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Thread: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    A lot of players on a lot of teams have been in and out of the lineup during pre-season. Look at D. Rose Joakim Noah and Jimmy Butler for the Bulls for example. 2 of the 3 are coming off of injuries from last season with D.Rose obviously coming off a major injury. It's still PRE-Season, no need to push it if you don't have to.
    It's different. The Bulls don't have anyone remotely capable to replace DRose at PG. We have a player who can fill in quite nicely for Granger and was in fact one of our starters last year on the best starting unit in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    BTW, there were threads on the PG controversy. No, it did not disrupt the team which is a testament to the players, including Collison who was clearly not the best PG. Anyway, I'm glad Vogel and the FO made the right decision. I'm confident they will do the same thing with this issue.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It's different. The Bulls don't have anyone remotely capable to replace DRose at PG. We have a player who can fill in quite nicely for Granger and was in fact one of our starters last year on the best starting unit in the NBA.
    But we were the best starting unit with Granger in the lineup too. That's not a good argument when it's true for both. At the same time there's no good way to compare the two lineups because of differences in the league and improvement of our players. However, you can't just say the lineup last season gets the advantage because it was closer because you don't know what Granger could have done with it.

    I actually think the fact that we started a previously low-minutes player in place of a polished scorer and adequate defender and only went from a .64 to a .61 winning percentage actually provides a good reason to let Danny take his lumps in the starting unit. It won't disrupt the chemistry if Granger has to sit because Lance, Orlando, or Solo are all capable of filling Danny's role in most sets.

    Just look at our team:

    Granger and Hibbert have been together for 5 years. Hibbert, West, Granger, George, Hill, and Stephenson have all been on the team with Vogel as the head coach for at least 2 full years. OJ and Mahinmi have been on the team for 1 full year. We "overhauled" the bench but really just switched out Tyler for Scola/Copeland and DJ for CJ. The bench wing spots will be filled by players already in the system. I don't see how chemistry will be a problem this year even if the injury bug hits hard.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 10-22-2013 at 02:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Danny Granger was the best player on our team for 5 years straight. Both him and Paul George are on USA Today's list of the top 15 small forwards in the NBA despite his injury last season. Lance (not surprisingly did not make the list for shooting guards). When Danny is healthy he is about as good as Luol Deng (better shooter, but not quite as good a defender) or Josh Smith. As the team has gotten better, Danny has gladly changed his game to fit in with the improvement of the rest of the team. He is one of the best shooters/scorers that the Pacers have had since I began watching them in '93. My top 5 favorite/most unstoppable Pacers scorers are in this order; Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Danny Granger, Rik Smits, and Jalen Rose. Danny should be remembered as one of the best Pacers players of all time. He is second all time in 3 pointers made for the Pacers and is in the top 10 for blocked shots. He is also a very good clutch shooter. If he stays healthy, there should be no debate who starts and finishes games. Lance is a good player. His speed, power, and ability to finish in transition is unmatched by anyone on the roster, but he can't shoot. He has no post up game. He has no mid range game. Danny is by far the better player and better fit for the starting unit. Lance should be very good off the bench, and I think that the Lance, Scola combo should be one heck of a good duo off the bench. Danny was injured for a year. Not dead. Watch basketball, people. Have a memory longer than one year.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's an interesting reply. I have to say that I love the idea of Lance as a 6th man in a playmaking role. I do want to see him assume a playmaking role. But what makes you think that he is a better playmaker than PG? Not attacking your idea, just wondering.
    PG is pretty good (not at the moment because of dubitable ball handling skills, but potentially). He has good court vision and is unselfish. Lance has all those things, but is exceptional with court vision. His ball handling skills are there already, although he needs a few reps in game time to perfect things.

    Lance is just a better playmaker.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Lance will start the season starting at the 2, but Granger hopefully will become comfortable again and be back in the starting 5 soon.
    "We want Miami"

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aeterp View Post
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    Danny Granger was the best player on our team for 5 years straight. Both him and Paul George are on USA Today's list of the top 15 small forwards in the NBA despite his injury last season. Lance (not surprisingly did not make the list for shooting guards). When Danny is healthy he is about as good as Luol Deng (better shooter, but not quite as good a defender) or Josh Smith. As the team has gotten better, Danny has gladly changed his game to fit in with the improvement of the rest of the team. He is one of the best shooters/scorers that the Pacers have had since I began watching them in '93. My top 5 favorite/most unstoppable Pacers scorers are in this order; Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Danny Granger, Rik Smits, and Jalen Rose. Danny should be remembered as one of the best Pacers players of all time. He is second all time in 3 pointers made for the Pacers and is in the top 10 for blocked shots. He is also a very good clutch shooter. If he stays healthy, there should be no debate who starts and finishes games. Lance is a good player. His speed, power, and ability to finish in transition is unmatched by anyone on the roster, but he can't shoot. He has no post up game. He has no mid range game. Danny is by far the better player and better fit for the starting unit. Lance should be very good off the bench, and I think that the Lance, Scola combo should be one heck of a good duo off the bench. Danny was injured for a year. Not dead. Watch basketball, people. Have a memory longer than one year.
    So you joined in Jan. of 2009 and that's your first post. Nice first post, join in more often.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Do you expect him to stop having issues with his back and calf? How many times coming in and out of the lineup is it going to take before you change your mind and cut bait?
    Wait a minute. We're already declaring his calf injury, and some back injury chronic?
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aeterp View Post
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    Danny Granger was the best player on our team for 5 years straight. Both him and Paul George are on USA Today's list of the top 15 small forwards in the NBA despite his injury last season.
    Yeah I found the USA today's lists and it looks like whoever is writing that has a thing for injured players, Nash is 14 in his point guard list, Rondo number 9 and we don't even know if he is coming back this year, Westbrook is number 7 and he is out for almost 2 months?, Drose number 3?.

    On the shooting guard list Wes Matthews is 14(who?) Eric Gordon number 8(lol), Manu 7? haha(and I love Manu), Kevin Martin 6(another joke).

    And on the small forward list he has Gordon Hayward 14(lol) and Danny 12(what a joke), so I'm sorry if I don't buy this bleacher report type of lists.

    edit: Oh crap I almost forgot about Kobe at number 3 and Wade at number 2 lol


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/
    Last edited by vnzla81; 10-22-2013 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I'm ready for Lance to start, just so we don't have to read the perpetual *****ing that is going to come along with Danny starting.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Lance is NOT a PG, per head coach Vogel's own words. Just sayin'...

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Lance is NOT a PG, per head coach Vogel's own words. Just sayin'...
    and George Hill is???

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    and George Hill is???
    One would have to think since that is where Frank is using him, the answer is "yes".
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Lance is NOT a PG, per head coach Vogel's own words. Just sayin'...
    Bird thinks he should play point guard. Just sayin' ...
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    PG is pretty good (not at the moment because of dubitable ball handling skills, but potentially). He has good court vision and is unselfish. Lance has all those things, but is exceptional with court vision. His ball handling skills are there already, although he needs a few reps in game time to perfect things.

    Lance is just a better playmaker.
    I see. I can agree that Lance's court vision is potentially better and that his handling is a bit more stable as well. But I don't think that he can create a shot for himself as good as PG can.

    Lance is certainly a good playmaker but I just think that PG could be a better shot-creator than him.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    At this point, I'm just going to wait and see what lineup Vogel puts on the floor, and then analyze it from there.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Bird thinks he should play point guard. Just sayin' ...
    He also thinks that George Hill is a better option than him. I doubt Bird would every specify point guard for any player because he makes a point to talk about the roster in terms of guards, wings, and bigs rather than specific positions. He probably wants him with the ball in his hands more. That sentiment's actually been mirrored by Vogel lately as well, and that's what's really important. What Bird thinks is really kind of moot because Vogel has the final say.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Danny is a far better player than Lance. Lance has a lot of potential, but he is still raw. Have a little loyalty for the man who was our best player for 5 years. If Reggie Miller was out for a season when Jalen Rose was coming on and showing potential, would you just chuck Reggie because Jalen was looking good? I sure wouldn't...and I know that Danny isn't quite Reggie Miller, but Lance Stephenson is nowhere near what was Jalen was (yet). Lance is still very raw. Very talented, but very raw. IMO, it all depends on Danny's health. A healthy Granger is far better than the players on the USA today list up until Luol Deng. Even then on a given night I give Granger a slight edge over Deng. Kawai Leonard? Come on...Rudy Gay? Yeah freaking right. Danny is our man if he is healthy. Danny bring a competitive fire, toughness, and clutch shooting that the starting unit needs. Lance will be a baller with the 2nd unit for sure...where he will be more effective with his skill set. Let's just all hope that Danny stays healthy and returns to form. That is the best case scenario for our team and for our chances to beat the Miami Leflops. Speaking of flops...I am getting really sick of Lance's theatrics and the lying on the floor for 10 minutes after someone hits his arm or head. Ridiculous. I like Danny because he plays the game the right way and doesn't back down from anyone.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I think I'd start Lance over Danny personally.

    At least with Lance and George starting together you'd have two guys that can handle the ball. I think I'd just let the situation determine who was the 1 and 2... I'd be good actually with Lance being the 1 most times and let George play the 2 ... with Paul, David and Roy we got three good scorers on the starting unit anyway but with Danny starting, while you may gain another reliable scoring option you're kinda sacrificing the ball handling with only G Hill really being any good at it.

    Now I think that Lance is a better ball handler than Hill but he still seems to lack the experience factor that Hill brings to the table, to me thats how it seems anyway. It's like, maybe he tries too hard to make the spectacular pass instead of the easy one and it leads to turnovers too often. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think he's probably our best ball handler but he makes some really boneheaded decisions that Hill doesn't usually make. Then again... I feel like Lance may be better able to deliver the ball to Roy in the post than Hill is. To me anyway, it seemed that last season, too often Roy would have good position only to have it wasted on our inability to get him the ball.

    Well I feel like I'm rambling on but my general feeling is that I'd have to at least start the season with a starting backcourt of Stephenson and Hill. I'd give it an opportunity and see how well it works. If we found that we were continually being outscored in the first quarter then it's easy to make the switch to Danny for the added scoring option.

    as always, just my .02

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Lance is NOT a PG, per head coach Vogel's own words. Just sayin'...
    Given the way the offense is run under Vogel....I don't think it really matters that Vogel doesn't consider Lance a PG. What I see is that PG/GH/Lance/Granger/CJ are the Playmakers that run the offense.

    If Lance is on the floor with the 2nd Unit...I can see him ending up as the Playmaker that creates offense for others.

    I'm honestly torn when it comes to who should Start and who should be the 1st Wing off the Bench. I prefer Lance as the Starter cuz I want consistency in the lineup and he's the healthier of the two.....however, I see that Lance is also a very good Playmaker where he can control the offense and create for others when he is on the floor. He won't do that as much with the Starters....but he will do that if he is the 1st Wing off the bench.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by aeterp View Post
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    Danny Granger was the best player on our team for 5 years straight. Both him and Paul George are on USA Today's list of the top 15 small forwards in the NBA despite his injury last season. Lance (not surprisingly did not make the list for shooting guards). When Danny is healthy he is about as good as Luol Deng (better shooter, but not quite as good a defender) or Josh Smith. As the team has gotten better, Danny has gladly changed his game to fit in with the improvement of the rest of the team. He is one of the best shooters/scorers that the Pacers have had since I began watching them in '93. My top 5 favorite/most unstoppable Pacers scorers are in this order; Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Danny Granger, Rik Smits, and Jalen Rose. Danny should be remembered as one of the best Pacers players of all time. He is second all time in 3 pointers made for the Pacers and is in the top 10 for blocked shots. He is also a very good clutch shooter. If he stays healthy, there should be no debate who starts and finishes games. Lance is a good player. His speed, power, and ability to finish in transition is unmatched by anyone on the roster, but he can't shoot. He has no post up game. He has no mid range game. Danny is by far the better player and better fit for the starting unit. Lance should be very good off the bench, and I think that the Lance, Scola combo should be one heck of a good duo off the bench. Danny was injured for a year. Not dead. Watch basketball, people. Have a memory longer than one year.
    Good post and welcome, but I think it's safe to say that the people commenting in this thread have seen nearly every game Danny has played in the NBA. Some just have different opinions on his game.

    I'd go with Lance as my starter, as I've stated before, but I can wait. I believe the plan is to sign him to a contract this offseason that matches the length of Paul's so they can grow together and eventually become one of the best duos in the league.

  31. #72
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Pros for starting Lance:
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game series

    Cons for starting Granger:
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game series
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Pros for starting Lance:
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game series

    Cons for starting Granger:
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game series
    Pros for DJ/Hans over CJ/Scola
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game Series

    Cons for CJ/Scola over DJ/Hans
    2012-13 ECF 7 Game Series

    See how stupid that argument is? Don't place team accomplishments to individuals who were just along for the ride. The difference between 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 was George, Hibbert, and playing the Heat in the ECF instead of semi-finals.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm ready for Lance to start, just so we don't have to read the perpetual *****ing that is going to come along with Danny starting.
    Agreed. Nobody else feels that strongly about Danny starting anyway...

    If I thought Danny would play at the level he was a few years ago, I think I might have a bit different opinion. But I don't believe a 30 year old player coming off knee surgery and missing the past season is likely to return to anything better than 85% the player he used to be. Michael Jordan couldn't even do it and he was healthy. Danny's already favoring that knee and the result is that he's hurting his back and calf...attempting to be mobile enough to play defense.

    Sure, I love Danny's J like every other Pacer fan. But I think people need to get beyond how many points he puts on the board and look at the entire package. Passing, defense and rebounding (which takes hops)...are also important aspects of the game. I believe Lance will have Danny beat in each of these categories this year...and defense is half the game. Considering Lance is healthy and Danny risks continuity...AND our team had the best defense in the NBA last season...the answer is clear. Lance starts. Use Danny to fill it up against backups.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Given the way the offense is run under Vogel....I don't think it really matters that Vogel doesn't consider Lance a PG. What I see is that PG/GH/Lance/Granger/CJ are the Playmakers that run the offense.

    If Lance is on the floor with the 2nd Unit...I can see him ending up as the Playmaker that creates offense for others.

    I'm honestly torn when it comes to who should Start and who should be the 1st Wing off the Bench. I prefer Lance as the Starter cuz I want consistency in the lineup and he's the healthier of the two.....however, I see that Lance is also a very good Playmaker where he can control the offense and create for others when he is on the floor. He won't do that as much with the Starters....but he will do that if he is the 1st Wing off the bench.
    I think Lance's playmaking abilities are being overestimated here. He can run the fast break like noone on our team and he can break his man down off that dribble. That is about it, those two things alone don't make you a play maker, and they definitely don't mean you can run an offense. I brought up Vogel's comments because he made them right after the Lance as the PG experiment failed horribly last season. His decision making just isn't there, and judging by Vogel's comments it never will be.

    Now whether that means he should start or Danny should start, I can't say. But you guys are trying to pigeon-hole Lance into a role he is ill-suited for, either being a play maker with the starters or on the bench. I'm a firm believer in the start your best players mantra, and I trust Vogel to figure out which player that is.

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