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Thread: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't know if anyone saw Danny's quotes after practice yesterday, but basically he sounds pretty upbeat all things considered and I think it was maybe Cornrows who made the point that typically if Danny is down about the injury or wants to dodge it he gets his butt out of there before the media is in.

    Granger said he was really happy with how his knee has held up through training camp.

    The big thing about this is two fold, as someone who has had both knee injuries, calf injuries and ankle injuries from playing basketball I can tell you first hand that when they rehab you they treat the whole leg. That old song about the hip bone connected to the leg bone connected to the ankle bone, well it's a simple way to look at it but it's all very true in how they treat the leg. You have to treat the whole thing. Right now I am rehabbing from a grade 2 sprain I got a few weeks ago playing in a bball league and they treat my calf and my knee just as much as my ankle. I think this is probably a large part of the concern with Danny. I am sure they don't want him over compensating for the strain and end up aggravating his knee.

    The good news is this, if they were worried about the knee at all I think they would have shut Danny completely down, but he said himself he's been doing ball handling drills and shooting drills. I am sure ball handling drills require some level of cutting and explosion. The fact that he's not allowed to run with the calf makes sense to me because they don't want that level of exertion put on the calf right now.

    Basically, if I hear that Danny's blowing out of practice without talking to the media or something like that, I'll get concern, but until then this just seems like a case of better safe than sorry.
    I agree, and I'll add to this by pointing out that in between the initial calf injury (vs. Dallas) and the time he re-aggravated the calf (second half @ Chicago), while he was out there playing versus the Bulls he looked as healthy and as comfortable as I have seen him since before the knee injury. He looked to me like he was ready to be the starter that night, IMO.

    Add it all up, and I think this is just a small thing.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But what is Derrick Rose if he's not faster/more athletic than everyone but Lebron James? Probably not that great of a player..

    If that's the case, then he's going to be pretty useless once he hits age 30. I don't buy that he couldn't still be a good player if less than 100%, but it's his body and only he knows how he felt.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If that's the case, then he's going to be pretty useless once he hits age 30. I don't buy that he couldn't still be a good player if less than 100%, but it's his body and only he knows how he felt.
    He would still be a very good player. He just wouldn't be Derrick Rose if he wasn't 100%.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    He would still be a very good player. He just wouldn't be Derrick Rose if he wasn't 100%.
    But a player who isn't "Derrick Rose" could have still been very valuable to the Bulls last season.

    Like I said, only he knows his body. But I don't buy that he or any other player is worthless if they aren't 100%. An 85% Derrick Rose should still be better than the majority of players. If he isn't any good without physical explosiveness, then he won't be worth much once he hits age 30.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If that's the case, then he's going to be pretty useless once he hits age 30. I don't buy that he couldn't still be a good player if less than 100%, but it's his body and only he knows how he felt.
    Unless he improves his shot, I expect he won't be. He's not that great of a shooter, he's not that smart of a player. He is an efficient distributer, but he's a scoring point guard so... This is a guy whose entire game is centered around exploding to the basket. If he can't do that, I don't think he's one of the best players in the game. (now, he'd still be pretty good..but superstar level? Nope..)

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not enough basketballs on the floor for him to do it with the starters. GHill doesn't do much other than inititiate the play, so it's not really like you're swapping their roles. In order to put the ball in Lances hands, with the starters, it takes the ball out of PG's hands and DWest's hands, as they're the 1st and 2nd options. I like Lance, but I don't think he's good enough to pull the ball away from them.
    No, it would not be a role swap. It's not about putting the ball in Lance's hands. It's about Lance putting the ball in DWest and Hibbert's hands...in the right spot. Or dishing out to Paul George or George Hill.

    Our guards, except Lance, are very average seeing the floor and passing. Until this team gets better in that area...or Paul George becomes Kobe Bryant, it's not advancing out of the East.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    All of this is irrelevant now; just start Lance.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    No, it would not be a role swap. It's not about putting the ball in Lance's hands. It's about Lance putting the ball in DWest and Hibbert's hands...in the right spot. Or dishing out to Paul George or George Hill.

    Our guards, except Lance, are very average seeing the floor and passing. Until this team gets better in that area...or Paul George becomes Kobe Bryant, it's not advancing out of the East.
    It's amazing you think Lance will be able to facilitiate the ball, without actually having the ball in his hands. Get Lance a pair of glasses and a lightning bolt scar, and maybe he can become the NBA's version of Harry Potter. If he's facilitating to everyone else, he's going to have the ball in his hands, and have the PG role, which is Hill's. Sorry, but you can't describe him havign a different role, and then try to say he won't have a different role.
    Last edited by Since86; 10-28-2013 at 11:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    All of this is irrelevant now; just start Lance.
    It's irrelevant until Danny is playing.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's amazing you think Lance will be able to facilitiate the ball, without actually having the ball in his hands. Get Lance a pair of glasses and a lightning bolt scar, and maybe he can become the NBA's version of Harry Potter. If he's facilitating to everyone else, he's going to have the ball in his hands, and have the PG role, which is Hill's. Sorry, but you can't describe him havign a different role, and then try to say he won't have a different role.
    Yeah, I just don't see how the third-most-used ball-handler in a starting five dedicated to feeding two different players in the post is going to somehow be the kind of facilitator people are talking about with Lance. Granger's game is just a better fit, and I think to most people that would be obvious, but I guess not. You want that third guy ready to catch and shoot/score.

    I think it may just boil down to people letting the highlight plays burn into their memory while the rest (IE every other play, and the bad plays) fade away versus really looking at what these guys do individually, together, and specifically in this offense. There are people who know a lot more about all three of those concepts than I do, but I know enough to feel pretty confident I'm right about this.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I think it should be pretty obvious to all by now that Lance should start while Granger make's sure the rehab equipment is working.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Yeah, I just don't see how the third-most-used ball-handler in a starting five dedicated to feeding two different players in the post is going to somehow be the kind of facilitator people are talking about with Lance. Granger's game is just a better fit, and I think to most people that would be obvious, but I guess not. You want that third guy ready to catch and shoot/score.

    I think it may just boil down to people letting the highlight plays burn into their memory while the rest (IE every other play, and the bad plays) fade away versus really looking at what these guys do individually, together, and specifically in this offense. There are people who know a lot more about all three of those concepts than I do, but I know enough to feel pretty confident I'm right about this.
    I think the starting unit needs shooting, but if it had a guy more capable of breaking down a defense with a nice entry pass or drive and dish or perhaps a superior defender who allows Paul to play his natural position, I think those things are more important. The fact i doubt Granger fully recovers is a factor. The fact i think he's gone after this season is also a factor. The fact i expect Lance to improve a little more is yet another reason.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think the starting unit needs shooting, but if it had a guy more capable of breaking down a defense with a nice entry pass or drive and dish or perhaps a superior defender .
    All things Danny has shown he can do as recently as this preseason. Is Danny as flashy as Lance with his dribbling and passing no, but Danny also is more than capable of "breaking down" a SF and passing to the open man. He just doesn't break ankles, and make no look passes. Effectiveness is more important than style, and while Lance has Danny beat on style easily, Danny is capable of being just as effective doing the same thing as the "5th option". What would be even more effective though, is have George and Hill do that while Danny drains open 3's while still being a threat to score in the post, off the dribble, or from mid-range. The reason Lance is so much more effective offensively with the ball in his hands is because he doesn't have the offensive arsenal that Danny has. Danny has the ability to be anything from the number one option that does the most scoring to the number 5 option who just waits for the ball in the corner. Lance on the other hand is most effective as the first or second option, so that when he gets down to being the 5th option all he really brings is he isn't going to make a stupid mistake. Lots of players are capable of that. So why limit a good chunk of his minutes starting him, when you have another player who is more capable of filling that role, and put Lance into a role that lets him help the team more than he would starting. It doesn't make basketball sense. You want Lance to be your 6th man because it puts him in the best position to take advantage of his skills, while putting Danny in with the starters fills a gap that is needed.

    It isn't like Lance was constantly breaking down defenders last year, and he won't be this year with the starters either. If you want Lance in a position to help the team the most you want him coming off the bench and Granger starting.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's irrelevant until Danny is playing.
    I'd like Danny to start ideally but it will be ~8-10 games before he's back and then how many more until he's back in game shape? Another 10 more? All in all I'd think it's 15-20 games into he's back to old form barrng any set backs.

    I guess ~3/4 of the season is plenty to get a groove but I'm just worried he will be in and out of the line up.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    I'd like Danny to start ideally but it will be ~8-10 games before he's back and then how many more until he's back in game shape? Another 10 more? All in all I'd think it's 15-20 games into he's back to old form barrng any set backs.

    I guess ~3/4 of the season is plenty to get a groove but I'm just worried he will be in and out of the line up.
    Let's see, the earliest he's expected back is three weeks, so that means the earliest he'd be back is November 20th @NYK. That would be the 11th game of the year. I don't know that he needs 10 games to be in game shape. I imagine it will take some time to be whatever his 100% looks like these days, but 10 sounds too long to me. I would think he'd come off the bench for 1 to a few games, but if he's looking good in that stretch I don't think it will be very long before he's starting (assuming, of course, this is it for him in terms of significant injuries).

    As soon as he looks like he did during the @CHI preseason game again, he'll start, I think. If the calf hadn't been an issue after the vs DAL game, he'd already be the starter.

    I'd guess he's starting by December 1st if not sooner, if we assume he's healthy in 3 weeks and stays healthy.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    You want that third guy ready ...........
    Let's get the READY part out of the way first.

    In and out and in and out and in and out and in and out (etc....) is good for some things. Just not a starter on a contending team.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Let's get the READY part out of the way first.

    In and out and in and out and in and out and in and out (etc....) is good for some things. Just not a starter on a contending team.
    Still doesn't make Lance a better fit with the starters than with the bench crew, though. If I felt like Orlando or Solomon could handle it, I'd still almost prefer starting one of them because they could fit better than Lance IMO, even though obviously Lance is the better player at this point. Better to have someone who just worries about being ready to shoot or score and spaces the floor as best he can.

    My guess? Neither will start over Lance, but Lance will be the first one subbed out so that he can come back in with the bench.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'd guess he's starting by December 1st if not sooner, if we assume he's healthy in 3 weeks and stays healthy.
    Let's play WHAT IF.

    What if the Pacers are 14-2 at that point ?? Lance isn't the star on the starting 5, but the team is clicking and playing well. Now what ??

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Let's play WHAT IF.

    What if the Pacers are 14-2 at that point ?? Lance isn't the star on the starting 5, but the team is clicking and playing well. Now what ??
    Don't mess with what's working.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    Don't mess with what's working.
    Seems kind of silly considering that 14-2 won't consist of 16 games against Miami and Chicago.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Let's play WHAT IF.

    What if the Pacers are 14-2 at that point ?? Lance isn't the star on the starting 5, but the team is clicking and playing well. Now what ??
    You do whatever you think is best for the team. I think Danny starting is even better than Lance starting, so I would expect us to continue winning quite a bit of our games after Danny returned to the starting 5. We'd just be even more of a juggernaut if we were already 14-2.

    The 'don't mess with what's working' stuff gets overblown in this scenario IMO. It's not that that isn't sometimes wise, it's that you don't take it so far as to make it some 'rule', either. If Miami offered to trade us LeBron for Lance tomorrow, you wouldn't say, "NO WAY; WE'RE 14-2 WE CAN'T RISK IT WHILE WE HAVE SOMETHING GOOD GOING."

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    You can always improve, just don't take stupid risks. Switching Granger for Lance is not a big risk.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    19 points 7 rebounds and 5 assist for Lance tonight

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    19 points 7 rebounds and 5 assist for Lance tonight
    but, but, "healthy" Granger from 2009 was really really good. Lance isn't supposed to be any good at all. he was a second round pick.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    19 points 7 rebounds and 5 assist for Lance tonight
    And a lot of minutes with the bench unit as well
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