriors needed Draymond Green and he played 79 games for them and even tried to take over a playoff game. The Mavs needed Jae Crowder and he was one of the positive surprises in an otherwise underwhelming season due to Dirk's injury. We need Orlando Johnson to produce and he did.

    There is not a rule anywhere that says that rookies cannot play. Sure, you can expect them to come in and be world beaters right off the gate but I believe that if the rookie is good enough then you could expect him to give you 5-10 MPG.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    So I guess you feel comfortable in predicting that Solo will play big minutes this season and be a serious threat to Lance's starting job?
    The number of people that are predicting that is exactly zero (0). No one in this forum is saying something like that.

    My suggestion states clearly that Solo/OJ would play 5 minutes at the start of each half in order to allow Lance to play more with the bench and have the ball in his hands. That's it. I'm not suggesting that Solo/OJ would play big minutes and threaten Lance's job.

    Seriously, I have stated the above a number of times and I'm still baffled that you keep getting it wrong.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 10-29-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The ultimate starting unit is with Danny. That is the best group of 5 we can get together.

    Continuity is another one of those nice buzz words that really isn't all that meaningful when you are talking about players who by then have played together for 3 seasons. If you are making these kind of decisions based on what may or may not be true next year you are not making the decision for the correct season. For all we know Lance won't be on this team next season.

    I know it can be hard to remember cause it has been so long, but we are a title contender. We are not rebuilding anymore, so stop thinking like a rebuilding team, and start thinking like a team that is competing for a championship. Teams that are contending for a championship aren't worried about doing things based on what may or may not happen next year, they are worried about doing what is best for this season. If this was a lottery team, I would understand, but we are not.
    Bball provided a pretty articulate post for all the reasons why Lance makes us better regardless of continuity. I like Granger. I want him back. But I think Lance makes us a better team. Everybody has an opinion.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Lance has, and he was looking forward to coming off the bench and was disappointed when he found out he'd be a starter.

    This exercise is fun and all for those of us who have nothing better to do than jibber-jabber back and forth about our feelings, but the FO, the coaching staff, and Lance have all given their opinions and they all seem to agree Danny is best served as the 5th starter.
    I think I might have missed this somehow.

    Could you help me find where Lance has said he prefers coming off the bench?

    That'd be interesting to read about.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I really miss the days where we could all just agree to disagree and move on. I've been around Pacers message boards since 1994 and I've seen the ups and I've seen the downs and in the end it all balances out. However I will freely admit that this particular down is just depressing.

    For a fan base that suffered together from brawls to character issues to Jim O'Brien to lack of talent and to rebuilding and to now being finally poised to take a leap forward it's sad to be this fractured at a time when we should all be coming together to rejoice. For the first time in I don't know how long I've stepped away from posting because frankly it's just to contentious.

    It's very sad to me to be honest with you because this really should be a time to rejoice.

    P.S. Also for the record this has nothing to do with one particular poster.
    Peck, people can disagree with each other without indicating a fracture within the fanbase. I have disagreed with a number of people in this forum but that doesn't mean that I think negatively about them. You can easily disagree with someone, discuss this issue and still see each other eye to eye. Disagreement doesn't equal hostility.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    13/4/2014

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  32. #171
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I think I might have missed this somehow.

    Could you help me find where Lance has said he prefers coming off the bench?

    That'd be interesting to read about.
    http://blogs.pacers.com/2013/10/28/s...off-the-bench/
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  34. #172
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yep he had the "flu" and then he was out for the season.
    See, it's stuff like that. That's why people keep saying that you have an agenda and spread propaganda. This flu was proven by a fellow PD poster. Do you think that he was just trying to cover it up as well? Do you call him a liar?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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  36. #173
    Redemption. docpaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This is probably the best reason to start Granger when he comes back. At least give it a whirl.

    It's exciting to see that Lance embraces this role. I agree, he could be dominant as a leader of the second team.

  37. #174
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Bball provided a pretty articulate post for all the reasons why Lance makes us better regardless of continuity.
    If he did it wasn't in the posts I responded to.

  38. #175
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    The number of people that are predicting that is exactly zero (0). No one in this forum is saying something like that.

    My suggestion states clearly that Solo/OJ would play [u]5 minutes[u] at the start of each half in order to allow Lance to play more with the bench and have the ball in his hands. That's it. I'm not suggesting that Solo/OJ would play big minutes and threaten Lance's job.

    Seriously, I have stated the above a number of times and I'm still baffled that you keep getting it wrong.

    If Solo is good enough to start those first five crucial minutes of the game, then he's good enough to play reasonably heavy minutes. There's no separating the two. Find me any elite team in the NBA who starts a guy for 5 minutes in each half and then doesn't play him in any of the next 19 minutes.

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