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Thread: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    So you're admitting everything you said earlier is WRONG, and now you're changing your argument to suggest Paul and Lance are simply the most talented??
    Nope.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    I like Lance in the starting unit because his defense and rebounding at this point(2013 not 2006) is better than Danny, I want the starting unit to be strong and only have one defensive weakness instead of two(David West).

    I also believe that Paul George is our super star and I don't want him to spend time chasing around Danny's guy because Danny can't guard him, Lance makes Paul George's job easier on that side of the court in my opinion.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Also, from what I gather, Lance is better than David West, Roy Hibbert, and George Hill? amirite?
    He's not a finished product. Also, his comment was clearly directed at Granger...as was my own. But to that point, given time Lance will be better than George Hill.

    Edit: Notice I didn't say Lance is better than Granger. He just has more potential and with Danny at half-mast he's better than Danny. Defense is half the game and play making is another chunk of it. Also, Lance is more talented than George Hill....not necessarily as developed yet...but his ceiling is certainly higher.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-20-2013 at 05:58 PM.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Can you give me an example of when Lance defended the better player and PG defended the bigger player???

    Also, Granger defended Wade a lot last time Granger and PG were on the court together against the champs...
    Normally the better player in the east is the bigger one. Look at who we faced in the east and tell me who Lance guarded: LeBron > DWade. Melo > JR Smith. Josh Smith > Devin Harris/Kyle Korver/Whatever

    Also, Granger has never defended Wade. I would be doing a disservice to the term "defended" by agreeing with that statement.

    Edit: While I agree that we should use Paul on DRose, we have not done that much. I do agree Paul ultimately guards the best player depending on matchups we may face. But the reality stands is that most contenders we face will require that Paul guard the bigger player.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-20-2013 at 06:10 PM.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Cognitive dissonance will never allow BnG to believe anything else other than "Lance should start."

    I think I've showed this with the last few comments...
    I think you've shown this:

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like Lance in the starting unit because his defense and rebounding at this point(2013 not 2006) is better than Danny, I want the starting unit to be strong and only have one defensive weakness instead of two(David West).

    I also believe that Paul George is our super star and I don't want him to spend time chasing around Danny's guy because Danny can't guard him, Lance makes Paul George's job easier on that side of the court in my opinion.
    Danny and Lance are close as both defenders are rebounders but as of now and as of their last full regular seasons Dannys is both the better defender and rebounder. Rebounding numbers are simply cut and dry and you need to look at a full season not a small sampling. As far as defense each player has a strength the other doesn't. Lance is a good defender but he's not great. Lance is better at guarding smaller quicker players, Danny is far better at guarding bigger wings such as Lebron or Melo. Overall I think the combo of PG/Granger is a better defensive combination then the combo of PG/Lance especially against the teams where elite wing defense is needed such as the heat or I think the Nets will be this year.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Danny and Lance are close as both defenders are rebounders but as of now and as of their last full regular seasons Dannys is both the better defender and rebounder. Rebounding numbers are simply cut and dry and you need to look at a full season not a small sampling. As far as defense each player has a strength the other doesn't. Lance is a good defender but he's not great. Lance is better at guarding smaller quicker players, Danny is far better at guarding bigger wings such as Lebron or Melo. Overall I think the combo of PG/Granger is a better defensive combination then the combo of PG/Lance especially against the teams where elite wing defense is needed such as the heat or I think the Nets will be this year.

    Last time he got to defend Lebron he got destroyed, he was not that good at defending Melo few years ago either so I don't know where this "far better defender" thing is coming from.

    And there is not doubt that Lance in the starting unit made the Pacers a far better defensive team the Pacers were ranked best defensive team in the NBA last year for a reason.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Last time he got to defend Lebron he got destroyed, he was not that good at defending Melo few years ago either so I don't know where this "far better defender" thing is coming from.

    And there is not doubt that Lance in the starting unit made the Pacers a far better defensive team the Pacers were ranked best defensive team in the NBA last year for a reason.
    Several reasons but not because Lance replaced Danny in the starting unit.
    In order I'd say the improvement of PG, Hibbert, and West returning to form. Add Granger to that team this year and we'll be better yet.
    Add Lance and Scola to the bench and we should be able to ranked where we are today.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Several reasons but not because Lance replaced Danny in the starting unit.
    In order I'd say the improvement of PG, Hibbert, and West returning to form. Add Granger to that team this year and we'll be better yet.
    Add Lance and Scola to the bench and we should be able to ranked where we are today.
    So is everything else but Lance replacing Danny got it .........

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So is everything else but Lance replacing Danny got it .........
    There were a couple differences. Hill started instead of Collison. West was healthy. But the other change was Lance and yes I think that helped us a lot. Collison going away was the biggest positive for our defense followed by Lance making a huge improvement.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    So glad to hear this.
    Everybody ride the Scola train! WHOO WHOO

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I was thinking about starting a thread and comparing the pros and cons of having Lance (or Danny) starting, actually.
    Or bump one of the 798 threads from the summer where the exact same point was argued again and again.

    Can we please move on to a different topic of conversation?
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like Lance in the starting unit because his defense and rebounding at this point(2013 not 2006) is better than Danny, I want the starting unit to be strong and only have one defensive weakness instead of two(David West).

    I also believe that Paul George is our super star and I don't want him to spend time chasing around Danny's guy because Danny can't guard him, Lance makes Paul George's job easier on that side of the court in my opinion.
    What? PG always defended the best player. And it's not chasing a player that wares him out, it's fighting up against a bigger player.

    Even if you are right, and replacing Lance with Danny will slightly decrease the defense and rebounding. The shooting is still more important. You need shooters. The whole team doesn't have to be shooters, but shooters are needed.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There were a couple differences. Hill started instead of Collison. West was healthy. But the other change was Lance and yes I think that helped us a lot. Collison going away was the biggest positive for our defense followed by Lance making a huge improvement.
    You guys realize the five man unit of Hill-George-Granger-West-Hibbert had a better defensive rating than the five man unit of Hill-Stephenson-George-West-Hibbert, right? I know you guys have seen me post this a million times over the summer. The facts are on the side of Danny in this case. Even with the improvement of West,George, and Hibbert on defense it still had a worse defensive rating than they had with Granger the season before. At best Stephenson was a wash.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    What? PG always defended the best player. And it's not chasing a player that wares him out, it's fighting up against a bigger player.
    I've said this a million times and it gets overlooked. Paul is guarding the other teams best perimeter player regardless of who starts. If Lance were a Tony Allen type of defender then there would be a substantial reason to use defense as a reason Lance should start, but he's only a better defensive option in certain matchups.

    But no matter who starts, Paul is guarding the other teams best player.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The fact is, Mark Boyle had it right. Paul and Lance are the two most talented players on this team. They both should be starting and in a year they will be starting without this fanfare.
    If this is true, and Lance is truly a future big star for this team, then why wouldn't the Pacers and the coaching staff simply appease Lance and just give him the starting role? Once it was clear George was better than DC--boom he was the starter and we never looked back. Once it was clear Paul should be the starter over B.Rush--same thing.

    If it's such a clear cut choice as the aforementioned instances, and Lance is a future star of this franchise, why is there even a debate with the coaching staff and FO?

    And this post is NOT to belittle Lance, as I value his unique skills and intangibles he brings to the team whether he starts or comes off the bench. His energy, ball handling, and open court ability are unmatched on this team. But I do feel its a tad disrespectful to established vets like Danny, Hill, West, and Roy when people say Lance is the "second most talented player on our roster." Talent shows up on the court, and Lance has yet to produce anything close to the type of consistent production that our vets have shown throughout their respective careers.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    It's funny this debate is so heated and divided. It seems those in "Lance's camp" believe one thing, those in "Granger's camp" believe another-- while 80% of the board really doesn't care who starts or who's the 6th man.

    In all my time posting, and reading this website, I've NEVER seen such a passionate and constant debate over something like this. It's been very interesting and it'll be more interesting to see who's opinions end up being closer to the eventual outcome. My bet--it's a mixture of both opinions in some crazy microcosm.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I've said this a million times and it gets overlooked. Paul is guarding the other teams best perimeter player regardless of who starts. If Lance were a Tony Allen type of defender then there would be a substantial reason to use defense as a reason Lance should start, but he's only a better defensive option in certain matchups.

    But no matter who starts, Paul is guarding the other teams best player.
    What was first stated was that Paul would guard the other teams best wing, not best player.

    Here's a topic, what teams best player wouldn't he guard.

    Portland's Aldridge
    Houston's Howard is questionable? I think Harden might be the best player on Houston.
    Dallas's Dirk.
    Memphis's Gasol
    Laker's Gasol until Kobe gets back.
    King's Cousins
    Minnesota's Kevin Love

    Basically all I'm coming up with are guys who play the 4&5 and could overpower Paul. Lets see them guard him on the other end though.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    What? PG always defended the best player. And it's not chasing a player that wares him out, it's fighting up against a bigger player.

    Even if you are right, and replacing Lance with Danny will slightly decrease the defense and rebounding. The shooting is still more important. You need shooters. The whole team doesn't have to be shooters, but shooters are needed.
    And who is saying that Paul George is not guarding the best player? against Miami can Danny guard Dwade? the answer is a huge NO, against Brooklyn can Danny guard Pierce or JJ? another NO, Vs Chicago is Danny able to guard Deng? maybe, Vs New York is Danny going to be able to guard the quicker players in JR Smith and Shumpert? not sure about that.

    So by looking at every "contender" in the east it looks like Danny could be a huge defensive liability if he is in the starting unit while PG is guarding the other team best player(not Minnesota, Memphis or the Lakers as Will Galen is trying to tell us).

    And I'm sorry to disagree but shooting is not the most important I thought we already figured that out with the clown of JOB.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 10-21-2013 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    What was first stated was that Paul would guard the other teams best wing, not best player.

    Here's a topic, what teams best player wouldn't he guard.

    Portland's Aldridge
    Houston's Howard is questionable? I think Harden might be the best player on Houston.
    Dallas's Dirk.
    Memphis's Gasol
    Laker's Gasol until Kobe gets back.
    King's Cousins
    Minnesota's Kevin Love

    Basically all I'm coming up with are guys who play the 4&5 and could overpower Paul. Lets see them guard him on the other end though.
    So the Pacers are moving to the West then.

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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And who is saying that Paul George is not guarding the best player? against Miami can Danny guard Dwade? the answer is a huge NO, against Brooklyn can Danny guard Pierce or JJ? another NO, Vs Chicago is Danny able to guard Deng? maybe, Vs New York is Danny going to be able to guard the quicker players in JR Smith and Shumpert? not sure about that.
    I totally agree. DWest can guard Shumpert, but not Danny. I totally agree that the corpse of PP is totally too fast for Danny. And I totally agree, PG will be guarding the best wing offensive player against the Bulls and that will totally be Jimmy Butler.
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Ask yourself for a moment why our defense was so good with Lance in the starting unit.
    Because Hibbert was a much better defender in 12-13 than 11-12 and because that was the first season with Vogel having a full training camp. That helped him to instill this team with his defensive identity. PG always guarded the best defensive wing of the opponent no matter if it was a SG or a SF.
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    No it doesn't. Paul will normally guard the bigger player and Lance the smaller with some rare exceptions. That will normally be the SF. Notice that Lance guarded DWade and JR. Smith in the playoffs...and Paul guarded LeBron and Melo.
    That's because LeBron is better than Wade and Melo is better than JR. PG will always guard the best offensive wing of the opposition. That's something that Vogel has made very clear.
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Or bump one of the 798 threads from the summer where the exact same point was argued again and again.

    Can we please move on to a different topic of conversation?
    The thing is that people will still talk about it and derail other threads. For example, this thread has been derailed into a Granger vs Lance conversation while it started as something completely different.

    That's why I want to start a new thread focusing solely on the "Danny vs Lance for starter" issue so all the other threads can return to their previous subject.
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    Default Re: George on Granger: "He Looks like he's 98% ready"

    Maybe we need an 'Official Danny or Lance should start' thread, and if another thread gets derailed talking about it, perhaps an admin can move that string of responses over to the official thread? Just a thought.

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