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Thread: Granger out for three weeks

  1. #326
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I think its pretty clear now that Danny will be coming off the bench for the rest of the season, Team is just off to a great start. This just means that when Danny is back those 2nd qtr scoring droughts will be a thing of the past.
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  3. #327
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I think its pretty clear now that Danny will be coming off the bench for the rest of the season, Team is just off to a great start. This just means that when Danny is back those 2nd qtr scoring droughts will be a thing of the past.
    Maybe.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I think its pretty clear now that Danny will be coming off the bench for the rest of the season, Team is just off to a great start. This just means that when Danny is back those 2nd qtr scoring droughts will be a thing of the past.
    Maybe. Vogel says:

    “Who starts and who doesn’t is less important to me as who’s getting the most minutes and the way Lance is playing, Lance is going to get the bulk of the minutes,” Vogel said before the game. “If we decide to start Danny Granger, it will be because it just stretches the rotation out, to have a stronger bench. But certainly Lance, so far, has been one of our best players.”
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  6. #329
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I think we're probably at the place where Danny is going to have to earn his spot back. I think he could do it, but he'll have to show he can as opposed to needing to be shown he can't hold it, which would have been the case had he been able to play the whole preseason.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    He absolutely will have to earn it. Lance is playing so well right now I don't see it happening unless they kind of X past one another (like a line graph, one rises as the other dips) as the season moves along. But if Lance is relatively like this all year... I don't see it. But that's great, and it doesn't mean Danny has no way of playing well off the bench.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I mean at full health our playoff lineup should be absurd:

    Hill 30/Watson 18
    Lance 36/Danny 12
    Paul 40/Danny 10
    West 34/Scola 14 (or something like that; give or take)
    Hibbert 36/Ian 12

    Mmm.

    If Danny still has issues, then give those 22 minutes to Orlando and you're still looking really, really good.

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  10. #332
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So Frank Vogel is wrong, and BnG is right.
    No. In fact, we are both right. Frank says what he needs to say when he needs to say it. I will just leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I get what you're saying, but I think in this instance it's a fact and not an opinion. I don't always agree with Frank's opinion, but when he say's something factual about his system, there's no a whole lot of standing room to disagree with him. And seeing as how it's his system....
    I think he's talking "in theory" or "in general" when he says they are interchangeable. That all gets thrown right out the window when you have Granger guarding DWade. So yes, I agree with Frank. I just think you are attributing something to what he's saying that isn't true.

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  14. #334
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think he's talking "in theory" or "in general" when he says they are interchangeable. That all gets thrown right out the window when you have Granger guarding DWade. So yes, I agree with Frank. I just think you are attributing something to what he's saying that isn't true.
    No way can Danny Granger guard Dwyane Wade. But as long as his jumper's falling at his usual percentage, no way can Wade guard Danny. He's lazy at following people around screens, even in the playoffs, and though he can block shots like a big man he can't do it when his man posts up. As long as we can keep them from getting out in transition you don't lose anything by having Danny instead of Lance. on the defensive end.

    We don't matchup to others, we let them matchup to us. If Granger's the starter in the postseason, it's because Frank's decided that's the lineup he wants.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    No way can Danny Granger guard Dwyane Wade. But as long as his jumper's falling at his usual percentage, no way can Wade guard Danny. He's lazy at following people around screens, even in the playoffs, and though he can block shots like a big man he can't do it when his man posts up. As long as we can keep them from getting out in transition you don't lose anything by having Danny instead of Lance. on the defensive end.

    We don't matchup to others, we let them matchup to us. If Granger's the starter in the postseason, it's because Frank's decided that's the lineup he wants.
    Unless DWade has lost 2 steps, Danny will be guarding Lebron. Danny might not guard Lebron as well as Paul on the wing, but Paul can't guard Lebron as well as Danny in the post. (hence why we had Lance guard Lebron in the post some in the playoffs) Having Danny guard Lebron plays into our system better than having Paul guard Lebron. If Wade is back to who he was the year before last I would prefer Lance to guard Lebron. Neither Danny or Lance are quick enough to adequately guard Wade, but both of them have the strength to adequately guard Lebron.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Unless DWade has lost 2 steps, Danny will be guarding Lebron. Danny might not guard Lebron as well as Paul on the wing, but Paul can't guard Lebron as well as Danny in the post. (hence why we had Lance guard Lebron in the post some in the playoffs) Having Danny guard Lebron plays into our system better than having Paul guard Lebron. If Wade is back to who he was the year before last I would prefer Lance to guard Lebron. Neither Danny or Lance are quick enough to adequately guard Wade, but both of them have the strength to adequately guard Lebron.
    I don't think that Danny's going to be strong enough this season to guard him in the post better than Paul can. You can see Paul's added muscle since last season, and Danny's been limited in the leg work he can do for quite a while. Not to say that he's never going to be guarding him, because to have success against LeBron defensively you have to throw him changeups every now and then. Offensively for the Pacers, I don't think Wade will do a very good job at guarding any of our guys. He's pretty good at spotting us 6-8 points a night on easy backdoor cuts and wide open 3 pointers every time we play.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by brownjake43 View Post
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    So Orlando Johnson and Solo Hill are combining for around 23 MPG. Will Granger eventually take all of those minutes?
    Honestly I think OJ and Solo are getting minutes early so that they can actually learn how to play with the team in the extreme case that they are actually needed later in the season. Copeland hasn't played much but he is paid to be shooter so his role is defined in my book.

    Getting Danny back will be a huge boost but the most important return will be G. Hill. That knocks Watson back to the bench, in turn making our bench that much better.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    The way I look at it, we will have a top 6th man no matter who comes off the bench.

    You bring Danny off the bench then he's a number 1 option with that unit who's able to spread the floor, drive, post up, etc. (assuming health)

    If Lance comes off the bench then we have evergy, facilitating, and an improved jump shot coming off the bench. Either way, the other teams bench is gonna struggle guarding either of these guys.

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  23. #339
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    If the Pacers keep Danny on the bench when hes healthy then they should consider keeping Watson in the starting lineup as well and having Hill and Granger lead the bench. As always, who plays at the end of games has no bearing on who starts.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think he's talking "in theory" or "in general" when he says they are interchangeable. That all gets thrown right out the window when you have Granger guarding DWade. So yes, I agree with Frank. I just think you are attributing something to what he's saying that isn't true.
    Sounds like JOb, who thinks the Pacers should change what they're doing based off of the other team.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Sounds like JOb, who thinks the Pacers should change what they're doing based off of the other team.
    When that team is the two time defending champ who has knocked you out of the playoffs two straight years, and when that player is a HOF 3 time champ who is still a top 10 player in the league......yeah.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    When that team is the two time defending champ who has knocked you out of the playoffs two straight years, and when that player is a HOF 3 time champ who is still a top 10 player in the league......yeah.
    So when the Heat go small, you think Hibbert should sit the bench too I take it, or is there an exception to that rule?

    Frank refused to sit him last year, and forced Miami to come back with someone that atleast could attempt to handle Roy. You can have your JOb theory, I'll keep mine.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So when the Heat go small, you think Hibbert should sit the bench too I take it, or is there an exception to that rule?

    Frank refused to sit him last year, and forced Miami to come back with someone that atleast could attempt to handle Roy. You can have your JOb theory, I'll keep mine.
    Yeah that's exactly what I said.

    BnG was talking about Granger and Wade. Don't twist my comment into meaning that I think the Pacers should completely nuke how they play the game.

    Frank already directly changed something as a result of playing the Heat. After he saw how bad of an idea it was to play 5 bench players together in the 2012 playoffs against them, he will never to it again. So the idea that we won't make adjustments based off of playing the Heat just isn't true. That doesn't mean that I'm going "JOb" and want a starting lineup of Scola-Granger-PG-Lance-Hill.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah that's exactly what I said.
    Guess you missed the question mark at the end. Usually that indicates a quesiton, rather than a statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    BnG was talking about Granger and Wade. Don't twist my comment into meaning that I think the Pacers should completely nuke how they play the game.

    Frank already directly changed something as a result of playing the Heat. After he saw how bad of an idea it was to play 5 bench players together in the 2012 playoffs against them, he will never to it again. So the idea that we won't make adjustments based off of playing the Heat just isn't true. That doesn't mean that I'm going "JOb" and want a starting lineup of Scola-Granger-PG-Lance-Hill.
    That change wasn't made because of the Heat. That change was made during the regular season, because the bench sucked. Any other examples?
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That change wasn't made because of the Heat. That change was made during the regular season, because the bench sucked. Any other examples?
    The bench doesn't suck this season, yet how many times do you see 5 bench players out there? That Heat series left a lasting impression.

    And yes, I have an example from just the other night. Rose burned CJ a couple of times in the first half, then Frank decided to stick PG on him. PG completely shut him down in the second half. Yet it's far-fetched to think that Frank would consider who will be better at defending Wade in the playoffs between Lance and Granger? I mean, that's what coaching is, isn't it?

    Of course Frank is going to mix some things around based on match-ups. That doesn't mean that anyone is saying that we're going to completely nuke the philosophy of our team.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I don't think that Danny's going to be strong enough this season to guard him in the post better than Paul can. You can see Paul's added muscle since last season, and Danny's been limited in the leg work he can do for quite a while. Not to say that he's never going to be guarding him, because to have success against LeBron defensively you have to throw him changeups every now and then. Offensively for the Pacers, I don't think Wade will do a very good job at guarding any of our guys. He's pretty good at spotting us 6-8 points a night on easy backdoor cuts and wide open 3 pointers every time we play.
    That is possible, it is hard to say for sure until we actually play them. Either way though it is more about is Danny v Lebron and Paul v Wade more favorable or is Danny v Wade and Paul v Lebron more favorable. Even if Paul is as good as Danny in the post you are in a much stronger position defensively with Danny on Lebron as Danny is much more capable of guarding Lebron than Wade, while Paul is just as capable of guarding either one, and if anything he is better at guarding Wade than Lebron. I mean two years ago he completely dominated Wade for two games, while he did well against Lebron he never even came close to dominating him defensively.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The bench doesn't suck this season, yet how many times do you see 5 bench players out there.
    During the Bulls game. EDIT: And even if they weren't, it still shows that it's because of the bench, not because of the opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    And yes, I have an example from just the other night. Rose burned CJ a couple of times in the first half, then Frank decided to stick PG on him. PG completely shut him down in the second half. Yet it's far-fetched to think that Frank would consider who will be better at defending Wade in the playoffs between Lance and Granger? I mean, that's what coaching is, isn't it?

    Of course Frank is going to mix some things around based on match-ups. That doesn't mean that anyone is saying that we're going to completely nuke the philosophy of our team.
    Sorry, but that's not an example of sitting someone to match up with the opponent, seeing as how CJ stayed in the game, just guarded a different player.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-08-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    During the Bulls game.
    It's been very few times this season and will continue to be that way.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It's been very few times this season and will continue to be that way.
    Which even if true, has NOTHING to do with the original point of changing lineups to fit your opponent.
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    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    The one obvious example your're missing is when Frank took out Hibbert during game 1 and LeBron got the layup at the end. But that only strengthens MY argument, because Frank came back and said he wouldn't do it again, that he needs to have his best on the floor.

    If Vogel thinks Granger is the better option with the starters, which he obviously does/did considering his reported statements and the fact that Lance was set to come off the bench, I think it's a safe assumption to make that Frank views that as his best.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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