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Thread: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

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    Default Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    The aim of this thread is to provide the space for an in-depth discussion of the "Lance vs Danny" debate. I'd like to thank Hicks for the title and the idea, of course.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options




    Hey - where's the 'beating a dead horse' thing ??

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Allow me to express my opinion on this debate now.

    I feel that our 4 definite starters need to be our top 4 offensive options. Paul George will likely be the #1 option and Hibbert will probably be the #2 option. West will get his shots as PnP option or when PG or Hibbert are struggling offensively and we also need Hill to be aggressive and look for his shot at times so along with West they will probably alternate as our #3 and #4 option.

    That means that no matter if Danny or Lance is the one that gets the final nod as a starter, they will be the #5 option. So, let's see some pros and cons between them in that role from the top of my head (there are probably more pros and cons and you're free to add your own).

    Lance Pros:

    1) He already had a successful season as our #5 option in 12-13.

    2) His aggressiveness after a defensive rebound gives another dimension to our offense that no other player in our starting line-up can provide.

    Lance Cons:

    1) Not the best shooter in our roster and our power post offense requires good spacing.

    2) His shot-creating ability goes to waste when he plays off the ball.

    Granger Pros:

    1) One of the best shooters in our roster.

    2) He can play off the ball and provide spacing since opposing defenses respect his outside shot.

    Granger Cons:

    1) He has never played as a #5 option.

    Personally, I'm not sure if I prefer Granger or Lance at the starting line-up. Heck, I even entertain the idea of Solo Hill or OJ starting and bringing both Lance and Danny off the bench. I'm only sure about one thing.

    I want Lance to have the ball in his hands and create. That seems more probable if Lance comes off the bench in a Manu Ginobili role.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    What I was thinking 5 mins ago:

    Lance starts.. DG subs in for him and PG slides to the "2."

    Then I reallh did wonder, why? We have no true 2 guard worth their weight besides Lance
    (so george hill and CJ aren't shooting guards ever in my book, and Solo and OJ.. sorry but I don't have
    The faith yet.)

    In conclusion, I think starting Danny and bringing Lance off the bench for danny or paul and shifiting the remaining
    Starter of the 2 to the 3. It just seems to give us more options depending on game situations and gives Lance the opportunity
    To be the #1 or #2 facilitator at times. Thank you.

    Is it Oct. 29th yet?

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    The sum of my opinion on this: Either one works for me for different reasons, but for personal preference reasons I would choose Danny.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I think Lance fits better with both lineups. I love Danny, but I like what Lance brings to the table - he is the best playmaker on the team.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    If Danny is healthy and physically able (from a stamina standpoint) to play 70 plus games, then I say he should start. (of course how do we know now if he can do that) If it doesn't appear that Danny is going to play 30 minutes a game for most of the games, then he should be brought off the bench. It is important to have a stable starting 5.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-21-2013 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    When Danny is spacing the floor and hitting 3s (has shown glimpses in the pre-season), there is no better player for our starting line-up.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If Danny is healthy and physically able (from a stamina standpoint) to play 70 plus games, then I say he should start. (of course how do we know now if he can do that) If it doesn't appear that Danny is going to play 30 minutes a game for most of the games, then he should be brought off the bench. It is important to have a stable starting 5.
    I disagree unless they're willing to let Lance handle the ball more with the starters out there or if Lance can hit the corner 3 at a 40% clip. Playing Granger with the starters and Lance with the bench unit allows both of them to play more to their strengths. Especially since Frank seems inclined to let Lance share PG duties with Watson in the 2nd unit. Even if Granger can only play 40 games, the offense will have adjusted to making the fifth starter spot clearly the fifth option offensively. Both Lance and Granger will know what to do defensively.

    You start who you want to be in the starting lineup in the playoffs from the start and make changes if necessary.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    1. I think Lance should be the primary playmaker for the starting unit. That won't happen, but I list it for the record. PG is good at times, but he's not as good as Lance at playmaking and he struggles with turnovers.

    2. Therefore, I prefer Lance in the second unit to serve as a playmaker instead of being the 5th option for the starters. Except for ....

    3. The starting unit tends to also be the finishing unit. If Lance is 6th man, he won't have as much burn with the other four starters. I think Lance's contribution are critical for the end of games. As we saw last year, sometimes Vogel deliberately puts the ball in Lance's hands at the end of games because, when defenses really clamp down, Hill and PG struggle.

    4. But if Lance finishes, then who doesn't? This is where Vogel will earn his pay.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If Danny is healthy and physically able (from a stamina standpoint) to play 70 plus games, then I say he should start. (of course how do we know now if he can do that) If it doesn't appear that Danny is going to play 30 minutes a game for most of the games and could ( for health reasons ) end up missing 1 out of every 4 games, then he should be brought off the bench. It is important to have a stable starting 5.
    This.....along with my own addition to your comments...is the main reason why I would want Granger as the 1st Wing off the bench and split his minutes with the Starters and 2nd Unit. I want a stable and consistent lineup where Players build chemistry and familiarity with a certain set of Players.

    The only real reason why I would want Lance to be the 1st Wing off the Bench and where Lance splits time with both units is because he's a much better Playmaker with the 2nd unit ( which doesn't really have one ). Play Lance with Scola, Copeland/Solo and CJ....all capable scorers where Lance draws the defense...and we're good.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I'll go ahead and get myself in trouble here (Will I ever learn?). The only pre-season game the Pacers have won is the game Granger did not play in. So..............

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    you can't colour the topic??? surely this is green??
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    It depends on what you want out of your starting 5. If you want your 5 best guys to start, then Lance should start. If you want an impact player to come off the bench, than you start Danny
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    you can't colour the topic??? surely this is green??
    I tried to put a humorous picture emoticon with the post, but my flash player wasn't working and I could not tell one of them from another. I'll try again
    Yes, it was supposed to be (true, but) funny.

    EDIT: I just tried viewing the emoticon again, and all I see are little boxes. No pictures. Even updated my flash.
    Last edited by Tom White; 10-21-2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I tried to put a humorous picture emoticon with the post, but my flash player wasn't working and I could not tell one of them from another. I'll try again
    Yes, it was supposed to be (true, but) funny.

    EDIT: I just tried viewing the emoticon again, and all I see are little boxes. No pictures. Even updated my flash.
    I'm not for certain, but I think Able is talking about the thread title, not your post. It's just a topic that has been run into the ground. In fact, it seems like it emerges in every thread regardless of the original topic.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Lance should start because Lance is the healthier player.

    Lance is also the better shot creator.

    In 2013 Lance is the better defender.

    In 2013 Lance is the better rebounder.

    Letting the starters and the bench get familiar is also important for the regular season and playoffs, switching players for the hell of it is just not the smart thing to do.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Advantages Granger:
    Most diverse scorer on the team
    When healthy he will be at worst the second best scorer on the team
    Can guard bigger SFs in the post
    Is much more respected by opposing teams defenses(see Dwight doubling him in the post)
    Good spot up shooter, spreads the defense

    Advantages Lance:
    Better handles and passing
    Can defend faster, quicker guards
    Great at pushing the fast break


    Simply put Danny is the better player(it is honestly laughable that some people actually think Lance is the better player right now when he has never done anything to suggest as much) and the better fit for the starters. Lance is flashier, but not really starter material. What he is good at can really be taken advantage of off the bench, as a change of pace player, and creating for the other back-ups. He is a "playmaker", but not really a shooter or a scorer in the half court. Although he shouldn't have any problem breaking down other teams back-ups and finding the open guy (Scola) for some easy baskets. I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either of them off the bench, but I think Granger's abilities mesh better with the starters as well someone like Lebron won't be able to cheat off of Granger like he did with Lance.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Advantages Granger:
    Most diverse scorer on the team
    When healthy he will be at worst the second best scorer on the team
    Can guard bigger SFs in the post
    Is much more respected by opposing teams defenses(see Dwight doubling him in the post)
    Good spot up shooter, spreads the defense

    Advantages Lance:
    Better handles and passing
    Can defend faster, quicker guards
    Great at pushing the fast break


    Simply put Danny is the better player(it is honestly laughable that some people actually think Lance is the better player right now when he has never done anything to suggest as much) and the better fit for the starters. Lance is flashier, but not really starter material. What he is good at can really be taken advantage of off the bench, as a change of pace player, and creating for the other back-ups. He is a "playmaker", but not really a shooter or a scorer in the half court. Although he shouldn't have any problem breaking down other teams back-ups and finding the open guy (Scola) for some easy baskets. I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either of them off the bench, but I think Granger's abilities mesh better with the starters as well someone like Lebron won't be able to cheat off of Granger like he did with Lance.
    It seems like a popular belief is that Lance didn't wow us the entire season because he was forced into being our fifth offensive option and our third or fourth ballhandler, thus preventing him from being a star. It seems much more likely to me that he was put into those positions because he wasn't good enough to demand more than that.

    With that said, he most definitely is starter material but we would be able to use more of his developing skills as a main ballhandler in the second unit. I think having another shooter in the starting unit is important. So I would be happy with Granger starting or even starting Orlando and playing him 8-10 minutes a night. With that third shooter, it's going to be hard to double anybody on our team.

    I really liked the combo of Stephenson and Granger from what I saw in the preseason though. So having a fifth "dummy" starter wouldn't necessarily be bad. Chicago did it with great success with Bogans a couple years ago.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Admins, just an fyi, the system is creating a bunch of double posts right now (see Eleazar above--and it's happened to me several times). When you click "Post quick reply" it returns to the same screen. When you click it again it posts twice.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    I like lance in the second unit because it allows him to be the primary playmaker, regardless of his talent level and every he brings to the table he's going to be the 5th option with the starters. I like the advantage that lance will have going against other teams benches. If lance and Scola can get a rhythm it may lead to a bigger impact than "starting"

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Has anyone esle noticed the chemistry that the 1st unit built last year ?? With Lance suddenly going from somewhere on the bench to an important starting role ??

    And people really want to mess with that ?? Your starters are your starters. They don't sit out on the 2nd game of back-to-backs. You don't yank Lance around by starting him here, benching him there - all because Granger can't hack it. Keep the starting 5 intact, let Granger come off the bench and find his place on this team. If he can - GREAT. If not, his expiring is valuable come January or so.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Admins, just an fyi, the system is creating a bunch of double posts right now (see Eleazar above--and it's happened to me several times). When you click "Post quick reply" it returns to the same screen. When you click it again it posts twice.
    Aren't you used with it by now? I mean I know it shows that error page or whatever but I also know my piece has already been posted.
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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Has anyone esle noticed the chemistry that the 1st unit built last year ?? With Lance suddenly going from somewhere on the bench to an important starting role ??

    And people really want to mess with that ?? Your starters are your starters. They don't sit out on the 2nd game of back-to-backs. You don't yank Lance around by starting him here, benching him there - all because Granger can't hack it. Keep the starting 5 intact, let Granger come off the bench and find his place on this team. If he can - GREAT. If not, his expiring is valuable come January or so.
    Has anybody noticed the chemistry that the 1st unit built before Granger was lost to injury?

    And you want to mess with that while forcing a guy to lose his starting job because of injury? It can go both ways

    Vogel has treated both guys like incumbent starters without a mention of which one has to fight to make the starting unit. And I fail to see where we would be yanking Lance around by making him go back to the bench. If he's on the bench, he's the 6th man who probably starts if Granger misses a game. And as for starters sitting out back to backs? You should tell Gregg Popovich or Doc Rivers that sitting starters for rest is just not something you do.

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    Default Re: Official "Danny or Lance should start" Thread: Pros and Cons and Indiana's Offensive Options

    A few notable exceptions aside--we all know the pros and cons of both players and what they bring to the table as a starter and as a 6th man. So as opposed to focusing on the pros and cons, I wanted to go a different route and focus on which role best utilizes each players strength's.

    Lance is the 5th option offensively as a starter. His touches will continue to come from backdoor cuts (one of the tops in the league in points that were assisted last season), open court plays, and occasional spot ball handling duties within the half court. Although we only have pre-season as proof, this seems to be the way Vogel thinks is the best way to utilize Lance with the starters.

    If Lance were to come off the bench, he's obviously the primary ball handler. He also will have more freedom to make plays or make mistakes (again from what we've seen in the preseason) The fact that he likes to play at a faster pace also suits the second unit a bit more IMO--but I see the argument of having that wild card in the starting line-up.

    Whether Granger starts or not, we've seen during the preseason that his role will be close to the same in either case. As a starter he was clearly a secondary offensive option on the perimeter. He received a few set plays to get him the ball on the move which allowed him to either get to the basket, the FT line, an open mid range J, or a pass back out. He was also utilized as a floor spacer who benefited from open looks from 3 due to the attention our bigs and PG receive.

    As a reserve we pretty much run the same sets that I mentioned before, just with different personnel. The one difference here is that Danny looked to score a little more with this unit whereas he would look to make an extra pass if available when playing with the starters.

    I think it works either way for both players to be honest--though I do feel being able to unleash Lance off the bench is best.

    FWIW if Granger ends up having minor injury issues during the season., I could see Vogel deciding to simply start Lance for continuity sake.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 10-21-2013 at 05:56 PM.

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