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Thread: Granger out for three weeks

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Sorry, but that's not an example of sitting someone to match up with the opponent, seeing as how CJ stayed in the game, just guarded a different player.

    It's a direct example of him switching something around because of a superstar player. Of course CJ stayed in the game - we were thin the other night with Hill out. Why would he only limit playing match-ups to guys who are in the lineup? So he wouldn't consider a match-up when deciding to start Granger or Lance, both of whom are proven players if healthy? This is one of the best coaches in the NBA that we're talking about. And we're also talking about Dwyane Wade, a guy who has been one the best players in the NBA for a decade. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. If you think that one player is going to be better at guarding him than another, and that their won't be much drop off elsewhere, then you without question start that player.

    Of course he didn't sit anyone last year against the Heat. We only had five good players and they were all starters. But if this team is completely healthy, then it is exponentially deeper and there will be scenarios in which Vogel will have to play a match-up. That's not saying that we're going to change our identity. We all know that Hibbert-West-PG-Hill are going to be out there when it matters most. But does Vogel have the opportunity to play match-ups outside of that? Absolutely.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It's a direct example of him switching something around because of a superstar player.
    The notion isn't switching things aroung, but rather switching LINEUPS around. A Watson/Lance/PG/West/Hibbert is still the same lineup, regardless of who they guard.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The one obvious example your're missing is when Frank took out Hibbert during game 1 and LeBron got the layup at the end. But that only strengthens MY argument, because Frank came back and said he wouldn't do it again, that he needs to have his best on the floor.
    Which was an obvious mistake because taking Hibbert out completely changed the dynamic of the team. Hibbert offers something that no one else on the roster even comes remotely close to possessing. If you sit Hibbert, West, or Paul George because of match-ups, then that's altering the team. If you sit Lance or Granger, then it really isn't, and I'm someone who has always advocated for Lance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If Vogel thinks Granger is the better option with the starters, which he obviously does/did considering his reported statements and the fact that Lance was set to come off the bench, I think it's a safe assumption to make that Frank views that as his best.

    Which was all before Lance exploded to play the best basketball of his career while Danny continues to sit in a suit.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The notion isn't switching things aroung, but rather switching LINEUPS around. A Watson/Lance/PG/West/Hibbert is still the same lineup, regardless of who they guard.

    Well we've been using this same lineup with Lance for a year, so I just fail to see how using it at any time would throw a wrench into anything, even if Granger comes back to play solid ball.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Which was all before Lance exploded to play the best basketball of his career while Danny continues to sit in a suit.
    I remember that being said during the summer, when this conversation kicked off. So if Lance was playing his best basketball during the playoffs, and Vogel was still going to start Danny, why would we think Lance's best basketball two weeks into the season is suddenly going to change it?

    This is the problem, which I've said a couple of times. The decision between Lance and Danny is like being asked if you want NY strip or T-bone. You'd be happy with either. Yet some look at it like it's NY strip or Kibbles N Bits. I originally made that comparison to my GF, and used NY strip or filet mignon and she was more worried about who I thought was the filet mignon. My first thought was "Have you been secretly posting on PD?" I'm happy with Lance starting. I'd be happy with Danny starting.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I remember that being said during the summer, when this conversation kicked off. So if Lance was playing his best basketball during the playoffs, and Vogel was still going to start Danny, why would we think Lance's best basketball two weeks into the season is suddenly going to change it?
    That's a good point, but this level Lance is at now is way above where he was last season. The better he plays, the harder he makes it on Vogel to take him out of the lineup, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This is the problem, which I've said a couple of times. The decision between Lance and Danny is like being asked if you want NY strip or T-bone. You'd be happy with either. Yet some look at it like it's NY strip or Kibbles N Bits. I originally made that comparison to my GF, and used NY strip or filet mignon and she was more worried about who I thought was the filet mignon. My first thought was "Have you been secretly posting on PD?" I'm happy with Lance starting. I'd be happy with Danny starting.

    True, and that's probably why everyone should take a step back and chill while enjoying the fact that no matter what, this team is going to be pushing for 60 or so wins and an NBA Finals. But the fact that they are both good if healthy is exactly why I think Vogel could potentially switch things around at times because of match-ups. All I'm saying is that if this team is 100% healthy, he's going to have options available this postseason that he didn't have last year when we basically only had 5 good players.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    And those options shouldn't be dependent on what the other team is doing. Figure out your best lineup, and run with it. Make them adjust to you.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And those options shouldn't be dependent on what the other team is doing. Figure out your best lineup, and run with it. Make them adjust to you.

    If you think that one player is better suited to guard D-Wade, then you absolutely throw him out there. I think it would be borderline coaching malpractice not to (sarcasm). Wade hasn't done much adjusting to others in the course of his career. Agree to disagree I guess.

    Now you certainly make Miami adjust to our physical D that centers around Hibbert and PG, no doubt about that. Pulling Hibbert last year was a terrible mistake because it changed the entire identity of our team in the most crucial play of the season. But should you make adjustments to them in areas where they have an advantage (HOF top 10 player in the league)? Absolutely. This is the same sort of philosophy Vogel used when he put PG on Rose. If he's going to make an adjustment within a lineup based on a superstar opponent, then I don't think it's that big of a leap to think that he might make a lineup adjustment in certain situations.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-08-2013 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    I think Danny would guard LeBron so... PG did the best job he could do, but LeBron still averaged 29pts on 51% shooting, which was the most points he scored in a playoff series last year, and it was his second highest fg% only behind his 62.7fg% exhibition against the Bucks.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If you think that one player is better suited to guard D-Wade, then you absolutely throw him out there. I think it would be borderline coaching malpractice not to (sarcasm). Wade hasn't done much adjusting to others in the course of his career. Agree to disagree I guess.

    Now you certainly make Miami adjust to our physical D that centers around Hibbert and PG, no doubt about that. Pulling Hibbert last year was a terrible mistake because it changed the entire identity of our team in the most crucial play of the season. But should you make adjustments to them in areas where they have an advantage (HOF top 10 player in the league)? Absolutely. This is the same sort of philosophy Vogel used when he put PG on Rose. If he's going to make an adjustment within a lineup based on a superstar opponent, then I don't think it's that big of a leap to think that he might make a lineup adjustment in certain situations.
    You're not wrong, you're not absolutely correct either. If offensively Lance and Danny had the same skillset, but defensively Lance could guard Wade better it's obvious that you play Lance more when he's out there. But if you like the skillset that Granger brings to the starting unit, then you roll with the mismatch until they prove they can abuse it. With Granger and George out there we can post up whichever player is on Wade. Wade is one of the few guards that Lance can't overpower. Vogel likes wing postups because you can have 2 bigs vying for the offensive rebound in addition to another close player.
    My prediction: Solomon Hill is going to lead the team in Surprisingly Good Plays for the year. -10/29/2014

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think Danny would guard LeBron so... PG did the best job he could do, but LeBron still averaged 29pts on 51% shooting, which was the most points he scored in a playoff series last year, and it was his second highest fg% only behind his 62.7fg% exhibition against the Bucks.

    If that proved to be best for our team, then I'd certainly support it.

    The bottom line is that this is a ridiculously stacked team that has a lot of options if everyone is 100% healthy. I'm beginning to think that no one can beat us except Miami, and I like our chances against them more with each passing day.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Never adjusting is as bad as always adjusting.

    Where I would come down is that the weaker team needs to adjust to the stronger, and a coach has to make that decision. In previous years there were times we were the weaker team and were going to need to adjust. Today, I think we're the stronger team and others need to adjust to us.

    But, if the other team makes an adjustment that knocks us down, we can't refuse to adjust in order to get that advantage back.

    And that includes everything from changing how the guys on the floor are playing to who they are guarding to swapping lineups.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Playing to match-ups is just the smart thing to do. You don't play Copeland 30 minutes because it is a favorable match-up, but if Copeland is great enough of a favorable match-up you put him in for 10 minutes to take advantage of the match-up.

    In Danny/Paul/Lance vs Lebron/Wade I think the mismatch is actually in our favor. We are one of the few teams who has the wing talent to effectively compete with Lebron/Wade. Which in my opinion is a huge reason why we have had as much success against them as we have. If we had Hibbert, Paul, and JR Smith instead of Granger or Lance I don't think we make it past 5 in either series. Granger and Lance are able to be more than just road bumps on the way to the basket, and are also able to challenge Wade/Lebron on the offensive end.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I originally made that comparison to my GF, and used NY strip or filet mignon and she was more worried about who I thought was the filet mignon. My first thought was "Have you been secretly posting on PD?"
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think Danny would guard LeBron so... PG did the best job he could do, but LeBron still averaged 29pts on 51% shooting, which was the most points he scored in a playoff series last year, and it was his second highest fg% only behind his 62.7fg% exhibition against the Bucks.
    That happened because we were the only team that didn't constantly double team him.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think Danny would guard LeBron so... PG did the best job he could do, but LeBron still averaged 29pts on 51% shooting, which was the most points he scored in a playoff series last year, and it was his second highest fg% only behind his 62.7fg% exhibition against the Bucks.
    Paul was a boy guarding a man. Sure, LeBron will still win that battle but it's not getting any easier for him. Every month that passes Paul closes that gap. As for Danny guarding LeBron James...let's first see if he ever gets back on the floor. Then if he does, let's see if he can get 80%. At 80%, Danny Granger shouldn't be guarding LeBron. Once Danny gets to 90-100%, then we can talk. Still, Paul/Lance is a better combination against Miami.

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    Default Re: Granger out for three weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Paul was a boy guarding a man. Sure, LeBron will still win that battle but it's not getting any easier for him. Every month that passes Paul closes that gap. As for Danny guarding LeBron James...let's first see if he ever gets back on the floor. Then if he does, let's see if he can get 80%. At 80%, Danny Granger shouldn't be guarding LeBron. Once Danny gets to 90-100%, then we can talk. Still, Paul/Lance is a better combination against Miami.
    And our best combination against Miami is George/Stephenson/Granger.

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