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Thread: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I see no reason to alter the positive part of the team that made the team accomplishment of taking Miami 7 games. The starting lineup was not broken and the bench was. So let's not fix what isn't broken...
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    I think Lance's playmaking abilities are being overestimated here. He can run the fast break like noone on our team and he can break his man down off that dribble. That is about it,
    You think? Have you not seen some of the sweet entry passes Lance has made to West, for example? Lance is just 22 and is going to get even better. Danny's already peaked and will never again play that well. These are the facts. In 12 months, Danny Granger will have a different mailing address.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    In 12 months, Danny Granger will have a different mailing address.
    Probably but we're trying to win a championship now! Who helps the most at the moment? That's the whole point of the debate, imo.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I see no reason to alter the positive part of the team that made the team accomplishment of taking Miami 7 games. The starting lineup was not broken and the bench was. So let's not fix what isn't broken...
    It wasn't broken with Danny in the line-up either. So again stupid argument. Bring something of substance and logic to the discussion please.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Probably but we're trying to win a championship now! Who helps the most at the moment? That's the whole point of the debate, imo.
    Both will help us. The question is whether you want a consistent starting lineup with a potentially great backup who will end up playing big minutes...or you want to roll the dice with your starting lineup.

    Edit: What happens if it's March and Granger has issues with scar tissue again? That would make a fine mess.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    It wasn't broken with Danny in the line-up either. So again stupid argument. Bring something of substance and logic to the discussion please.
    That was when Granger was healthy. He's yet to prove it. In fact, if anything he's shown he can't stay on the floor. We know the starting unit with Lance was good enough to win it all. A bird in the hand my friend. You want to risk that by wheeling out a guy with a questionable knee?

    A guy who can't even stay on the floor. A guy who has injured his back and calf compensating for a knee he's not relying on. If Granger isn't operating on all cylinders, he shouldn't be in the starting lineup. Let him play lots and lots of minutes. I'm fine with that. But if we cannot rely on him staying on the floor he shouldn't be starting...risking home court advantage. If we don't allow the starting unit to gel because he's can't stay healthy...or worse if he goes down like he did last year...
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-22-2013 at 09:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    That was when Granger was healthy. He's yet to prove it. In fact, if anything he's shown he can't stay on the floor. We know the starting unit with Lance was good enough to win it all. A bird in the hand my friend. You want to risk that by wheeling out a guy with a questionable knee?

    A guy who can't even stay on the floor. A guy who has injured his back and calf compensating for a knee he's not relying on. If Granger isn't operating on all cylinders, he shouldn't be in the starting lineup. Let him play lots and lots of minutes. I'm fine with that. But if we cannot rely on him staying on the floor he shouldn't be starting...risking home court advantage. If we don't allow the starting unit to gel because he's can't stay healthy...or worse if he goes down like he did last year...
    So are you saying that last years starting 5 didn't have good chemistry, and that group needs to play together in order to build chemistry in case Granger has an injury? But you aren't worried about if Lance has an injury, and Granger steps in for him?

    If everyone accepts that last years squad had great chemistry, which I have yet to see someone say they didn't, then there is no need to worry about that unit gelling together.

    Anyone can tweak their back on an illegal screen, he wasn't compensating for anything. A strained muscle may have something to do with compensating, but much more likely it is just because of the time off. Neither are anything worth worrying about. Most players have such injuries during the course of an NBA season, it is about as worrisome as a jammed finger.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Pros for DJ/Hans over CJ/Scola
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game Series

    Cons for CJ/Scola over DJ/Hans
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game Series

    See how stupid that argument is? Don't place team accomplishments to individuals who were just along for the ride. The difference between 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 was George, Hibbert, and playing the Heat in the ECF instead of semi-finals.
    C'mon man, that's just weak. I notice it's the same folks who never believed in Lance in the first place that keep saying he wasn't an integral part of our team last year. IMO Paul was able to spread his wings BECAUASE of the Lance/Granger swap. What makes you think Paul becomes the player he has if Granger's still in the line-up taking up a quarter of the posessions?

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    So are you saying that last years starting 5 didn't have good chemistry, and that group needs to play together in order to build chemistry in case Granger has an injury? But you aren't worried about if Lance has an injury, and Granger steps in for him?

    If everyone accepts that last years squad had great chemistry, which I have yet to see someone say they didn't, then there is no need to worry about that unit gelling together.

    Anyone can tweak their back on an illegal screen, he wasn't compensating for anything. A strained muscle may have something to do with compensating, but much more likely it is just because of the time off. Neither are anything worth worrying about. Most players have such injuries during the course of an NBA season, it is about as worrisome as a jammed finger.
    He doesn't trust his knee yet. That's why it's happening IMPO. We'll see how it goes.

    What I do not want to see is either of two things.

    1) Danny start but go in and out of the starting lineup wasting precious time...losing games and home court...then ultimately Lance starting later in the season because it becomes clear that Danny cannot be relied upon. Sure, Lance has experience with the starters but more experience is going to help a young player.

    2) Danny start and have issues with scar tissue later in the season. His issue is basically "jumper's knee" from over-use. The tendon had scar tissue and they cut it off the tendon. The tendon will never be the same and a recurrence is a risk. I think it's a big risk for a professional athlete playing an 82 game season. If he starts and goes down in February or March due to more scar tissue, it will stink but it will stink more if he had been the starter all year.

    This all comes down to expectations and risk tolerance. We are all Pacer fans. I think we all like Danny and Lance. I don't want to risk it because I know you only have so many shots at a ring. We had the best starting lineup in the NBA just last season. Why risk changing that? It's debatable that Granger in his current state is as good as Lance considering all facets of the game. Why not give Danny all the minutes he can handle and have him come off the bench? Very low risk and it's all gravy with a much, much better bench.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    C'mon man, that's just weak. I notice it's the same folks who never believed in Lance in the first place that keep saying he wasn't an integral part of our team last year. IMO Paul was able to spread his wings BECAUASE of the Lance/Granger swap. What makes you think Paul becomes the player he has if Granger's still in the line-up taking up a quarter of the posessions?
    FWIW, I was NOT a Lance Stephenson fan on draft day or the first year. But I changed my tune after seeing his game. I'm a Bird/fundamentals fan far more than the And-One stuff. The fact is, Lance has some of the gifts that make players like LeBron and Magic the best in history. Whether he fully makes use of them effectively is a real question...but even if he doesn't he is still very solid and getting better.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    It's amazing for me to see the so call Danny fans wanting him to play starter minutes and pretty much run him to the ground before the playoffs, even in pre-season some posters were super happy that he was pilling up all those minutes after not playing for a long time, now he got injured because Danny himself, the Pacers and somewhat the so called fans were not able to control themself and instead of bringing him up slowly they decided for some reason that he needed to be ready for the first game of the season, stupid decision on everybody's part if you ask me.


    Now lets hope that this "fans" don't get burned for wanting a guy with a bad knee to play 30+ minutes a game because they have a mancrush on him, lets hope the Pacers are smarter this time.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 10-22-2013 at 10:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You think? Have you not seen some of the sweet entry passes Lance has made to West, for example? Lance is just 22 and is going to get even better. Danny's already peaked and will never again play that well. These are the facts. In 12 months, Danny Granger will have a different mailing address.
    Lance's passing is inconsistent. One game, I'm walking to my car thinking back in awe of the 4-5 passes that Lance completed during the game that no one else on our team would dream of attempting. The next game, I'm walking to my car pissed off at Lance for attempting 4-5 difficult passes that didn't work out. Most games, it is half and half, meaning that some passes work out and others do not.

    Considering his youth and relative inexperience, this is not altogether a bad thing. He has the confidence to attempt the passes in the first place and he makes himself very unpredictable for his opponents. But, the fundamentalist in me really wishes that he would dial it back a notch or two and just learn to play within himself. More under control and making appropriate decisions that would lead to fewer turnovers.

    If we contrasted Danny to Lance in this regard, obviously Danny is limited in his ability to create. For the most part, Danny creates for others only by being a shooting threat, commanding defenders to close space to contend shots and dishing off. Danny usually does not commit turnovers while passing to others because he hardly ever attempts a difficult pass. His turnovers come mostly from ball handling miscues in traffic. We could say that with regards to passing, Danny plays within himself because he doesn't attempt what he is not able to do.

    To determine which player should be on the court at any given moment, I think it should be determined by what is needed by the players on the floor. If Danny is on the floor and his shooting is not opening up greater opportunities for getting he ball into West and Hibbert, then we should switch to Lance and let him drive the ball. If Lance is not contributing offensively and we can't get the ball in to West and Hibbert, then we bring in Danny to see if his shooting can help open things up.

    The approach to the game by these two players is different. It really does give us a lot of versatility. We have the best of both worlds. It really doesn't matter anymore which player starts, although I've always had a greater fondness for Granger. The only thing that I want to see is Vogel being quick to swap one out for the other in order to provide what is needed by the offense at any moment.
    Last edited by beast23; 10-22-2013 at 10:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    He doesn't trust his knee yet. That's why it's happening IMPO. We'll see how it goes.

    What I do not want to see is either of two things.

    1) Danny start but go in and out of the starting lineup wasting precious time...losing games and home court...then ultimately Lance starting later in the season because it becomes clear that Danny cannot be relied upon. Sure, Lance has experience with the starters but more experience is going to help a young player.

    2) Danny start and have issues with scar tissue later in the season. His issue is basically "jumper's knee" from over-use. The tendon had scar tissue and they cut it off the tendon. The tendon will never be the same and a recurrence is a risk. I think it's a big risk for a professional athlete playing an 82 game season. If he starts and goes down in February or March due to more scar tissue, it will stink but it will stink more if he had been the starter all year.

    This all comes down to expectations and risk tolerance. We are all Pacer fans. I think we all like Danny and Lance. I don't want to risk it because I know you only have so many shots at a ring. We had the best starting lineup in the NBA just last season. Why risk changing that? It's debatable that Granger in his current state is as good as Lance considering all facets of the game. Why not give Danny all the minutes he can handle and have him come off the bench? Very low risk and it's all gravy with a much, much better bench.
    Since he is going to be playing the same amount of minutes whether or not he starts, we will have to replace the same amount of minutes either way. There are only 3 players (Copeland, CJ, Scola) likely to see rotation minutes on our roster that don't have experience in Vogel's system. These guys will all be able to play with each other by the end of the year well, man 1 through man 12. If Granger is the better overall player, and there's a lot of evidence that indicate that he still is, then you start him.

    I just don't see the risk aversion angle. If you believe Stephenson is better, that should be your argument. Because otherwise you're ceding that Granger is the better fit, but you're willing to handicap your team's potential because something bad *might* happen.

    The Pacers aren't a bunch of hormonal 14 year old girls, they're grown men. I would like to think that they would be able to adapt to any one of the 5 spots going out for injury. Conversely, every member of the bench should be ready for extended minutes.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    C'mon man, that's just weak. I notice it's the same folks who never believed in Lance in the first place that keep saying he wasn't an integral part of our team last year. IMO Paul was able to spread his wings BECAUASE of the Lance/Granger swap. What makes you think Paul becomes the player he has if Granger's still in the line-up taking up a quarter of the posessions?
    I was actually much higher on Lance last year than most were and was arguing for people to not give up on him. And I don't know what you mean by "integral" part of the team, but he was easily the fifth most important starter on our team and pretty much gave us a very average player's production at the spot. He did rebound extremely well in the playoffs against three small ball teams and changed the dynamic of a few games, but so did all of the other starters. He also lost efficiency dramatically as his USG rate increased.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Edit: What happens if it's March and Granger has issues with scar tissue again? That would make a fine mess.
    Wait a minute. I presume you mean that, in he event that Granger is the starter, Granger experiencing issues with scar tissue in March will make for a fine mess for our starting line up?

    If this is correct, are you serious? In that event, our starting lineup moves on, the same as it did last year, with Lance inserted in as the SG.

    The only "fine mess" that is created would be the same problem that we would have if any of our rotational players were injured. And that problem would be that our depth is suddenly decreased by a player. In fact, if Granger or Lance either one were injured, I would say that the negative affect on the performance of the team would be much less than if one of the other four starters became injured. Lance and Granger can fill in suitably for one another, as can West and Scola (I'm hoping, anyway). If we are lucky, Watson will eventually be able to provide the same redundancy for GHill.

    Now if one of George or Hibbert is injured, then hell yes we are in a pickle. Or "fine mess" as you put it.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Is the person that we are not supposed to quote really just insensate that it is the Granger Fans fault that Danny got hurt in the preseason because they wanted him to play too much?!?

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If I thought Danny would play at the level he was a few years ago, I think I might have a bit different opinion.
    But we don't need Danny to play at the level he played 2 years ago.

    Look, I honestly believe that we have 6 starters at the moment. Both Lance and Danny are worthy of a starting spot.

    I mentioned our offensive options in my first post for a simple reason. I believe that no matter which one of Lance or Danny starts, they will be the 5th option. That's how I think that our offensive options will look like:

    PG will be the #1 option. One of Hibbert or West will be our #2 option (the one who has the easiest match-up or the one who has the hot hand). Hill and our other big will alternate between the #3 and #4 option. We need Hill to be aggressive since he is better when he's aggressive and our bigs will keep getting their touches regardless of match-ups due to our power post philosophy.

    That simply means that the 5th starter will be the 5th option, no matter who he is. If Danny is that player then he will simply work his way around screens and get open jumpers. If Lance is that player then will attempt back-cuts and get lay-ups or simply score on the fast break.

    The point is that neither Lance nor Granger will have the ball in their hands if they are the 5th starter. That is not a big problem for Danny since he is a good off the ball player but that is an issue with Lance since he is so much better with the ball in his hands.

    In general, I'm undecided on the subject. Both of them can give you an advantage as a starter and both of them can give you an advantage off the bench. Heck, I have even entertained the idea of a token starter in order to bring both Lance and Danny off the bench and ensure a continuous flow of offensive production.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    C'mon man, that's just weak. I notice it's the same folks who never believed in Lance in the first place that keep saying he wasn't an integral part of our team last year. IMO Paul was able to spread his wings BECAUASE of the Lance/Granger swap. What makes you think Paul becomes the player he has if Granger's still in the line-up taking up a quarter of the posessions?
    You are correct that the improvement made by George was far more apparent because Granger was not in the starting lineup. However, the improvement made by George had nothing to do with Lance being in the lineup. Not trying to be a smart-arse or taking anything away from what Lance accomplished last year, but we could have had OJ or DJ in the starting lineup instead of Lance, and George still would have emerged. His better performance came about through a greater reliance upon him for scoring and a much greater utilization.

    I've also been of the opinion that players on their rookie contracts seem to show their greatest jump in improvement/performance in their third season. By that time, they have learned the ropes, adjusted to NBA life and have earned a shot at much more playing time. Last year, with Granger's injury, you could say the stars aligned perfectly for the emergence of George. And voila! A star in the making.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You think? Have you not seen some of the sweet entry passes Lance has made to West, for example? Lance is just 22 and is going to get even better. Danny's already peaked and will never again play that well. These are the facts. In 12 months, Danny Granger will have a different mailing address.
    That last part is interesting. I think we all know that we won't be able to afford both players. In fact we may struggle to afford either player but it all depends on how well Danny and Lance play this year as to what their value will be next summer. It's safe to say that we'll end up with the least expensive player since we may have less then 5 mil to spend. If you're so sure Lance is the better player wouldn't you think he'd be the one with the greater value and thus the one with a different mailing address next year?
    I'm pretty sure Danny will net the bigger contract and most likely be the player we lose but he'll have greater value to other teams because he's the better player. He helps our staring lineup more then Lance and should both start and finish in most games.
    Of course you could be right and Lance could break out this year in which case he's gone.
    If we lose both players over the 7 mil we have tied up in Copeland and Ian that will be a crime.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Both will help us. The question is whether you want a consistent starting lineup with a potentially great backup who will end up playing big minutes...or you want to roll the dice with your starting lineup.

    Edit: What happens if it's March and Granger has issues with scar tissue again? That would make a fine mess.
    I agree that both will help us. As I said earlier, I'm undecided on which player I prefer. The only thing that I'm sure about is that no matter if it is Danny or Lance they're going to be the 5th option. And I don't want Lance to be the 5th option. I want him to have the ball in his hands.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    But we don't need Danny to play at the level he played 2 years ago.

    Look, I honestly believe that we have 6 starters at the moment. Both Lance and Danny are worthy of a starting spot.

    I mentioned our offensive options in my first post for a simple reason. I believe that no matter which one of Lance or Danny starts, they will be the 5th option. That's how I think that our offensive options will look like:

    PG will be the #1 option. One of Hibbert or West will be our #2 option (the one who has the easiest match-up or the one who has the hot hand). Hill and our other big will alternate between the #3 and #4 option. We need Hill to be aggressive since he is better when he's aggressive and our bigs will keep getting their touches regardless of match-ups due to our power post philosophy.

    That simply means that the 5th starter will be the 5th option, no matter who he is. If Danny is that player then he will simply work his way around screens and get open jumpers. If Lance is that player then will attempt back-cuts and get lay-ups or simply score on the fast break.

    The point is that neither Lance nor Granger will have the ball in their hands if they are the 5th starter. That is not a big problem for Danny since he is a good off the ball player but that is an issue with Lance since he is so much better with the ball in his hands.

    In general, I'm undecided on the subject. Both of them can give you an advantage as a starter and both of them can give you an advantage off the bench. Heck, I have even entertained the idea of a token starter in order to bring both Lance and Danny off the bench and ensure a continuous flow of offensive production.
    If Lance starts then I agree he is the 5th. starter. If Danny starts he's the 2cd. starter as far as scoring options go.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Is the person that we are not supposed to quote really just insensate that it is the Granger Fans fault that Danny got hurt in the preseason because they wanted him to play too much?!?
    Is the person that is afraid of quoting somebody on an NBA forum making s*** up? I think so.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    If Lance starts then I agree he is the 5th. starter. If Danny starts he's the 2cd. starter as far as scoring options go.
    And if Danny is the 2nd option that means that the Pacers are just not that good.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    C'mon man, that's just weak. I notice it's the same folks who never believed in Lance in the first place that keep saying he wasn't an integral part of our team last year. IMO Paul was able to spread his wings BECAUASE of the Lance/Granger swap. What makes you think Paul becomes the player he has if Granger's still in the line-up taking up a quarter of the posessions?
    Lance certainly was an integral part of our team last year. But that doesn't mean that Danny is suddenly a leper.

    There is some validity in the thought that Paul wouldn't spread his wings if Granger never got injured. Paul was forced into the role of the main perimeter scorer and he flourished under it. At the start of the season it looked like he was about to crash and burn under the pressure but he turned it around and made the leap. But a big reason why Paul was forced to become our perimeter scorer was simply that Danny's replacement (Gerald Green for the first few games, Lance for the rest) weren't as good scorers as Danny was.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think we all like Danny and Lance.
    Not really.

    All people like Lance now but that wasn't the case back in 2011. One of the first things that I learned about Stephenson when I started following the Pacers was the he pushed his girlfriend off the stairs. I wasn't really a fan of him back then.

    Thankfully, Lance has matured and he is now well-liked.

    As for Danny. Well.. We all know that certain people in this forum do not like him.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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