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The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

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  • #46
    Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

    Originally posted by immortality View Post
    It's probably why Kobe is one of the best scorers during their second finals run. He was 51% from the elbow range.
    Jordan was the best example. His ability to post up on the baseline and the elbow is what turned his 20-point nights into 30-point nights.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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    • #47
      Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

      Originally posted by Kstat View Post
      Mid range shots are much more likely to draw fouls and offensive rebounds than threes. Maybe not 20 feet, but the 8-12 foot range is very valuable.
      Is there a record anywhere of shooting fouls drawn from various spots on the floor or distances from the rim?

      What about offensive rebounds off of misses from various spots or distances?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

        Originally posted by Hicks View Post
        Is there a record anywhere of shooting fouls drawn from various spots on the floor or distances from the rim?

        What about offensive rebounds off of misses from various spots or distances?
        If there is, it isn't public record.

        That said, the greatest player in league history made his living in the 12-15 foot range. It's hard not to notice a shooting guard that isn't a great perimeter shooter averaging 30 points a game on 50% shooting over a 15-year span. The last few years his athletic superiority was gone, and he was still scoring at the same clip because he could dominate a game from the block as easily as he used to dominate it attacking the rim.

        During Chicago's championship run, Jordan attempted his most FTs In 1998, at age 34, and I can guarantee he wasn't getting to the rim as often.

        Kobe certainly noticed. He remains a top-5 nba player at age 35 because he dominates the mid-range.

        People argue that jump shooters don't draw fouls, but after you've been backed down and had two or three turnaround jumpers rained in over your head, he may as well be standing directly underneath the rim. It's almost impossible as a defender not to commit fouls at that point.
        Last edited by Kstat; 10-16-2013, 07:52 AM.

        It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

        Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
        Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
        NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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        • #49
          Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

          Originally posted by Kstat View Post
          He's absolutely right. It took me longer than usual to come up with that one. Every year it gets more difficult.
          Next year should be easy. "Year 11: Turning It Up a Notch"
          BillS

          A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
          Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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          • #50
            Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

            Originally posted by BillS View Post
            Next year should be easy. "Year 11: Turning It Up a Notch"
            Year 11: This is Spinal Tap?

            Btw, I don't think using Jordan or Kobe as examples really prove anything. You can very well look at Durant's percentages from midrange and conclude that midrange shots are efficient. Or look at Steph Curry's and wonder why the whole league isn't raining 3's left and right.

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            • #51
              Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

              Originally posted by BillS View Post
              Next year should be easy. "Year 11: Turning It Up a Notch"
              On a related note, I was really close to doing a Pearl jam theme this year. First cd I ever purchased, and first concert I ever attended. It just didn't mesh with this season, though. It's gotta mesh.

              It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

              Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
              Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
              NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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              • #52
                Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                Originally posted by wintermute View Post
                Year 11: This is Spinal Tap?

                Btw, I don't think using Jordan or Kobe as examples really prove anything. You can very well look at Durant's percentages from midrange and conclude that midrange shots are efficient. Or look at Steph Curry's and wonder why the whole league isn't raining 3's left and right.
                Except curry and Durant aren't 35 years old...

                The point was never that Jordan and Kobe were mid-range killers. The point was that as non-bigs, they were/are able to dominate games at an advanced age and an athletic disadvantage, because of their ability to use the midrange game and consistently draw fouls 8-12 feet from the rim, which is less a test of athleticism and more of a chess match.

                I can find a lot of scoring guards that make their living launching threes, albeit with varying degrees of success. Find me a lot of scorers that make their living in the post 8-12 feet from the rim. Show me the role player that can take his defender in the high post, back him in and shoot over the top. You can't. It's a specialized skill that's extremely hard to learn, but the guys that do are all-stars.
                Last edited by Kstat; 10-16-2013, 09:23 AM.

                It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                  Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                  Mid range shots are much more likely to draw fouls and offensive rebounds than threes. Maybe not 20 feet, but the 8-12 foot range is very valuable.
                  That sounds right, and I would have guessed that you were correct through my own instincts and observations.

                  But it actually isn't. NBA teams in general rebound 40% of their three point misses vs. 33% of their mid range shots. Not a gigantic difference, but the idea that mid range shots are rebounded more often is untrue and is one of the key points in the philosophy that mid range jumpers are highly inefficient for all but maybe 50 players in the NBA.
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                  • #54
                    Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                    Originally posted by FlavaDave View Post
                    That sounds right, and I would have guessed that you were correct through my own instincts and observations.

                    But it actually isn't. NBA teams in general rebound 40% of their three point misses vs. 33% of their mid range shots. Not a gigantic difference, but the idea that mid range shots are rebounded more often is untrue and is one of the key points in the philosophy that mid range jumpers are highly inefficient for all but maybe 50 players in the NBA.
                    I'd argue that it's because modern players simply aren't very good at it, and many mid range shots now are afterthoughts, as opposed to go-to shots.

                    In addition, if you're a really good post guard, you're going to collapse a defense simply by posting up. Problem is we only have a few of those guys in the nba right now.

                    I'd add that of the top ten teams in the nba last season in attempting threes, nine of them ranked in the bottom half of the nba in offensive rebounding (the lone exception being the lakers at 14th) including three of the bottom five.
                    Last edited by Kstat; 10-16-2013, 09:37 AM.

                    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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                    • #55
                      Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                      Not only can you look at individual players, but also the league as a whole. Scoring before the 3pt line was higher than it is now. They've not only added the 3pt line, and gotten less scoring, they've also tightened the rules against defenses to make scoring easier and scoring still went down.

                      I agree with P4E that a lot of coaches don't like shooting midrange shots, and they discourage them. Look no further for reasons why percentages are down and midrange shots aren't efficient.
                      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                      • #56
                        Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                        Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                        I'd argue that it's because modern players simply aren't very good at it, and many mid range shots now are afterthoughts, as opposed to go-to shots.

                        In addition, if you're a really good post guard, you're going to collapse a defense simply by posting up. Problem is we only have a few of those guys in the nba right now.
                        One of those "chicken or the egg" things - which came first, the degeneration of skills or the change in offensive philosophy?

                        I think that the decline of the mid-range jumper came first, because in a flashy AAU/street ball world the midrange doesn't get noticed like attacking the rim or swishing a 3-pointer. Given that, defenses stopped worrying about it and offenses stopped working on recovering from a mid-range miss.

                        That said, I think the telling difference might be to look not just at defensive vs. offensive rebounds but look at points from those rebounds. A defensive rebound from a hard 3-point miss would seem to lead to quick points more often than a defensive rebound of a mid-range, while an offensive rebound of the same miss would find the defense still pretty much in position.
                        BillS

                        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                        Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                          Originally posted by BillS View Post
                          One of those "chicken or the egg" things - which came first, the degeneration of skills or the change in offensive philosophy?

                          I think that the decline of the mid-range jumper came first, because in a flashy AAU/street ball world the midrange doesn't get noticed like attacking the rim or swishing a 3-pointer. Given that, defenses stopped worrying about it and offenses stopped working on recovering from a mid-range miss.

                          That said, I think the telling difference might be to look not just at defensive vs. offensive rebounds but look at points from those rebounds. A defensive rebound from a hard 3-point miss would seem to lead to quick points more often than a defensive rebound of a mid-range, while an offensive rebound of the same miss would find the defense still pretty much in position.
                          I don't think teams practice to rebound mid range shots, I just think players usually take them as second and third options, because they aren't comfortable with them, and defenses don't respect them. Now, a guy that can post in the mid range will create more offensive rebounds because eventually, guys will be out of position.

                          You could go back 30 years when three point percentages were awful, because players simply weren't comfortable launching from 24 feet out. The three was the shot defenses wanted to force you into taking.

                          It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                          Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                          Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                          NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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                          • #58
                            Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                            Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                            I'd add that of the top ten teams in the nba last season in attempting threes, nine of them ranked in the bottom half of the nba in offensive rebounding (the lone exception being the lakers at 14th) including three of the bottom five.
                            Not sure of your source, but you are missing Brooklyn and the Clippers. Both were top ten in 3 point attempts per game and offensive rebounding rate. Still, the point stands. That's only three out of ten.

                            It is also worth noting that, out of the 10 teams that attempted the most mid range shots, only 5 were in the top half of the league in offensive rebounding rate.
                            The Miller Time Podcast on 8 Points, 9 Seconds:
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                            • #59
                              Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                              My season ticket relationship with the Pacers is off to a rocky start. My GF gets an email this morning reminding us that we have tickets to tonights game. Huh? She forwards the email to me, and sure enough, we have tickets. I log into our ticket account page, and the first thing that I see is that we've paid half of our total invoice so far. News to me, I thought I only paid the initial downpayment. We had asked when we should receive the payment plan, and were told that it wouldn't be until the season started. Good thing I had the money in my account. (obviously you can tell that I'm really good at keeping my account balanced) I'm actually relieved that it's getting paid, but then I notice the real problem......

                              WE DON'T HAVE TICKETS TO OPENNING NIGHT! Tickets for tonight are listed, tickets for the Cavs game on Nov 2 is listed, tickets for the Bulls game on Nov 6 is listed, tickets against the Grizz on Nov 11 is listed, but nothing for Oct 29 against the Magic.

                              Now I'm pissed.

                              EDIT: Wow, that was fast customer service. Something about a computer quirk with the tickets, said that we should be able to view/print the tickets for opening night after next Monday but he confirmed we do have them. Crisis averted.
                              Last edited by Since86; 10-16-2013, 10:45 AM.
                              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                              • #60
                                Re: The 10th NBA Random Thoughts thread 2013-2014: Coveting Miami's Crown

                                Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post


                                That is not a new system almost every coach preaches that. Stan Van Gundy's system is based on that(I still LOL at his video's speaking at the SLOAN conference the guy is so anti mid range. He said he was thrilled in ORL that his personal sucked from mid range. I agree with Stan the mid range shot is awful in most circumstances. It is nice to have to keep defenders off balance but I would never encourage it)

                                Hell I was at Xavier's practice last week and that is there approach on defense. No 3s and no paint(they are a packline team which is a concept many NBA teams use). It isn't a new concept I highly doubt teams change much from what they have done in the past. How the Pacers play defense isnt any thing special Xs and 0s wise. They just have the horses to play defense at a high level and they stay committed.

                                Yes the packline defense is not an innovative set by the Pacers. I can see where my statement could suggest that. Maybe every coach preaches the defense, but few practice it. If teams really wanted to shut down the inside would they put Christ Bosh at center? Melo at PF?

                                If coaches really wanted to stop dribble penetration and closeout on shooters would the play their chuckers over defensive stoppers?

                                And the reason why midrange shots are awful is because it is a lost art. Go back and watch the 1986 finals . Midrange shooters are deadly. Dennis Johnson knew that he wasn't a shooter took two hard dribbles in and knocked it down.

                                Tell Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan that the midrange game is awful. Sure some people aren't good at it. But we have not developed that part of the game. Instead they are content with shooting from three and over penetrating. There is a reason turnover rates are higher now. We are content with over dribbling into defenses and hitting that corner three so much that sinking defenses pick it off.

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