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Thread: Granger out for three weeks

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I can't read the article but what is this saying: That between two specific players that are prototypical SF's it doesn't matter which one plays SG? Or is it saying that between any players the SG and SF is always interchangeable?
    That betwen any players SG and SF is always interchangeable, because they run sets for specific players, not positions.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That doesn't answer my question.

    BnG said the ball movement is crappy, and is arguing Lance would fix the problem. The problem is WITH Lance, so how does Lance fix it?
    How has the problem been with Lance this season? Lance is second in assists and averages the fewest turnovers of any starter. Those stats have a lot to do with ball movement, and through three games Lance is doing pretty well with them. And this is with controlling the ball more than he ever has. Three games is a small sample size, but so far so good.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    How has the problem been with Lance this season? Lance is second in assists and averages the fewest turnovers of any starter. Those stats have a lot to do with ball movement, and through three games Lance is doing pretty well with them. And this is with controlling the ball more than he ever has. Three games is a small sample size, but so far so good.
    I said the problem is with Lance, as in the starters have crappy ball movement and a lot of turnovers with Lance in the lineup, so how does keeping Lance in the lineup fix the problem?

    There isn't an answer, IMHO, because the turnover problem is coming from other players. I don't think keeping Lance in the lineup is going to change anything, nor do I think swapping in Granger is going to make it worse. I'm just pointing out that the argument doesn't fit in with reality of what is actually happening.

    And for the record, the Pacers were 7th best in turnovers with Danny as a starter in 11-12, and 9th last year with Lance as a starter, so I really don't think either one impacts turnovers one way or the other.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I said the problem is with Lance, as in the starters have crappy ball movement and a lot of turnovers with Lance in the lineup, so how does keeping Lance in the lineup fix the problem?

    There isn't an answer, IMHO, because the turnover problem is coming from other players. I don't think keeping Lance in the lineup is going to change anything, nor do I think swapping in Granger is going to make it worse. I'm just pointing out that the argument doesn't fit in with reality of what is actually happening.

    And for the record, the Pacers were 7th best in turnovers with Danny as a starter in 11-12, and 9th last year with Lance as a starter, so I really don't think either one impacts turnovers one way or the other.
    Keeping Lance might not fix the problem if the problems are with other players who he can't control (i.e. our starting pg not having true pg abilities at times), but taking him out of the lineup might hurt the problem even more if he is one of the better players at ball movement, which he has been this season.

    The Pacers were not a great scoring team last year, but taking David West out of the lineup, who was their second best scorer, certainly would have hurt us in the scoring department.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    And to go back to Nunt's point about shooting. The Pacers were 6th in 3pt shooting during the 11-12 season and dropped to dead last, last season. They shot 32.7% in 12-13 and 36.8% in 11-12, which would have been good enough for 8th in 12-13.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Keeping Lance might not fix the problem if the problems are with other players who he can't control (i.e. our starting pg not having true pg abilities at times), but taking him out of the lineup might hurt the problem even more if he is one of the better players at ball movement, which he has been this season.
    Facts don't back that that up.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Facts don't back that that up.
    3-0 start with Lance averaging the second most assists of any starting player, as well as the fewest turnovers. So far, he has had way more involvement with the ball than he did a year ago. What facts am I missing?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I'm going to have to pick your nit here Nuntius. TOV/g or even TOV/36 aren't particularly good measures. What you really want is the TOV% (see the advanced section in bbref). This scales turnovers by usage.
    I agree that TOV% is a better measure than TOV per Game. However, a team stat that corresponds to TOV% does not exist at the moment. TOV per Possession is probably the closest one but it still does not correspond with it exactly. On the other hand, personal and team TOV per game correspond with each other. That's why I chose those stats. I wanted to illustrate how big a part of our team's turnover pie falls to our bigs.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    That's what I said in the other thread. So clearly you are very smart man!
    Holy $hI+ batman I found what you were referring to in the 600 page thread about Lance. Seems you have been putting up a very valiant effort that maybe the new Sheriff in town deserves the spot unless someone thinks Paul should vacate it for Danny's sake.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    3-0 start with Lance averaging the second most assists of any starting player, as well as the fewest turnovers. So far, he has had way more involvement with the ball than he did a year ago. What facts am I missing?
    That turnovers don't get worse with Danny. Lance turned the ball over 1.7 times a game last year. Pretty good. Nothing against Lance. Last year Danny played, he turned the ball over 1.8 times a game. Pretty good. Nothing against Danny.

    But yet here we go, trying to argue that Danny makes the team worse somehow.

    EDIT: And I'll resay it, in case some one missed it the first time around. The Pacers averaged LESS turnovers a game with Danny as a starter, than they did Lance. So individually it's a wash, team wise it's a plus towards Danny, but yet let's continue to pretend that Lance helps the problem and Danny makes it worse.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-05-2013 at 01:06 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If Lance continues playing that well and Vogel keeps giving him plenty of minutes with the bench then I'm absolutely fine with that. I have said multiple times that I'm glad with how things are working out at the moment and I'd be very glad if things continued to work out that way throughout the season and the playoffs.



    It's true that Vogel learned his lesson after the 2012 playoffs. At the moment he tends to have 2 starters on the court at all times. If PG or Lance are out there when Granger is playing with the bench then I have no problem with it.



    Every minute of a playoff game is crucial. We cannot afford to have letdowns and droughs.
    This may change (either way, actually), but Vogel is actually going with a lineup of 4 bench players + Lance for about 5-6 minutes a game. At the end of the 1st through the first few minutes of the 2nd quarter is their major part. But as long as we're not behind he gives the bench unit burn in the beginning of the 4th quarter too. Maybe part of it's because Hibbert's had some foul problems, but I have a feeling he's trying to keep guys from creeping up very far from 30-32 minutes if they don't have to.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I can't read the article but what is this saying: That between two specific players that are prototypical SF's it doesn't matter which one plays SG? Or is it saying that between any players the SG and SF is always interchangeable?
    It says that in our team there is no difference between SG and SF.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    This may change (either way, actually), but Vogel is actually going with a lineup of 4 bench players + Lance for about 5-6 minutes a game. At the end of the 1st through the first few minutes of the 2nd quarter is their major part. But as long as we're not behind he gives the bench unit burn in the beginning of the 4th quarter too. Maybe part of it's because Hibbert's had some foul problems, but I have a feeling he's trying to keep guys from creeping up very far from 30-32 minutes if they don't have to.
    And I certainly hope that he keeps doing it. Lance has been awesome with the CJ, OJ, Scola, Ian unit.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But yet here we go, trying to argue that Danny makes the team worse somehow.

    For someone who complained yesterday about people twisting around arguments, that's exactly what you're doing here. I didn't even mention the name Danny in my posts and was focusing completely on Lance and his improvement.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    For someone who complained yesterday about people twisting around arguments, that's exactly what you're doing here. I didn't even mention the name Danny in my posts and was focusing completely on Lance and his improvement.
    Notice I didn't say you were. You jumped into a discussion already happening. I'm going back to BnG's arugment, which is the basis of all of this.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    most teams would pray to have an all-star as Granger back s soon as possible, we have fans that don't want him to get better/good again

    the world is turning of it's hinges, I stopped caring
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And to go back to Nunt's point about shooting. The Pacers were 6th in 3pt shooting during the 11-12 season and dropped to dead last, last season. They shot 32.7% in 12-13 and 36.8% in 11-12, which would have been good enough for 8th in 12-13.
    Your numbers seem weird. Are you including both RS and playoff numbers in your percentages?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Your numbers seem weird. Are you including both RS and playoff numbers in your percentages?
    No, just regular season.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, just regular season.
    Then you made a mistake in your previous post. We shot 34.3% in 12-13. We weren't dead last. Minnesota was dead last at 30.5% (talk about bad shooting).
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    EDIT: And I'll resay it, in case some one missed it the first time around. The Pacers averaged LESS turnovers a game with Danny as a starter, than they did Lance. So individually it's a wash, team wise it's a plus towards Danny, but yet let's continue to pretend that Lance helps the problem and Danny makes it worse.
    The main reason they increased for the team from 11-12 to 12-13 is because of Paul George. He averaged 1.8 turnovers in 11-12 compared to 2.9 last year. His turnover leap basically accounts for the entire difference. I'm as big of a Paul George fan as anyone, but his increased relevance in the offense last year did come with some turnovers.

    11-12 turnovers: 14.01 per game
    11-13 turnovers: 15.14

    PG's increased turnover rate is the difference. It has nothing to do with being a "plus towards Danny".

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That turnovers don't get worse with Danny. Lance turned the ball over 1.7 times a game last year. Pretty good. Nothing against Lance. Last year Danny played, he turned the ball over 1.8 times a game. Pretty good. Nothing against Danny.

    But yet here we go, trying to argue that Danny makes the team worse somehow.

    EDIT: And I'll resay it, in case some one missed it the first time around. The Pacers averaged LESS turnovers a game with Danny as a starter, than they did Lance. So individually it's a wash, team wise it's a plus towards Danny, but yet let's continue to pretend that Lance helps the problem and Danny makes it worse.
    I think there are 3 things at work here.

    Vogel originally designed to offense with Granger in mind as the major perimeter scoring threat. Granger doesn't turn the ball over much because he plays within himself with his handles. Also, the team knew that when Danny got the ball in his favorite spots or as an open shooter they knew the most likely result of the play was a result of the play. Despite looking ugly all year, our offense was actually very efficient because we offensively rebounded very well, had low turnovers, and got to the foul line a lot.

    When Granger went out, we added more motion to the offense. We were now relying on less established and thus less predictable offensive decisions from Paul George. We still rebounded well and go to the foul line frequently, but we turned it over a lot. They also started running more duck-ins, and our bigs haven't quite yet perfected how to seal off their man from the ball when they're that close to the hoop.

    That's continuing this year. However, now that Paul George is improving and the team is gettng time to adapt to how he will score the ball, I think our turnover rate will go down. When we don't turn it over, our offense is better than it was two years ago. The potential for our offense now is much better. But I don't think putting Granger back into the lineup is going to cut down on our turnovers.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Then you made a mistake in your previous post. We shot 34.3% in 12-13. We weren't dead last. Minnesota was dead last at 30.5% (talk about bad shooting).
    I went to the wrong set of stats. I went to the opponent stats, so that was the Pacers defensive numbers. Good catch.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    PG's increased turnover rate is the difference. It has nothing to do with being a "plus towards Danny".
    Exactly. I'm pushing back at the tactic of trying to devalue Danny to increase Lance's value, which is a theme that has turned from amusing to down right frustrating going back the last 2 months of this argument. Trying to use turnovers as an argument for Lance and against Danny, falls flat on it's face.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The main reason they increased for the team from 11-12 to 12-13 is because of Paul George. He averaged 1.8 turnovers in 11-12 compared to 2.9 last year. His turnover leap basically accounts for the entire difference. I'm as big of a Paul George fan as anyone, but his increased relevance in the offense last year did come with some turnovers.

    11-12 turnovers: 14.01 per game
    11-13 turnovers: 15.14

    PG's increased turnover rate is the difference. It has nothing to do with being a "plus towards Danny".
    Turnovers leaguewide were up in 2011-12. In that season we had the 8th lowest TO/game. Last year we were ranked 22nd.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I went to the wrong set of stats. I went to the opponent stats, so that was the Pacers defensive numbers. Good catch.
    Ah, that explains it. As bad as we shot we still made our opponents shoot worse than us so that's a good thing
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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