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Thread: Granger out for three weeks

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    As for the minutes played, it looks to me like it's just a sign of how healthy the knee was, and then he got a new unrelated injury that any player might have gotten. Joakim Noah had a groin strain during the preseason, for example.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Nope. Lance is a special talent. Not everyone can be Lance.
    Yeah, because Lance was special defensive player coming into the league. You want to talk about whacky, trying to use Gerald Green as a justification why you don't think SHill can do something, is about as whacky as it gets.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I literally addressed this in my initial response to the thread, man:



    This over-simplistic 'reasoning' is just driving me nuts. Yes, he was hurt very badly last year, causing him to miss essentially all season. No, this was not the case for years prior to last season. No, the current injury is not the same injury he had last year.

    It's not that hard to see why this isn't the kiss of death, people. And unless you have some evidence to support this notion that his knee injury last year followed up by a calf strain now means he's just going to keep getting hurt all the time, you really ought to stop acting like that's a fact.

    If that's such a given fact, then please enlighten the rest of us as to when, what, and why he's going to keep getting injured from now on. I'm all for learning something new, if in fact it's the truth. I just think you guys are making it up out of worry or paranoia (or for at least one person, agenda/propaganda).
    I feel that my stance has been pretty reasonable from the get-go now. I will believe that Danny will be a consistent contributor this season when I see it. What off the wall predictions have I made? The only prediction I've made is that the Pacers will choose Lance over Danny in the off-season.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I wish Lance was as good on the floor night to night as he sounds on this forum, by the way. Look, I like the guy when he's out there shining bright, but on average I didn't think he was special last year, and at times he was just awful. Paul was awful for a bit, too, but on the whole I thought he was clearly better and more reliable than Lance, and most of the time the gap was noticeable as the season progressed into the spring. And I think the gap between their average performances will only widen this season. I just think Lance is okay on the whole, with moments of brilliance paired with moments of "WTF".

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I feel that my stance has been pretty reasonable from the get-go now. I will believe that Danny will be a consistent contributor this season when I see it. What off the wall predictions have I made? The only prediction I've made is that the Pacers will choose Lance over Danny in the off-season.
    So I'm clear, you're saying you do NOT expect him to keep getting injured over and over all season long, or that you do expect that?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, because Lance was special defensive player coming into the league. You want to talk about whacky, trying to use Gerald Green as a justification why you don't think SHill can do something, is about as whacky as it gets.
    You know full well that I'm not comparing Solo to Gerald Green. My point is that not just anyone can come in and START on a top 3 NBA team whose entire identity is wrapped up in defense, much less a rookie with zero NBA experience.

    Regardless of what Lance was supposed to be coming into the league, the point is that he has already proven that he fits in perfect with our defensive scheme. Yes, we started an unproven Lance last year when we literally had no other choice. But we do have a choice now, and the answer is to guy with who has already proven he can do the job. Let's see Solo get some actual consistent minutes before we start him on a top 3 team in place of a guy who has already proven he can do the job.

    The proof will be in the pudding. My prediction is that Lance will start all season and be very successful at it. I'll take that bet any day.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Jesus wept.

    I obviously can't help but wonder if we ran his minutes up too much, too soon, but c'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    As for the minutes played, it looks to me like it's just a sign of how healthy the knee was, and then he got a new unrelated injury that any player might have gotten. Joakim Noah had a groin strain during the preseason, for example.
    I agree that this is likely what happened, but what if the strain was because the conditioning just wasn't there yet? I don't know. Either way, just brutal. I think a big part of our sluggish start last year was just the mental blow of losing Danny at the 11th hour. Hopefully we don't repeat that.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    So I'm clear, you're saying you do NOT expect him to keep getting injured over and over all season long, or that you do expect that?

    I'm not counting on a player who hasn't played consistent ball in a year in a half. Anything he gives us will be gravy. I'll leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You know full well that I'm not comparing Solo to Gerald Green. My point is that not just anyone can come in and START on a top 3 NBA team whose entire identity is wrapped up in defense, much less a rookie with zero NBA experience.

    Regardless of what Lance was supposed to be coming into the league, the point is that he has already proven that he fits in perfect with our defensive scheme. Yes, we started an unproven Lance last year when we literally had no other choice. But we do have a choice now, and the answer is to guy with who has already proven he can do the job. Let's see Solo get some actual consistent minutes before we start him on a top 3 team in place of a guy who has already proven he can do the job.

    The proof will be in the pudding. My prediction is that Lance will start all season and be very successful at it. I'll take that bet any day.
    If you're not comparing them, then GG has no reason to be brought up.

    My point, is that Lance really isn't that good of an individual defender. He's just not. Yes, he does fit the scheme, which gives me the indication that it's more the scheme (and his way above average teammates in Roy/PG) and less Lance.


    I'm not saying Solo will be some defensive juagernaut, but I know using GG and the fact that he's a rookie as justificiation for why you think he won't, doesn't pass the smell test. I see this type of reasoning, using unrelated comparisons as fact, way too much in this discussion, and it gets really tiring to see it trotted out at any given opportunity.
    Last edited by Since86; 10-28-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So the "minor injury" is so "minor" that he has to take about 4 weeks off to recover(26 days to be exact) interesting.....
    Look, I know you think it's his knee, but I'll just point this out. If Danny has a grade II strain, he is actually exactly right on for typical healing. Check it out.

    http://orthopedics.about.com/od/spra...calfstrain.htm


    • Grade II Calf Strain: Moderate discomfort with walking, and limited ability to perform activities, such as running and jumping; may have swelling and bruising associated. (Right now we've been told he can't run, so that is why I am assuming Grade II, perhaps it was originally grade I, but then he played on it and it escalated to grade II)


    Calf Strain Healing Time

    The length of time needed for healing a calf strain depends on the severity of the injury. A typical grade I calf strain will heal in 7 to 10 days, a grade II injury within about 4 to 6 weeks, and a grade III calf strain within about 3 months. The most common injury is a grade II calf strain that takes about 6 weeks for complete healing.

    Just saying....I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but just giving the facts on the injury. I know most of us hear strain and think about that time you pulled it reaching for something, but it's usually more severe than that. Especially if you do it during actual physical activity.



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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I kind of agree with you because I remember telling Sollozzo about how stupid it was for them to try to prove that DG was back by not limiting his minutes and all that but then I listened to his interview about how he got injured and it looks like he was the one pushing them to give him as many minutes as they could, so sure blame the Pacers but also blame Danny for not taking care of himself.
    Well I guess you can blame Danny for not taking care of himself when they had to leave Indy 1 hour after the Chicago game, 18 hour flight, bunch of required media appearances, then practice, Manila game, another long flight to Taipei, More required media appearances, then Practice, Taipei Game, then another long flight back to Indianapolis, then practice and games against Dallas. I think you get the picture...

    Not sure how much rest and taking care of yourself you can do 40K feet in the air, and even how effective it would be with that kind of schedule. Not to mention the jet lag on your body. But lets not forget that all the starters had that 4th game off to you know REST. But lets not rest the guy rehabbing from a long injury..... Stupid Vogel.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If you're not comparing them, then GG has no reason to be brought up.

    My point, is that Lance really isn't that good of an individual defender. He's just not. Yes, he does fit the scheme, which gives me the indication that it's more the scheme (and his way above average teammates in Roy/PG) and less Lance.


    I'm not saying Solo will be some defensive juagernaut, but I know using GG and the fact that he's a rookie as justificiation for why you think he won't, doesn't pass the smell test. I see this type of reasoning, using unrelated comparisons as fact, way too much in this discussion, and it gets really tiring to see it trotted out at any given opportunity.
    Thankfully these sorts of debates will be resolved very shortly. If it's the scheme that makes the players, then I fully expect to see Hill get quite a few minutes this season since he is young and obviously has the physical tools to excel. If he doesn't get a lot of minutes, then that will tell us that not just anyone can immediately be plugged into the system and produce to the standards of a team that is competing to be the best in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    http://orthopedics.about.com/od/spra...calfstrain.htm
    Symptoms of a Calf Strain

    An acute calf strain can be quite painful, depending on the severity of the injury. Calf strains are usually graded as follows:
    • Grade I Calf Strain: Mild discomfort, often minimal disability. Usually minimal or no limits to activity.
    • Grade II Calf Strain: Moderate discomfort with walking, and limited ability to perform activities, such as running and jumping; may have swelling and bruising associated.
    • Grade III Calf Strain: Severe injury that can cause inability to walk. Often patients complain of muscle spasm, swelling and significant bruising.


    Since the Pacers were thinking Danny would only be out a couple games it appears they thought the calf strain a grade 1, where now they think it's a grade 2.

    Calf Strain Treatments

    Treatment of a calf strain is usually guided by the severity of the injury. Resting a pulled calf muscle is the key to successful treatment. As a general rule of thumb, if you have a calf strain, you can do activities that don't aggravate your injury. You should rest until you are pain free to allow the injured muscle to heal. Resting inadequately may prolong your recovery.

    Calf Strain Healing Time

    The length of time needed for healing a calf strain depends on the severity of the injury. A typical grade I calf strain will heal in 7 to 10 days, a grade II injury within about 4 to 6 weeks, and a grade III calf strain within about 3 months. The most common injury is a grade II calf strain that takes about 6 weeks for complete healing.

    It's been 10 days since Granger strained his calf, so if he is out three more weeks that would be 4 1/2 weeks.
    I see Will beat me to it, but it stands to be repeated.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I agree that this is likely what happened, but what if the strain was because the conditioning just wasn't there yet? I don't know.
    Wouldn't the team's medical staff know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe
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    Either way, just brutal. I think a big part of our sluggish start last year was just the mental blow of losing Danny at the 11th hour. Hopefully we don't repeat that.
    See, I don't think it's brutal at all, just frustrating. Last year it was 'out indefinitely' because of a knee issue, and he wasn't coming back any time soon, plus at that point some of the younger guys thought they'd be playing 'behind him' so to speak because of his role on the team. Not only did those guys realize they can handle it themselves, but this time it's not 'out indefinitely because of knee', it's 'we're sitting him three weeks so a calf strain can heal.' Not remotely similar to me beyond what point of the season we're in.

    And last preseason, he couldn't even get on the floor except for the last two preseason games, where he played 12 and 22 minutes before shutting it down prior to our game @TOR.

    The devil's in the details.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    As for the minutes played, it looks to me like it's just a sign of how healthy the knee was, and then he got a new unrelated injury that any player might have gotten. Joakim Noah had a groin strain during the preseason, for example.
    I do think it could indirectly be from the injury though. As in he went from not playing to playing 30mpg. They didn't really give his body a chance to ease back into things, which can lead to such injuries.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You're only looking at it through the offensive end. Lance is crucial because he fits in perfectly with our defensive scheme. I just don't buy that a rookie in Solo with no NBA experience would immediately be able to start and play acceptable defense with limited mistakes Gerald Green is a vet who has been in the NBA for a long time, yet he was benched for not being able to play within our defense last year. I'm not saying that Solo will be Gerald Green, but it's pretty clear that not just anyone can come in and play defense for the Pacers. OJ and Solo have never played consistent minutes. I would be stunned if Vogel started either of those guys. The beginning of the game is crucial and we can not have guys making mistakes while leaving Lance on the bench, who we know full well can play great defense in our system.
    No, I'm looking at both ends.

    Yes, Solo is a rookie. But Oladipo is a rookie as well and he will be a starter from day 1. Do rookies make mistake? Sure. Every player make mistakes and rookies tend to do more mistakes than the average player. However, that doesn't mean that a player that has been known for his defensive prowess like Solomon Hill and Victor Oladipo will suddenly stop playing D simply because this is the NBA. Will they be growing pains? Sure. But I don't see either of them failing to make the transition to play D in the NBA.

    As far as OJ is concerned, he has already proved that he can play D for our team. He was a pretty respectable defender last year when he played.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Lance can still play minutes with some bench players and have the ball in his hands. Vogel learned his lesson after the 2012 Miami series that it's not a good idea to play 5 bench players.
    And he will play minutes with the bench because that's the right thing to do. Vogel has already showed signs that he is willing to use him with the bench more in the last 2 pre-season games that he subbed him out early in order to use him more with the bench.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Why can't we afford to let Lance develop on last year's role? Danny didn't play last year either, yet we got to Game 7 of the ECF's with Lance playing the role he did.
    I'll explain why. Have you seen how Lance plays when he is with the starters? He plays good D, he is aggressive on the boards and offensively he plays off the ball. However, his 3 point shot is not good enough yet in order to force other teams to committ to him and thus that increases the pressure on our bigs. He will make smart cuts occasionally and we will feed him some easy baskets (plus the ones that he will get on the open court) but the ball will not be in his hands. Paul George and David West will continue to be the ones that have the ball in their hands the most.

    Have you seen how Lance plays when he is with the bench? He still plays good D, he is still aggressive ont he boards but on top of everything he gets to have the ball in his hands. He is much more aggressive offensively and he will try to create for everyone. He may drive to the basket and kick it out for a CJ Watson 3. He may drive to the rim, draw a help defender and then dish out to an open Ian Mahinmi under the rim (and strangely Lance's passes are the only passes that Mahinmi doesn't bobble). He may perform a Pick and Pop with Scola. He may take his man off the dribble and bury a jumper. In other words, he is being active. That cannot happen when he is playing with the starters since he isn't going to have the ball in his hands.

    That's why Lance should spent time with the bench. Because he is giving us a Manu Ginobili-like spark off the bench.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Look, I know you think it's his knee, but I'll just point this out. If Danny has a grade II strain, he is actually exactly right on for typical healing. Check it out.
    Nope I don't think is the knee but I believe that not playing for a long time and playing crazy minutes from the get go is what got him injured, the Pacers need to realize that he can't play that many minutes anymore and the sooner they figure this out the better for everybody.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I understand everyone's concern who is concerned that this will be a lingering issue. I'm not trying to take away anyone's right to be concerned. Heck, I'm a bit concerned myself, but at the very least the recovery schedule they are putting out there is not out of line if it is the calf. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm not counting on a player who hasn't played consistent ball in a year in a half. Anything he gives us will be gravy. I'll leave it at that.
    Sorry, but that is just code for, "He's going to keep getting hurt." If you didn't think so, you wouldn't be banging the 'not going to count on him' drum.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nope I don't think is the knee but I believe that not playing for a long time and playing crazy minutes from the get go is what got him injured, the Pacers need to realize that he can't play that many minutes anymore and the sooner they figure this out the better for everybody.
    Ok, if that's your case I don't know that I can really disagree. I was honestly baffled that he strained the calf and then they immediately had him playing (and starting) in the next game.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Wouldn't the team's medical staff know?
    In Candace Buckner's piece, she called it an overuse injury, which makes sense. The fact that he didn't have any complications with the knee, while the other healthy parts of his body are having a hard time adjusting to the stress should be be a good thing.

    IMHO, I think we're seeing the training staff go ultra-conservative with Danny.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Thankfully these sorts of debates will be resolved very shortly.
    The debate isn't the problem....
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Sorry, but that is just code for, "He's going to keep getting hurt." If you didn't think so, you wouldn't be banging the 'not going to count on him' drum.

    What exactly do you want me to say?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The debate isn't the problem....
    Huh?

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