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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

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    Default Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    While we have good jolly old Santa Clause that delivers presents and good cheer to all good Pacer girls and boys the rest of the league gets to suffer a visit from Krampus the beast like creature that punishes non Pacer fans.

    The parts of Santa and Krampus are both played by the same person, Lance Stephenson.

    While he is delivering picture perfect dimes and triple doubles for the faithful of the blue and gold he is delivering devastation and misery to the followers of other franchises and he does so while gyrating an extra hip thrust towards old Ebenezer Buck.

    Sure on occasion he sometimes delivers coal in the wrong stocking and the Pacer faithful will need a cleaning but far more often than not he is the source of joy and pride for our club.

    I donít know that you can ask for better games from Lance than what you have gotten the past three games.

    Defense? Check.

    Passing? Check

    Rebounding? Check

    Shooting? Check

    Excitement? Check

    Causing Frank Vogel to age? Check

    Causing constipation to Uncle Buck? Check

    In other words itís all good.

    Iíve said it in the past and Iíll say it again, he is the unstable molecule that mixes things up. Sometimes it blows up in your face but when controlled and used properly he is the nuclear bomb that we drop on opponents and there is almost no defense for him.

    Think of it like this. He is a more stable and talented and believe it or not more mentally composed version of Nate Robinson.

    Donít get me wrong their games are nothing alike at all but they both share that trait of huge giant enormous talent that can take over a game but can also take you out of a game. However Lance has shown that he can control it and dial it back when need be and well Nate is now on his 5th team in 5 years after spending 5 years with his 6th team the Knicks.

    Now while this is superb for this season and as long as he plays like this our team is beyond good, in the long run this is going to hurt because he is going to get paid by someone next season. I hope itís us but right now is not the time for us as fans to worry about that. We have to hope that Bird & Co are already working on a way to keep him, which I have faith in them, but at the end of the day our only real concern right now is that title hunt. Which with Lance playing like this along with our other players that is truly what we are on, a title hunt.

    With that in mind and with the Christmas season upon us I want to once again reflect on where we are as a team and how much of a miracle this is.

    To the fans of central Indiana, thank you. You have proven this season what many of us were saying all along. Build a winner that plays a style of basketball that we can all understand and appreciate and you will come.

    We have 8 sell outs already compared to 9 sell outs all last season, I think our lowest attended game this year was still over 16K (not sure on that though) and we have only really had a couple of marquee name teams visit this year (Miami & Chicago) and a couple of teams that have followings due to size of market (Houston & Boston) neither of these two though brought in large crowds. Chicago brought their usual crowd and Miami brought a few but not many.

    What Iím trying to say is that people are attending Pacers games to see the Indiana Pacers because we are the Marque team.

    So pardon me for a minute while I offend a few of you.

    Up yours random out of state and in a couple of cases out of country Pacers fans who berated the locals for not supporting the team. For telling us that even though we always had a large die hard base that the team should move. You werenít here, you didnít know the whole story, you donít have a clue as to how deep the love for this team does run and what it took to bring them back.

    Am I disgusted about band wagon fans? Yes, frankly they do grind my gears (stealing from family guy) but I also know they are a necessary evil. Our fan base did nothing worse than what Philly fans are doing now and you donít see throngs of people rushing to condemn them and call for the team to move.

    Sorry, I just had to get that off of my chest because it has been bugging me as a local resident who actually does support the team. I know that there are a lot of fans out there and yes I wish they would come when we are down more as well but thatís life.

    Second I just donít feel that I have been grateful enough lately for Frank Vogel. Could we please drop the entire faÁade that Brian Shaw was the real coach and Frank was just some Tony Robbins motivational speaker?

    Shaw is gone now and our team is better than ever. That is not a slap at Shaw at all, he is doing a bang up job in Denver and oh btw he is using something called ďsmashmouth basketballĒ Iím not sure where Iíve heard that phrase before but for some reason it sounds familiar to me.

    Frank Vogel is coach of the year, period. He should have been coach of the year last year but to have this team working together in unison and everybody buying into the system and everybody still on the same page and NOBODY tuning out the coach and to be winning as often as we are winning and well just because he is the best damned overall coach we have had in the NBA (yea Iím going to go ahead with that analogy so remind me in the future if I donít say it again).

    I am also eternally grateful that small ball is dead on our club for the foreseeable future and I hope beyond all hope that the NBA is once again changing back to the day when teams did not try and outshoot each other with no low post offense. I know we still have a lot of mid sized teams but I think Roy and West combo has had such an impact on the league over the past few years that teams are now trying to match up to us.

    I am grateful for the great wall of Hibbert and his mastery of verticality.

    I am grateful for Paul George, the most talented Pacer in NBA history. I truly believe that he will eventually become the greatest Pacer ever.

    I can not tell you how grateful I am for Luis Scola & C.J. Watson. I am not trying to put anyone else down here but I truly believe they are the single difference right now why we are not just one of the better teams in the East but are the single best team in the East right now. They keep getting better and better and to not lose all semblance of offense when our bench comes in sometimes confuses me because itís been so many years. In fact there have been times Iíve been upset with Frank for taking them out of games, can you imagine ever being upset because he took out Tyler or D.J.?

    I am grateful that the past 3 games Ian Mahinmi has seemed to be born again by playing solid defense, rebounding and actually catching the basketball, heís even dropped in a few points along the way. I still wouldnít mind another big to have in reserve but Iím also one of those guys who would say ďwhy rock the boatĒ right now.

    I am grateful for David West being David West. Single best power forward in Pacer NBA history, yes I said it, and best free agent signing ever.

    I am grateful for George Hill when he is aggressive. I always appreciate his effort but we are just a much better team when George isnít passive and makes his defender actually spend energy guarding him.

    I appreciate Solomon Hill, Orlando Johnson, Rasual Butler, Donald Sloan & Chris Copeland for being good team mates. A chain is only as strong as itís weakest link and the main strength of our franchise is chemistry. Any one player, even a bench player, becomes disgruntled with their role and it can disrupt the chain, these guys have proven to be good people and when called upon even good players to a point.

    Now Iíve saved Granger for last.

    Sadly due to circumstances beyond my control the past two games prior to tonight I could not do one of these, of course the one night I can is the one night that Danny would have been better off not playing. But he played a really solid game last night vs. Boston including some decent defense.

    He was gassed tonight, which is to be expected and all of his shots were short which tends to be the legs not having enough energy in them.

    I am not going to judge Danny on how well he plays consistently for about a month, unless he is a detriment or becomes a savior type player, because itís going to take at least that long to get into game shape.

    I am just more interested in him not going back to the IRL for any reason involving his knee or his calf. I got burned last year by him coming back and even in the last home game I got to see him play in last year vs. L.A. he looked great, then all of a sudden boom, done for the season.

    I just donít want to get my hopes up to high. However I will say if we can get him to actually hit a shot that is not a three ever again I can see him and Scola and Watson being the best bench in the NBA by far.

    Now being a Granger fan I am grateful for his return. His welcome back the other night was magical, not Reggie retiring magical, but I would say it was the most connected Iíve seen the crowd with a player since Reggie retired.

    Also Kudos to Paul George & Lance Stephenson for standing up and getting the crowd to give Danny a standing ovation as he came out of the game.

    Iíll be honest Iíve never really known how the locals felt about Danny because well when he was at his best our team was at itís worst and we all know that most of the locals took a Holiday for reasons of their own.

    When he came back the state of Danny Granger status in Pacers fans mind was answered loud and clear. Look all props to the G2 Zone & Area 55 they did get the Danny chant going but the regular fans saw him rise up off of that bench for the first time and they rose with him. I watched it later on ESPN and Iím telling you, you didnít get 1/3 of the sound that we got in the fieldhouse. It made me happy as a Pacers fan and happy as a Danny fan.

    Also one more piece of Christmas coal. Up yours everyone who wants/needs/must make this a Danny vs. Paul vs. Lance thing.

    Itís disgusting, Iím not even slightly joking. The only people more happy that night for Danny than Danny was probably Paul & Lance. Well honestly the only person probably even more than them was Bird. I watched Birds face on camera when he came in and he was actually smiling.

    Danny no matter what we think of him is obviously beloved on that bench. For a guy who basically did nothing on the floor he received a heroís welcome when he left and you canít fake the sentiment that they were showing.

    Look as a Danny fan let me just say this. This is now Paul & Lanceís team, they are the horses and we will only go as far as they can take us. Dannyís dayís are coming to an end with the team most likely but in the time he has left he can be an asset if he is truly healed. He obviously likes both of these young men and I believe with all of my heart he will try to adjust to fit in with the club. Yes he had a bad night tonight but he had 2 pretty decent games prior to that. He can be a good sub.

    So for the love of all that his holy can we put a stop to this endless idiotic bickering. If youíre a Danny fan like me, get over it. Our guy is at the end of his prime and even he himself has said his is just a role player, albeit a great one (at least in my mind). Stop talking about him starting over either of the above. For Godís sake Paul might be the MVP of the league and right now Lance is playing like an all star. Letís just let Danny fit in and help win a title that he so richly deserves. Do you think that David Robinson is thought of as a clinger on for the title he got with Duncan?

    If youíre a Paul or Lance fan for the love of God let it go. We know your guy is the future and the present. Danny no matter what you want to say about him was at one point in time a very good basketball player. No he was never playing at the level Paul George is right now, no Pacer ever has in the NBA. But just because he wasnít an MVP level player doesnít mean he was a scrub either. No just because Jim OíBrien was here was he able to score and be a good player. If that were the case then Mike Dunleavy would have been able to translate his success here under Jim for the rest of his career but he couldnít. Danny was able to be a very good player that last year when OíBrien was fired when Frank took over and he was still a very important part of our club up until he got injured.

    If nothing else look at it from the standpoint of that Danny is better than having Orlando or Solomon coming off of the bench and yes even though Rasual did a great job in his short time Danny when healthy will be better.

    Okay enough talk about that, I am just thrilled to have him back and I donít want this to end on me bickering with people. Itís now Christmas eve and time for all good Pacers fans to rejoice.

    This has been by and far the best Pacers season Iíve had since the 90ís and I have a sneaky feeling this will be my best Pacers season ever.

    The only grades we are going to do tonight are as follows.



    Merry Christmas Everybody



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    So pardon me for a minute while I offend a few of you.

    Up yours random out of state and in a couple of cases out of country Pacers fans who berated the locals for not supporting the team. For telling us that even though we always had a large die hard base that the team should move. You werenít here, you didnít know the whole story, you donít have a clue as to how deep the love for this team does run and what it took to bring them back.
    As an out of country Pacers fan that has berated the locals in the past for not support the team I'll say this: I gladly accept what you say

    I never wanted the team to move but I did want the team to sell out home games and have a Pacers majority crowd in every single game. I got disgusted when the crowd cheered for the away team in some occassions last year (like that Lakers game) and that's why I berated the locals that did not support the team at the time (I was never referring to the faithful die hards like most PDers, of course). Well, this ain't happening anymore.

    When the Bulls came to town and brought over their fans, BLF was rocking for the Pacers. When we were playing bad against the Pistons, the crowd was rocking for the Pacers. The fans are doing this part this season and they're helping the team a lot. It's always a Pacers majority crowd and we sell out most games. Thank you for that, Indiana residents!
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Bravo!
    Beautiful man, really.

    There's hardly more I can say.
    The comment on Hill making his guy expend energy reminded me of the poor bass turds Reggie used to run head long into DD.

    I'd sure like to see Westbrook or Curry chase Hill about eight times around the court as fast as possible then bounce off of DWest!
    That would assuredly take a little zip out of their offence.

    I love DWest! he certainly belongs in the mix as our best 4 ever.
    DD was awesome. But he didn't have a spoonful of the finesse David has on offense.
    McGennis was great. Dynamic and like a freight train movin to the hoop. But I wouldn't call him over all committed and focused on team work.
    JO was an MVP candidate playing the spot for us. His length would give West trouble on both ends of the court. He could score and defend and was fairly passionate most of the time. DWest makes those around him better. It would have been nice to see those guys in their primes butt heads.

    If I could pick any Pacer to start a team with at the power forward spot I would also have to take a close look at one of our "Hall of Famer's" Mel Danials!
    I was pretty little when I watched him play. I mostly followed the ball. "Billy Keller for THREE...GOT IT!!"
    I do think he owned the paint. He and Roy together would seem to kill any thoughts of inside play. I think he shot well with both hands. Little hooks and short jump shots. Don't know if a natural center would be a good choice, but it's worth considering.

    Anyway how cool is it to have one of our best ever at almost every position right now!

    Totally agree about our bench now too. If Danny can finish the season there will just be NO rest for Pacer opponents!
    Our 2nd unit can compete with anybody's and when their shot's are falling will EXTEND leads and demoralize the competition.

    Again, I loved your article.
    Well done sir!
    Last edited by solid; 12-24-2013 at 04:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Such a great piece of writing. Thanks

    I haven' t watched the game yet. Im about to in a couple of hours. But couldn't resist to read the odd thoughts first today. I guess im up to something beautiful again (besides Grangers performence but hey cant have it all everytime.

    Oh yeah, i made a couple of new basketball fans in the Netherlands already. Pacer fans to be precise.. And it didnt took me a lot of energy to do so. Pacers are doing all the work right now. Being a fan since the Rik Smits era, this team is by far the most amazing team i ever watched. Also compared to other sports. I just love this team. Truly love them! Their cohesiveness its really some kind of amazing art..
    Proud owner of 'Dutch Pacers'

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    I'm going to stop at the commentary regarding the fans. I don't judge people -- even so-called bandwagoners -- for finally accepting this current incarnation of the Pacers. We as PD fans are not the norm; and to a lot of the state/country/world, this team was hard to root for in years past. And it still may be. I mean, it's been brutal. I'm just happy it seems to be heading in a positive direction. I don't ask questions.

    Secondly, I don't really get the "Brian Shaw was the brains behind the operation" gig. To me that's not really a valid criticism of the fandom. He wasn't here in 2011 when Frank got the job and instilled confidence in a broken team. I don't really get any "facade" regarding Shaw. This team is of course better this year because it has better available talent. It has the luxury of reasonable contracts and youth, plus one wildcard asset (Granger) returning healthy. It's an elite team no matter how one puts it. Frank was here when things began to go positive again, and he's still here now. No real chip on the shoulder. He is a constant thus far.

    Lastly, I do agree: shame on people for doubting Danny/the team's chemistry. Danny is a huge factor in any possible playoff series thanks to his experience, shooting, and defense. It's only a matter of whether he is healthy or not -- and that may be a reasonable "if." But, the closeness of this team is not to be contested; the young guns have come through #33 and know it.
    Last edited by kidthecat; 12-24-2013 at 06:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Thanks Peck, great job as usual. I too hope the give and take, even if it is in jest, between our fellow fans over the names on the backs of jerseys is put to rest. As you state, this is the best Pacers team with the best Pacers player ever. We should be reveling in this moment, not finding reasons to complain.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    We have 8 sell outs already compared to 9 sell outs all last season, I think our lowest attended game this year was still over 16K (not sure on that though) and we have only really had a couple of marquee name teams visit this year (Miami & Chicago) and a couple of teams that have followings due to size of market (Houston & Boston) neither of these two though brought in large crowds. Chicago brought their usual crowd and Miami brought a few but not many.
    There were a couple of 13k nights VERY early on per Basketball Reference, and to be honest, I still don't think Chicago brought their usual crowd (in numbers, not douchiness).
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Frank Vogel is coach of the year, period. He should have been coach of the year last year but to have this team working together in unison and everybody buying into the system and everybody still on the same page and NOBODY tuning out the coach and to be winning as often as we are winning and well just because he is the best damned overall coach we have had in the NBA (yea I’m going to go ahead with that analogy so remind me in the future if I don’t say it again).
    Is there some particular blessing in Frank's dandruff?

    This is a bit out of place, but it does contain Paul George's holiday greeting. 'Tis the season.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    It's worth noting that not only do these guys play well together, they genuinely LIKE to play together.

    How many other benches have you ever seen do the Wave when one of their teammates drops a triple-dub? Hell, how many benches have you even seen do the Wave period?
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    To get everyone in the Christmas spirit, I'll copy a humorous passage from Reggie Miller's 1994-95 I Love Being The Enemy book:


    Larry (Brown) gave us Christmas Eve day off, but we asked if we could practice anyway. After last night's game, we needed it.

    It turned out we couldn't even do that right. Guys showed up late, and guys came in hurt. Larry called us together and said, "You motherf'ers called this practice, and now everyone's limping in hurt, coming in late. You figure out what you want to do on your own."

    He wasn't exactly in the Christmas spirit.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    West is better than JO? let me put it this way if we had JO in his prime instead of West we would be looking at a dynasty, JO and Roy together would have been the equivalent to Robinson/Duncan.

    Now that is not to say that West is not doing a good job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West is better than JO? let me put it this way if we had JO in his prime instead of West we would be looking at a dynasty, JO and Roy together would have been the equivalent to Robinson/Duncan.

    Now that is not to say that West is not doing a good job.
    If you really think that JO would take being the 3rd option (sometimes 4th) on offense then there is no need to discuss this. The skill, yes JO is better. The player, leader, and toughness? No not in a million years.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Well I was talking about the player I didn't know we were talking about heart of the team soul and things like that.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West is better than JO? let me put it this way if we had JO in his prime instead of West we would be looking at a dynasty, JO and Roy together would have been the equivalent to Robinson/Duncan.

    Now that is not to say that West is not doing a good job.
    Major Cold has already said it better than I could but I want to reiterate that the single most important aspect of this team is chemistry and Jermaine was many things but solid team first kind of guy was not one of them.

    In his prime he had to be the offense, period. He would never settle to have Paul George be the man, he paid proper lip service respect to Reggie but let's be honest Reggie was well past his prime there so he was never really a threat to JO's work through him offense.

    Talent wise to me anyway the only thing I think O'Neal was significantly better at was shot blocking and yes he was worlds away better than West at that. Everything else is either equal or West might be slightly better than.

    But when you factor in leadership and team chemistry it's not even close.

    P.S. Yes I know you don't believe chemistry is a big deal, we'll just agree to disagree over that.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Major Cold has already said it better than I could but I want to reiterate that the single most important aspect of this team is chemistry and Jermaine was many things but solid team first kind of guy was not one of them.

    In his prime he had to be the offense, period. He would never settle to have Paul George be the man, he paid proper lip service respect to Reggie but let's be honest Reggie was well past his prime there so he was never really a threat to JO's work through him offense.

    Talent wise to me anyway the only thing I think O'Neal was significantly better at was shot blocking and yes he was worlds away better than West at that. Everything else is either equal or West might be slightly better than.

    But when you factor in leadership and team chemistry it's not even close.

    P.S. Yes I know you don't believe chemistry is a big deal, we'll just agree to disagree over that.
    I remember in a regular season loss in Boston JO came to Rick and moaned that he wasn't getting the touches.

    I prefer West's high post two dribble step back fade over JO's wide open lane-but lets-fade away anyway game. I also think that West has better hands, but JO might be a better rebounder. We may never know though. West really doesn't have to dominate that facet with Paul, Roy, Hill, and Lance.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West is better than JO? let me put it this way if we had JO in his prime instead of West we would be looking at a dynasty, JO and Roy together would have been the equivalent to Robinson/Duncan.

    Now that is not to say that West is not doing a good job.
    JO took a similarly talented team and ran it into the darkest abyss this franchise has ever seen...and left scars that will be there forever...and it took David West to do the healing of the wounds left by JO....

    JO cant and never could carry David Wests jock...theres so much more to being a ballplayer than being able to block shots and hit fadeaway jumpers...

    If JO was on this team he would do the exact same thing he did to the Title favorites he was on earlier this century-fail and run them into the ground...

    David West is a man...a man's man...JO was and always will be nothing but a wannabe
    Last edited by cinotimz; 12-24-2013 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Oh and West has ten times more passing skills than JO.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Oh and West has ten times more passing skills than JO.
    The first requirement in being a good passer is you have to want to pass...hence why JO was never gonna be a good passer...passing to JO was a last resort....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    West is much better for this team. Look at West's FG% since playing for the Pacers:

    11-12: 48.7% for 12.8 PPG
    12-13: 49.8% for 17.1 PPG (he truly was fantastic last year)
    13-14: 48.3% for 13.2 PPG


    He's not going to average 20 PPG like JO, but let's look at what it took for JO to get that 20 a game. In his 03-04 third place MVP season, he averaged 20.1 PPG on 43.4% shooting, which is a rather poor percentage for a post player. He needed 17.9 field goal attempts to get those 20 points. West OTOH only needed 13.8 attempts last year to get his 17.1 PPG. 04 JO basically needed four extra shots a game to score just three more points than 13 West.

    Yeah, JO used to put up some pretty solid numbers and he was certainly a talented player. But he needed a ton of attempts to get those 20 PPG because to put it bluntly, he missed a lot of shots. West fits in much better with this offense. He knows his role and hits his shots at a very high rate. And I agree with Peck, you simply cannot overstate the importance of the professional attitude that West brought to this team. That 2011 team that lost to the Bulls definitely needed a kick a** hard nosed vet to come in and show them the way. West and Hill were those players.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    JO took a similarly talented team and ran it into the darkest abyss this franchise has ever seen...and left scars that will be there forever...and it took David West to do the healing of the wounds left by JO....

    JO cant and never could carry David Wests jock...theres so much more to being a ballplayer than being able to block shots and hit fadeaway jumpers...

    If JO was on this team he would do the exact same thing he did to the Title favorites he was on earlier this century-fail and run them into the ground...

    David West is a man...a man's man...JO was and always will be nothing but a wannabe
    I agree that David West is better, Heck I am in the David West/Dale Davis line of thought. But Artest destroyed that team, yes JO was not perfect and he was the real reason not cost that Brad Miller was not re signed. But to blame him for the Brawl is absurd and thats what destroyed that team.

    That team was not as good as this team but it was damn close, they could have won the title that year I have no doubt.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    So we should also conclude that Troy Murphy is at least top 5 PF ever because his "team chemistry" was top 5? how about Mr "team defense" in Mike Dunleavy? he should be top 10 all time Pacer because there is nothing that says "team chemistry" more than "team defense"


    Oh I believe in "team chemistry" but I'm not rating players because of it, if I was I would think that Rashual Butler is better than Melo because of his "team chemistry".

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So we should also conclude that Troy Murphy is at least top 5 PF ever because his "team chemistry" was top 5? how about Mr "team defense" in Mike Dunleavy? he should be top 10 all time Pacer because there is nothing that says "team chemistry" more than "team defense"


    Oh I believe in "team chemistry" but I'm not rating players because of it, if I was I would think that Rashual Butler is better than Melo because of his "team chemistry".
    Thats not even close to what Peck is saying, He is saying its an important factor and it really is. I loved JO and I am in the let him finish his career here camp but he was part of the chemistry problem in the past. Of course he was playing with guys who had serious personality issues, they had talent but my favorite player to watch of that era was clearly a problem himself (Tinsley)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    I agree that David West is better, Heck I am in the David West/Dale Davis line of thought. But Artest destroyed that team, yes JO was not perfect and he was the real reason not cost that Brad Miller was not re signed. But to blame him for the Brawl is absurd and thats what destroyed that team.

    That team was not as good as this team but it was damn close, they could have won the title that year I have no doubt.
    I like David West and Dale Davis as well as anyone, but neither was as good as Jermaine O'Neal. I say that not even liking JO.

    Had Jermaine O'Neal not gotten injured, he would be the best Pacer ever. He really had Duncan/Garnett level talent and length. David West himself would probably admit that Jermaine was the better player by some distance.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    It's just great to root for a talented team of players who like each other a lot, as opposed to a talented group of players who were ticking time bombs that hated one another. Some on here might think that Lance's antics are too much, but his teammates get a huge kick out of it and I think their opinion matters most.

    I just love this team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    I agree that David West is better, Heck I am in the David West/Dale Davis line of thought. But Artest destroyed that team, yes JO was not perfect and he was the real reason not cost that Brad Miller was not re signed. But to blame him for the Brawl is absurd and thats what destroyed that team.

    That team was not as good as this team but it was damn close, they could have won the title that year I have no doubt.
    thats your opinion and ur certainly entitled to it....but JO destroyed that team...not Ron...if David West were the PF on that team the outcome wouldve been worlds different...and there wouldve been no brawl etc...Lance has a lot of Artest in him...and we see the result of such when you have great leadership in the Lockerroom versus selfish primadonas....JO was concerned with himself first and foremost and everyone else and the team came second, if at all...u allude to the fact that JO was the real reason behind Brad Miller not being re-signed yet want to put your head in the sand where everything else is concerned? Donnie Walsh and Isiah Thomas were fools for catering to JO and enabling him...so they certainly share some of the responsibility...but make no mistake, thats what and who destroyed those teams and franchise, not Ron or the brawl....

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