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Thread: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Your idea would create Super teams and the teams that suck won't have the chance to get better, giving all 14 teams the same odds as I'm suggesting stops teams for trying to be the worse they can be like the Bobcats, Phoenix and Sixers this year, the only thing I don't like about my suggestion is that is going to create a lot of mediocre teams like Milwaukee.
    I agree giving them all the same odds is the best way.
    I don't agree with the idea that it will make more mediocre teams, infact it will lift alot of teams out of purgatory every year. If you have a 40 win team that just missed the playoffs and is has lot of bad contracts or is in cap hell, getting a top 5 pick might just elevate them into the playoffs. Some teams may never get out of purgatory, but that happens already. But that system would ensure that each team tries maximize what they already have. One thing it would do is create a tanking problem for the last couple weeks of the season as certain teams will deem making the playoffs as a setback if they know their roster is basically crap.
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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    It wasn't really an idea, it was more a comment on the system. Teams will tank as long as there is a benefit to losing. In the current system, if you are a bottom 3 team you are guaranteed at absolute worst the sixth pick in the draft. Changing the odds wouldn't change that, and teams would still tank.

    Personally, I don't see what the big deal in tanking is. If you want to throw the late-lottery teams a bone, you could just invert the 2nd round selections so the 14th team gets the 1st pick in the 2nd round, the 13th gets the 2nd, etc.
    That's my point there won't be a benefit if you give all 14 teams the same odds, why would a team aim for the worse record if they know they are probably not going to even get a top 10 pick?

    Again my suggestions is to 1st, give all 14 teams the same odds and 2nd, have all 14 teams in the lottery, the only downside I see is that mediocre teams are going to be formed but I guess is better than having 10 garbage teams every year.

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    I think they should make them play for it.

    Take the bottom 8 teams at the end of the year and put them into a single-elimination playoff. Winner gets the #1 pick, 8th place gets the 8th pick.

    The media gets their drama, the league gets a little more revenue. It would be totally silly but I'd find it more entertaining than the other options being discussed... :-P

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    That's my point there won't be a benefit if you give all 14 teams the same odds, why would a team aim for the worse record if they know they are probably not going to even get a top 10 pick?

    Again my suggestions is to 1st, give all 14 teams the same odds and 2nd, have all 14 teams in the lottery, the only downside I see is that mediocre teams are going to be formed but I guess is better than having 10 garbage teams every year.
    I think the opposite would be more likely to happen; I think you would see more bad teams unable to climb up. Teams wouldn't tank, but you also wouldn't help out the truly bad teams. Charlotte hasn't been able to improve with top rate draft picks. How well do you think they would do if their average draft position was 7 instead of 2 or 3? I think it fixes one problem and creates a bigger one.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by rabid View Post
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    I think they should make them play for it.

    Take the bottom 8 teams at the end of the year and put them into a single-elimination playoff. Winner gets the #1 pick, 8th place gets the 8th pick.

    The media gets their drama, the league gets a little more revenue. It would be totally silly but I'd find it more entertaining than the other options being discussed... :-P
    This would actually promote tanking (by purposefully losing, not by creating a terrible roster) in the regular season. They would be at a competitive advantage over the actually bad teams.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    This would actually promote tanking (by purposefully losing, not by creating a terrible roster) in the regular season. They would be at a competitive advantage over the actually bad teams.
    Not only that, but you'd be giving the "best" bad team the opportunity to draft the best player, leaving the real cellar dwelling teams SOL.
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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I think the opposite would be more likely to happen; I think you would see more bad teams unable to climb up. Teams wouldn't tank, but you also wouldn't help out the truly bad teams. Charlotte hasn't been able to improve with top rate draft picks. How well do you think they would do if their average draft position was 7 instead of 2 or 3? I think it fixes one problem and creates a bigger one.
    Charlotte hasn't improved with all their top picks because they can't draft well. Additionally no good veteran players want to play there because they are so bad. If every team had an equal shot then that would also improve every teams chances at landing good free agents. To get good it takes good drafting and acquiring good vets to compliment your young players. Just like the Pacers and David West.
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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not only that, but you'd be giving the "best" bad team the opportunity to draft the best player, leaving the real cellar dwelling teams SOL.
    The Pacers drafted the best player from the 2010 draft with Paul George, opportunity doesn't not guarantee getting the best player.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The Pacers drafted the best player from the 2010 draft with Paul George, opportunity doesn't not guarantee getting the best player.
    That's obvious, but it still doesn't change the fact that you're essentially giving the best team out of the worst dibs on whatever player they'd like. That idea will never fly with the competition committee.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    It would just create another tanking problem. Teams who are not championship contenders but would still make the playoffs would tank to be in the lottery if there were equal odds to nab the best player in the draft.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Charlotte hasn't improved with all their top picks because they can't draft well. Additionally no good veteran players want to play there because they are so bad. If every team had an equal shot then that would also improve every teams chances at landing good free agents. To get good it takes good drafting and acquiring good vets to compliment your young players. Just like the Pacers and David West.
    It wouldn't improve every team's chance. Specifically it would improve the chances of the teams that are somewhat near the playoffs. The terrible teams would not only get a worse draft pick on average, they would get even fewer quality free agents.

    Not only that, this doesn't penalize tanking. It stops it from happening. What's more important, making sure bad teams get all the help they can get or stopping mediocre teams from becoming "bad teams" for draft picks? The same exact teams you're trying to stop tanking are the same teams that are going to benefit from this proposed system. They won't be tanking, sure, but only because it's not beneficial to do so anymore.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    When will the Pacers play their first game with 12 or less turnovers? My bet is early December.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Call me crazy but I believe if you take top picks from the Bobcats, Cleveland and Minnesota they will actually get better, having a top 5 pick every year makes teams lazy is like they don't care to scout anymore.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Call me crazy but I believe if you take top picks from the Bobcats, Cleveland and Minnesota they will actually get better, having a top 5 pick every year makes teams lazy is like they don't care to scout anymore.
    ...given that there are more choices in top top 5, not less, that makes no sense...

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...given that there are more choices in top top 5, not less, that makes no sense...
    Sure but what have those teams done with those choices though? Cleveland got Kirie because everybody knew he was the first pick but what have they done after that? what about the Bobcats? maybe MJ decides that he needs better scouts? I don't think is a coincidence that those teams get top picks every year and don't know what to do with it.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    It isn't because they lack scouts, it's because the GM doesn't make proper decisions based on the info he is given.

    Was Anthony Bennett a no brainer pick last summer?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It isn't because they lack scouts, it's because the GM doesn't make proper decisions based on the info he is given.

    Was Anthony Bennett a no brainer pick last summer?
    I don't think so.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Sure but what have those teams done with those choices though? Cleveland got Kirie because everybody knew he was the first pick but what have they done after that? what about the Bobcats? maybe MJ decides that he needs better scouts? I don't think is a coincidence that those teams get top picks every year and don't know what to do with it.
    So you think that letting teams that do a better job of scouting pick before them would help them pick the right player?

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    So you think that letting teams that do a better job of scouting pick before them would help them pick the right player?
    I think that reducing the numbers of choices can make them better at scouting(for the teams that are always top 5).

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think that reducing the numbers of choices can make them better at scouting(for the teams that are always top 5).
    This is crazy.

    These teams sacrifice entire seasons for high draft picks, and you think that's making them value them less?

    You really think teams that don't draft well in the lottery simply don't care about scouting?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think that reducing the numbers of choices can make them better at scouting(for the teams that are always top 5).
    First off, the teams you mention got their #1 picks not by being the worst team but by winning the lottery. The Bobcats on the other hand never got a #1 pick because they lost the lottery.

    Secondly, it's why you limit the number of times a team can get the high pick within a certain time period. It makes it bad business to just try to sell tickets by having the current flavor-of-the-month hype guy without really trying to win games.

    Finally, even with a good team winning a championship takes a lot of things to go right. People rag on Cleveland for not getting a championship with LBJ but they were in the hunt a lot of those years when he was there, and they didn't just sit on their rear ends and try to feed off the hype. They tried to make some moves that ultimately didn't work out.

    If a system was so fair that every team won the championship one year, you'd still be looking at teams going 29 YEARS between championships. That's why "Championship or you suck" fandom confuses me immensely. If a team can consistently get to the final 4 or even the final 8 in the NBA, I think that's a team worth watching. While the GOAL should always be the championship, there are just too many things that can go wonky to prevent it. PLAYERS should never be satisfied. FANS should learn to enjoy themselves.
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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I still don't think it's as big of a problem as everyone says it is.

    I mean- everyone keeps complaining about tanking but it's astounding how many teams are NOT tanking in what Bill Simmons called the most loaded draft since 1984.

    Is it REALLY a problem?? Tanking teams give up assets, making other teams stronger- when teams are much more willing to trade, it makes it easier for teams to re-arrange their rosters for potentially good to great teams- There are at least 6 great teams in the NBA right now. Normally there is usually about 3 great teams that you can see compete for a championship.

    Not only are there 6 great teams, there are at least 9 other teams that have the makings of a future powerhouse. There's a lot of teams with bright futures now, the league is as competitive as it has ever been.

    I don't think tanking is a problem.
    Tanking isn't a problem on November 1st.

    But just wait until March 1st. Teams will know 2 things on March 1st.

    1. Whether this draft is as loaded as everyone says it is.
    2. Whether they have a realistic shot at making the playoffs.

    If this draft is as good as everyone seems to think it might be, then you're going to see some teams doing weird things to ensure they get the best opportunity at a top player. Look at Golden State in 2012. That worked out great for them.

    And I'll make this personal. Charlotte gets the Pistons pick unless it's in the top 8. I don't think the Pistons will keep that pick unless they have some major injury problems. But if they do, and on March 1st they're in a position where they can't make the playoffs, they ABSOLUTELY should start playing Peyton Siva, Tony Mitchell, Josh Harrellson, and Gigi Datome 35 minutes a night.

    One rule the NBA should implement is getting rid of protected picks in the middle of the lottery. It's either top 14 or top 3 (2 or 1), not top 10, top 8, top 7, etc. That's led to the most blatant forms of tanking in the NBA.
    UncleBuck:

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    I've changed my mind on the lottery thing.

    Just let all bottom 14 teams have an even crack at the top 3. I wouldn't even mind if they expanded the lottery to top-5, just to take away incentive for teams looking to be dead last to guarantee them a top-5 pick.

    After that, go by record. If the Bobcats go 9-73 and wind up drafting 6th, even in this deep draft, no one will ever tank again. Winning 20-25 games every year will guarantee you nothing substantial, except a dead franchise.

    I guarantee you this will kill tanking, outside of the last week or so when even one spot in the 6-12 range is worth dropping a few extra games. Of course, we see a lot of good teams tanking games at that time too to keep guys fresh, so it isn't like that will be anything new.

    I promise you this, no franchise will plan to tank a full season for the 6th pick in any draft and a 7% chance at moving up.
    Last edited by Kstat; 11-01-2013 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    I've changed my mind on the lottery thing.

    Just let all bottom 14 teams have an even crack at the top 3. I wouldn't even mind if they expanded the lottery to top-5, just to take away incentive for teams looking to be dead last to guarantee them a top-5 pick.

    After that, go by record. If the Bobcats go 9-73 and wind up drafting 6th, even in this deep draft, no one will ever tank again. Winning 20-25 games every year will guarantee you nothing substantial, except a dead franchise.

    I guarantee you this will kill tanking, outside of the last week or so when even one spot in the 6-12 range is worth dropping a few extra games. Of course, we see a lot of good teams tanking games at that time too to keep guys fresh, so it isn't like that will be anything new.

    I promise you this, no franchise will plan to tank a full season for the 6th pick in any draft and a 7% chance at moving up.
    Again, the problem is that you are punishing the tanking teams without doing anything to help the team who goes into rebuilding, gets a major FA who then goes down with an injury. Once they start losing and no one wants to go there, how do they dig out when they lose the lottery every year and end up with a #14 pick every time?

    You've really got to give the teams that get hit hard by circumstances - especially the ones who labor under other handicaps, like a lack of revenue and a small market - a way to get out that isn't just luck. As much as it is like to think that there should be 30 genius GMs out there who can build bricks without straw, that's unrealistic. A decently competent GM should have more options than just luck and overspending on FAs.
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    Default Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Again, the problem is that you are punishing the tanking teams without doing anything to help the team who goes into rebuilding, gets a major FA who then goes down with an injury. Once they start losing and no one wants to go there, how do they dig out when they lose the lottery every year and end up with a #14 pick every time?

    You've really got to give the teams that get hit hard by circumstances - especially the ones who labor under other handicaps, like a lack of revenue and a small market - a way to get out that isn't just luck. As much as it is like to think that there should be 30 genius GMs out there who can build bricks without straw, that's unrealistic. A decently competent GM should have more options than just luck and overspending on FAs.
    Sorry, that logic is how San Antonio gets Tim Duncan after one bad luck year following eight 50+ win seasons in a row.

    Injuries suck, but it's just one season. Do your scouting, draft a sleeper in the 6-10 range and get back at it next year.

    And please spare me the poor small market revenue excuse. The new CBA virtually guarantees any NBA team to run at a substantial profit so long as they stay away from the LT. I would have bought that argument three years ago; now any owner that claims otherwise is either being cheap, greedy or both.
    Last edited by Kstat; 11-01-2013 at 01:57 PM.

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