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Thread: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The second option doesn't have to be a great scorer but if Danny is our second option while shooting a horrible .318(2013 numbers not 2011 or 2006 numbers) then that means that our team sucks, again I'm relying on things I got to see a week ago no things I got to see few season ago.

    And sure I know you guys are going to tell me that he has always been slow to start the season and blah blah blah but how we know that that is not going to be the norm from now on? some of you want to find that out by starting him for the hell of it and that is stupid in my opinion.

    Note that I'm not even talking about his bad D and the kind of defensive liability he is now(in 2013)
    Agreed. If Danny shoots 32% he won't be a viable option.

    But, while we're looking at hilariously small sample sizes, consider this:

    Monta Ellis is garbage. Shooting 40%, averaging 10ppg, and shooting 23% from 3.
    James Harden? What a joke. Shot only 41% against the Pacers LOL he sucks.
    Lebron? He's been average, barely scoring 14ppg on 50% shooting. Best player in the world hahahaha yeah right.

    I mean, I'm only using 2013 preseason numbers, not 2011/2012 numbers. Because I'm relying on what I'm seeing right now.

    Also, the preseason is ALWAYS a fantastic barometer of regular and post season success.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Most definitely I don't know what I'm talking about. It's why butterflies shoot out of my butt and I pee rainbows.
    You are still not proving anything, the fact is that Rashard Lewis has accomplished more things in the NBA than DG.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The second option doesn't have to be a great scorer but if Danny is our second option while shooting a horrible .318(2013 numbers not 2011 or 2006 numbers) then that means that our team sucks, again I'm relying on things I got to see a week ago no things I got to see few season ago.

    And sure I know you guys are going to tell me that he has always been slow to start the season and blah blah blah but how we know that that is not going to be the norm from now on? some of you want to find that out by starting him for the hell of it and that is stupid in my opinion.

    Note that I'm not even talking about his bad D and the kind of defensive liability he is now(in 2013)
    Roy Hibbert's shooting .352 from the center position in the preseason (2013 numbers). OMG WE'RE DOOMED.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    As far as the Pacers are concerned, it doesn't matter which player takes on the 6th man role as long as that person is a consistent major scoring contributor off the bench.
    Yes, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that he himself is the one actually scoring. Ian averaging 8ppg because Lance/Danny gets him the ball in an excellent position to score a lot is just as good as Lance/Danny scoring it themselves. It wasn't Lebron driving and scoring that were the most difficult to defend and efficient plays, it was Lebron driving and dishing to Birdman that were the most difficult to defend and most efficient offense.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Roy Hibbert's shooting .352 from the center position in the preseason (2013 numbers). OMG WE'RE DOOMED.
    I don't think he was out for a whole season was he? we have a full season and playoffs to know what we are going to get from Roy, at this point all we have from Danny is preseason and 3 games he played last year were he looked horrible that's it.

    Now if you want to ignore that he missed a whole season because of injury and want to believe that he was on vacation go ahead and keep believing that.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Agreed. If Danny shoots 32% he won't be a viable option.

    But, while we're looking at hilariously small sample sizes, consider this:

    Monta Ellis is garbage. Shooting 40%, averaging 10ppg, and shooting 23% from 3.
    James Harden? What a joke. Shot only 41% against the Pacers LOL he sucks.
    Lebron? He's been average, barely scoring 14ppg on 50% shooting. Best player in the world hahahaha yeah right.

    I mean, I'm only using 2013 preseason numbers, not 2011/2012 numbers. Because I'm relying on what I'm seeing right now.

    Also, the preseason is ALWAYS a fantastic barometer of regular and post season success.
    I didn't know all those guys were out for the season and had knee surgeries thanks for letting me know that ....

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    I think it is easy:

    If Danny can stay healthy, start him.
    If not, go with Lance for continuity.

    All we need is a magic 8 ball now...
    Don't need a magic 8 ball, we have several resident doctors here at PD giving their diagnosis.

    Seriously, don't try to bring logic into this discussion. This is the thread where you pick your favorite player then trash the other one to validate your emotional opinions. GO PACERS!

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't think he was out for a whole season was he? we have a full season and playoffs to know what we are going to get from Roy, at this point all we have from Danny is preseason and 3 games he played last year were he looked horrible that's it.

    Now if you want to ignore that he missed a whole season because of injury and want to believe that he was on vacation go ahead and keep believing that.
    I actually don't think he's looked that bad. He's missing shots and has been a little slow on defense laterally, but that's about it. Not everybody comes back from injury the way Derrick Rose does. It's preseason, and Danny is going to be allowed to take and miss shots. In the regular season he will be more limited in the shots he takes and his efficiency will go up.

    Danny's shooting 47% from 3, which tells you that he's missing shots due to contact. Because, as you said, he just missed a full season and is just getting back into it. Seeing as though his 2pt fg% is normally better than his 3pt fg%, I think it's pretty safe he will play better everywhere on the court as he gets used to the pace of the game.

    You don't actually think that the Danny just returning from a year off is the same Danny we're going to see all year do you?

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    *Peeks into this thread to see if it hasn't devolved into usual Danny thread, sees that it has, sighs and leaves*

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I actually don't think he's looked that bad. He's missing shots and has been a little slow on defense laterally, but that's about it. Not everybody comes back from injury the way Derrick Rose does. It's preseason, and Danny is going to be allowed to take and miss shots. In the regular season he will be more limited in the shots he takes and his efficiency will go up.

    Danny's shooting 47% from 3, which tells you that he's missing shots due to contact. Because, as you said, he just missed a full season and is just getting back into it. Seeing as though his 2pt fg% is normally better than his 3pt fg%, I think it's pretty safe he will play better everywhere on the court as he gets used to the pace of the game.

    You don't actually think that the Danny just returning from a year off is the same Danny we're going to see all year do you?

    Nope I think he is going to get better I just don't think he is going to be good enough to be the second option or even the 4th option, I also don't think he is going to be good enough to start, or be back to be an all star or the Pippen to Jordan or any of the other dreams some of you guys are talking about.

    I think Danny is a role player from now on(2013), I think he could be our Rashard Lewis/Mike Miller type of player(in Miami) not a
    bad thing to have but I see that anybody that suggest that is pretty much trashing Danny and want him dead.

    And I'm sorry to disagree but yeah he has looked really bad in preseason against a lot of garbage players too, I expected him to look bad but not this bad.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 10-23-2013 at 12:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You are still not proving anything, the fact is that Rashard Lewis has accomplished more things in the NBA than DG.
    How has he accomplished more than DG? He went to the finals once carried by Dwight and the KG was injured during their run. In that finals run they got demolished as he could not hit any threes. After that he did nothing, and is now a ring-chaser. He barely played for the Heat when it mattered. A player being payed 20 million a year should not be the 4th option on a contending team. I don't really understand your point, are you saying after 4 preseason games, DG should retire from the NBA, just because he looked bad? Man the entire Pacers team should retire because everyone has looked out of form in the preseason.

    I could care less who starts, as long as we win games, we have the option of starting one or another depending on the matchups

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nope I think he is going to get better I just don't think he is going to be good enough to be the second option or even the 4th option, I also don't think he is going to be good enough to start, or be back to be an all star or the Pippen to Jordan or any of the other dreams some of you guys are talking about.

    I think Danny is a role player from now on(2013), I think he could be our Rashard Lewis/Mike Miller type of player(in Miami) not a
    bad thing to have but I see that anybody that suggest that is pretty much trashing Danny and want him dead.

    And I'm sorry to disagree but yeah he has looked really bad in preseason against a lot of garbage players too, I expected him to look bad but not this bad.
    People tend to think that you're bashing a player when you argue that

    1) The player will be constantly aggravating an injury
    2) Even if he doesn't aggrave it, he still isn't good enough

    and when you've been saying that he should be traded because you don't think he's very good for years prior.

    The Manilla game is on youtube. I'm watching the second quarter right now and in the last 5 minutes he's made two athletic drive and wrap-around passes, hit a nice jumper off of a screen, and I just saw him dig down and help on a post up but get back out to the perimeter in time to contest the 3 pointer.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    *Peeks into this thread to see if it hasn't devolved into usual Danny thread, sees that it has, sighs and leaves*
    Unfortunately it's not going to change until The season begins...and even then the pre-determined ideas and thoughts of both players will probably continue.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    People tend to think that you're bashing a player when you argue that

    1) The player will be constantly aggravating an injury
    Well he has a degenerative injury in his knee that is never going to heal(according to many doctors) and him not playing in preseason anymore because he is injured is making my point right?

    2) Even if he doesn't aggrave it, he still isn't good enough
    Not anymore.

    and when you've been saying that he should be traded because you don't think he's very good for years prior.
    I wanted him traded because I saw him declining every year and because I was worried about him losing trade value if the teams draft predictions came true, I guess we know the answer to that.

    The Manilla game is on youtube. I'm watching the second quarter right now and in the last 5 minutes he's made two athletic drive and wrap-around passes, hit a nice jumper off of a screen, and I just saw him dig down and help on a post up but get back out to the perimeter in time to contest the 3 pointer.
    Yep he looked decent at times I even said it on the game thread, that doesn't mean that I didn't get to see the bad either, I mean even Copeland had his moments lol

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Well he has a degenerative injury in his knee that is never going to heal(according to many doctors) and him not playing in preseason anymore because he is injured is making my point right?



    Not anymore.



    I wanted him traded because I saw him declining every year and because I was worried about him losing trade value if the teams draft predictions came true, I guess we know the answer to that.



    Yep he looked decent at times I even said it on the game thread, that doesn't mean that I didn't get to see the bad either, I mean even Copeland had his moments lol
    My one caveat with this post is that he is sitting out as a precautionary measure for a separate injury than the one he missed the season with. It is probably not completely independent of his knee injury, but one that is much more easily treated.

    Other than that, you agreed with everything I said with the exception of qualifying the one positive comment I had with a negative. If you wanted, for everybody but LeBron you could make a strong case against any player in the NBA that they are a bad player based solely upon what they cannot do if you ignore the positives in your assessment.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    My one caveat with this post is that he is sitting out as a precautionary measure for a separate injury than the one he missed the season with. It is probably not completely independent of his knee injury, but one that is much more easily treated.
    He is sitting because he is injured and sure we don't know if that is related to his knee or not.

    Other than that, you agreed with everything I said with the exception of qualifying the one positive comment I had with a negative. If you wanted, for everybody but LeBron you could make a strong case against any player in the NBA that they are a bad player based solely upon what they cannot do if you ignore the positives in your assessment.
    Well if I was evaluating the 12th man on the team I wouldn't be as critical but we are talking about a player that guys like Eleazar think he can be the number one option and not worse than the 2nd option, you guys also love to talk about his offense but nobody talks about the other parts of the game, somebody even said that his "team defense" was great, if there is something I've learned in PD is that when somebody says that a player plays good "team defense" that means that that player is just not that good on defense(see Dunleavy and Murphy).

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I didn't know all those guys were out for the season and had knee surgeries thanks for letting me know that ....
    Oh, wait, I'm so shocked: You're changing the parameters of the discussion because the narrative no longer works.

    So, now we're supposed to make judgments based of incredibly small sample sizes only in the case of players coming off of injury?

    Ok. This is like the kid that refuses to acknowledge a good counterpoint...in a few days, you're going to say: "Sure, look only at a small handful of games if the guy is coming off of knee surgery and played college ball in New Mexico and is considered a 3 point shooting specialist that once had his teeth knocked out and is from New Orleans."

    Keep changing the criteria to support the narrative.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Oh, wait, I'm so shocked: You're changing the parameters of the discussion because the narrative no longer works.

    So, now we're supposed to make judgments based of incredibly small sample sizes only in the case of players coming off of injury?

    Ok. This is like the kid that refuses to acknowledge a good counterpoint...in a few days, you're going to say: "Sure, look only at a small handful of games if the guy is coming off of knee surgery and played college ball in New Mexico and is considered a 3 point shooting specialist that once had his teeth knocked out and is from New Orleans."

    Keep changing the criteria to support the narrative.
    Well I'm not the one putting my head in the sand acting like 12/13 didn't happen, I'm glad we didn't sign Oden or some of you would be telling me about his numbers of 3 years ago ignoring the years he was off(no comparing DG to Oden so stop it)


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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I was actually much higher on Lance last year than most were and was arguing for people to not give up on him. And I don't know what you mean by "integral" part of the team, but he was easily the fifth most important starter on our team and pretty much gave us a very average player's production at the spot. He did rebound extremely well in the playoffs against three small ball teams and changed the dynamic of a few games, but so did all of the other starters. He also lost efficiency dramatically as his USG rate increased.
    We're not making it to game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals without Lance Stephenson. He wasn't just along for the ride. No one else on the roster gives us what Lance did last year. I don't really care about the average numbers because he was a basically a rookie.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
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    Keep Lance on bench.

    Reason: Keep his amount of exposure. It will make us easier to sign Lance at a smaller contract.

    /green
    You joking, but this has crossed my mind. If Lance's usage were to spike and his game improves we may not have a chance to sign him.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    You are correct that the improvement made by George was far more apparent because Granger was not in the starting lineup. However, the improvement made by George had nothing to do with Lance being in the lineup. Not trying to be a smart-arse or taking anything away from what Lance accomplished last year, but we could have had OJ or DJ in the starting lineup instead of Lance, and George still would have emerged. His better performance came about through a greater reliance upon him for scoring and a much greater utilization.

    I've also been of the opinion that players on their rookie contracts seem to show their greatest jump in improvement/performance in their third season. By that time, they have learned the ropes, adjusted to NBA life and have earned a shot at much more playing time. Last year, with Granger's injury, you could say the stars aligned perfectly for the emergence of George. And voila! A star in the making.
    I'm not trying to give Lance credit for Paul's ascension, although I believe he makes his teammates better unlike Danny, but my point is people can't assume we'd have been an even better team with Danny on the floor. Paul and Lance's vast improvement was a direct result of receiving more opportunity because of the Danny injury.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I'm not trying to give Lance credit for Paul's ascension, although I believe he makes his teammates better unlike Danny, but my point is people can't assume we'd have been an even better team with Danny on the floor. Paul and Lance's vast improvement was a direct result of receiving more opportunity because of the Danny injury.
    I'm in the camp that believes "the cream rises to the top." Paul is way too talented to have not made a huge step forward last season. Would he have been on the cusp of superstardom is anyone's guess, but I certainly believe he was headed towards a huge step in that direction whether Danny was playing or not.

    As for Lance making his teammates better he is certainly a more dynamic ball handler and a willing yet somewhat erratic passer, but it's not as if he's out there dishing assists left and right (a lot of it due to his role within our offense where he's relegated to spot up's, backdoor cuts, and open court opportunities).

    Lance also demonstrated that he was going to be a part of the team starting with the second game of the year against the Bobcats. He ended up becoming the starter because Gerald Green stunk up the place, but Lance was coming off the bench and was giving us good production and demonstrated his improvement way before he became the full time starter. He averaged close to the same numbers as both a starter and a reserve (though his time as a reserve was a small sample size--6 games)

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yes, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that he himself is the one actually scoring. Ian averaging 8ppg because Lance/Danny gets him the ball in an excellent position to score a lot is just as good as Lance/Danny scoring it themselves. It wasn't Lebron driving and scoring that were the most difficult to defend and efficient plays, it was Lebron driving and dishing to Birdman that were the most difficult to defend and most efficient offense.
    I love Granger as much as the next guy, but he's never gotten anyone in an excellent position to score. He's way too busy trying to get his own shots and passing may be his greatest weakness. Even greater than his mechanical right handed dribble.

    Edit: I do appreciate and agree that LeBron's strength is his passing. He's dangerous for many reasons and it's his passing game on offense which might be his greatest strength.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-23-2013 at 10:23 PM.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I think about team building.

    I wrote down the four we agree upon and think about the best compliment to the group.

    The largest size difference between any of the four is between Hill and George. Lance's size fits exactly where we need it.
    Of course we can always play big with DG and make them match up. When we do that we'll leave PG guarding a guy Lance's size more often than not- because Danny's not going to be effective at that- yet he can cover the 3's almost as well as Paul.
    I'd rather see Paul filling out and finding his real position than trying to fight through screens guarding DWade types (unless it's necessary for a particular game).

    Also the idea that the "fifth" starter will be the fifth option because we need more out of Hill is wrong headed.
    We need more out of Hill because he is inconsistent.
    It's true that he is much better when he's fired up but I think that's pretty human. And "clearing space" for him by 'naming' him the higher option will not prove overly effective.

    And to the extent that such an argument is worth considering I would draw the opposite conclusion. Not Granger! Because GHill will more likely defer to Danny.Danny just will shoot more than lance and generally step to the fore.
    Hill will become subdued.
    Danny's never been fifth option in his life. Unless he starts hopping on one leg this year will not be any different.

    Lance on the other hand -who I have supported from the start, and suggested (to gufaws) a year or so ago that he may get ten points a game if he were given minutes- WILL defer to George Hill.
    Hill will more likely feel needed and step up if Danny's not holding his hands out on the corner.

    I think it's too close to the start of the season for this debate to drag on. Lance is going to start because Danny's still rounding into form.

    And concerning which we will keep this summer I think it's pretty clear. We picked up Solo AND Cope.
    We shall feel pretty confident that ONE of them can be an adequate back-up THREE by next year.
    We've built with one eye on his departure.

    If Danny "beats out" Lance as the season goes down (which may be a better poll) that will be gravy.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    I think about team building.

    I wrote down the four we agree upon and think about the best compliment to the group.

    The largest size difference between any of the four is between Hill and George. Lance's size fits exactly where we need it.
    Of course we can always play big with DG and make them match up. When we do that we'll leave PG guarding a guy Lance's size more often than not- because Danny's not going to be effective at that- yet he can cover the 3's almost as well as Paul.
    I'd rather see Paul filling out and finding his real position than trying to fight through screens guarding DWade types (unless it's necessary for a particular game).

    Also the idea that the "fifth" starter will be the fifth option because we need more out of Hill is wrong headed.
    We need more out of Hill because he is inconsistent.
    It's true that he is much better when he's fired up but I think that's pretty human. And "clearing space" for him by 'naming' him the higher option will not prove overly effective.

    And to the extent that such an argument is worth considering I would draw the opposite conclusion. Not Granger! Because GHill will more likely defer to Danny.Danny just will shoot more than lance and generally step to the fore.
    Hill will become subdued.
    Danny's never been fifth option in his life. Unless he starts hopping on one leg this year will not be any different.

    Lance on the other hand -who I have supported from the start, and suggested (to gufaws) a year or so ago that he may get ten points a game if he were given minutes- WILL defer to George Hill.
    Hill will more likely feel needed and step up if Danny's not holding his hands out on the corner.

    I think it's too close to the start of the season for this debate to drag on. Lance is going to start because Danny's still rounding into form.

    And concerning which we will keep this summer I think it's pretty clear. We picked up Solo AND Cope.
    We shall feel pretty confident that ONE of them can be an adequate back-up THREE by next year.
    We've built with one eye on his departure.

    If Danny "beats out" Lance as the season goes down (which may be a better poll) that will be gravy.
    Judging from everything Vogel, Lance, and the other non-Granger players have said, I think they actually have Granger slotted in to start. And I think (for this year) that Lance wants to play off the bench if he's guaranteed starter minutes.

    “It don’t matter,” Stephenson said, then responded to a question about whether he feels more comfortable coming off the bench: “If I can get more options on the second unit, then I feel like that will be the best thing to do.”
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2013...ing-guard-spot

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