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Thread: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    you watch your mouths about Curtis. he even sucked at Purdue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Evidently, because all this time I thought the 2-14 season was a product of replacing arguably the greatest quarterback of all time with the likes of Curtis Painter.
    And why would replacing a single player cause a 14 win team to become a 14 loss team? Because the rest of the team was old, injured and not good. Because Polian had doled out stupid contracts. And all our eggs were in Manning's basket, so if you lose that basket, you won't be good. Do you not remember Polian and the coaching staff getting crucified and ****-canned? Do you not remember Grigson cleaning house last year and we took on $30 million in dead money just to cut the fat? That was ALL about cap issues.
    Saying it was all because Manning went down is terribly short-sighted.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    And why would replacing a single player cause a 14 win team to become a 14 loss team? Because the rest of the team was old, injured and not good. Because Polian had doled out stupid contracts. And all our eggs were in Manning's basket, so if you lose that basket, you won't be good. Do you not remember Polian and the coaching staff getting crucified and ****-canned? Do you not remember Grigson cleaning house last year and we took on $30 million in dead money just to cut the fat? That was ALL about cap issues.
    Saying it was all because Manning went down is terribly short-sighted.
    Manning going down was, conservatively, 75% of the problem with the 2-14 season. A lot of other factors came into play (such as the ones you mentioned), but losing Manning was the biggest blow. I don't think you will find any sane person who will disagree with that assessment.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    Sure, if his new GM decides he's not a part of the future.
    I am still laughing at the notion that the shelf life is 5 years. The browns have historically made bad decisions and I don't know how anyone can believe that this was a good decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Manning going down was, conservatively, 75% of the problem with the 2-14 season. A lot of other factors came into play (such as the ones you mentioned), but losing Manning was the biggest blow. I don't think you will find any sane person who will disagree with that assessment.
    Had we not filled our roster with bad cap decisions, losing Manning wouldn't have resulted in a 2-win season. That is why Irsay cleaned house. Losing a legend should not result in a 12-win swing. Ask NE, who also lost their legend for a whole year, and they went 11-5. Say what you want about NE, but they manage their cap masterfully, and have proven they can absorb the loss of their centerpiece.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-22-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Had we not filled our roster with bad cap decisions, losing Manning wouldn't have resulted in a 2-win season. That is why Irsay cleaned house. Losing a legend should not result in a 12-win swing. Ask NE, who also lost their legend for a whole year, and they went 11-5. Say what you want about NE, but they manage their cap masterfully, and have proven they can absorb the loss of their centerpiece.
    It's not managing the cap so much as it is nailing the draft picks and finding guys who fit your system. I'm not saying cap management plays no part in things, because it obviously does, I'm just saying it doesn't have nearly the impact it does on NBA teams.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Dumb *** browns can't even tank right. End up winning their game without Trent while unwittingly gifting us a vicious power running game.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Painter was the biggest problem, followed closely by the OL. Once the other QB took over the team was actually kind of decent, which says a lot about Painter considering the other QB is most famous for running out of bounds in the end zone to avoid a sack on the 0-16 Lions.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Had we not filled our roster with bad cap decisions, losing Manning wouldn't have resulted in a 2-win season. That is why Irsay cleaned house. Losing a legend should not result in a 12-win swing. Ask NE, who also lost their legend for a whole year, and they went 11-5. Say what you want about NE, but they manage their cap masterfully, and have proven they can absorb the loss of their centerpiece.
    New England also kept a winning mentality around their franchise in 2008 because Hoodie wouldn't allow anything else. The Colts, OTOH, allowed themselves to have a bunch of self-pitty and seemed to almost want the 2-14 season once Peyton went out.

    We wanted to lose games in 2011. No, I do not think that our players and coaches actually tried to throw away games. But those who ran the franchise put a roster on the field that yielded the best chance of losing. There is no other rational explanation for leaving Painter out there for as long as we did when clearly Dan O. was a better option. Also, weren't we at the top of the waiver wire for virtually the entire season? Couldn't we have tried signing a couple of players during the course of the season to help? We did nothing to attempt to win games.

    Hey, I support it 100% after seeing how it worked out. Seems like a brilliant strategic move at this point.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Oh I do not buy that at all. I think you guys are seriously not looking at the foundation factors and actual things going on around that time. On the surface, most Lay people are going to be like "Oh, well ya, they lost Peyton, so ya, it's understandable that they lost 14 games." One player does not a franchise ruin, even Peyton Manning. I'm not going to speculate that we threw the season... or that our players bought into some self-pity. I know the players on that team, and they were injured and old, and no longer effective, but they weren't whiners and quitters. Reggie Wayne and Robert Mathis wouldn't buy into that philosophy at all nor would they allow it.

    I wish people would just lay to rest all these crazy conspiracy theories. It's a well known fact that by the end of Polian's tenure, he had strapped the team with some bloated contracts. The result that year was a ton of money wrapped up in players who weren't playing, including Manning. That's why Grigson entered the scene and immediately starting cutting people, knowing full well we'd be paying for their services the next year ---- dead money. $30million of it. The ONLY bad contract we kept was Freeney, and he was gone the next year. (Grigson did an unreal job of cutting the fat and making hard business decisions. He's also done extremely well with the types of contracts he's brought in, ones that don't strap us long term). The talent around Manning, imo, wasn't great, but Manning masked it. The underlying problem was the overall talent of the team and how resources had been allocated. You lose that guy who is THAT much a part of the overall system (and you cannot argue that the way the team was structured, Manning represented an exorbitant amount of the make-up of that team), and all of a sudden the system takes a ****. And when the system takes a ****, we didn't have Belichick to address it -- we had Jim Caldwell. Look back on that team --- it was built ENTIRELY around Manning. Even the defense. The defense was built fast, small, light to get after the quarterback because they could count on Manning getting out to fast starts. Very, very few QBs could be built around like that. The receivers around Manning weren't great overall receivers (except Wayne). They were receivers that fit Manning's style. The running backs Manning used --- after Edge, was a buncha no-names, because the running game was an after thought. Manning needed a running back mostly as a decoy. James Mungro is all he needed. But Peyton goes down and you have to insert a "normal" QB into his spot --- they're not used to getting out fast. The receivers aren't built for Painter. The defense isn't built to play from behind. Having a running game becomes important, but you aren't going to get that with a pass-protect O-Line and a James Mungro or Donald Brown or whoever other no name RB Manning used. So you have a problem of poor personel getting over-paid, coupled with a management infrastructure incapable of handling that type of adversity and voila --- worst team in the NFL. The team was not well-rounded --- it was 100% taylored to Peyton Manning. It was a very lop-sided team in overall make-up. Brady is every bit the centerpiece of his team, and the Patriots, who have ALWAYS made smart shrewd business decisions, were still able to roll out their backup QB and win 11 games. It wasn't *just* Painter. It was total system failure, starting with bad contract decisions. Our drafting during that time wasn't stellar either, although not as bad as people want to believe (they generally drafted system guys who fit into Manning's grand scheme, to which they mostly succeeded).
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-23-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Oh I do not buy that at all. I think you guys are seriously not looking at the foundation factors and actual things going on around that time.
    No, we are. No one is disagreeing with your general premise--I think we all agree the 2-14 season was a mixture of Manning going down, a series of poor drafts and mangement decisions, a terrible coach, and a terrible backup quarterback. I think the the biggest reason--by far--was Manning going down. If Manning is healthy that year we win 10 games, minimum, and are right back in the playoffs and the purge is delayed a little more because he is simply that good.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    ProFootballMock ***** all over the browns in NFL QBs talkin' on Facebook today http://profootballmock.com/facebookc...posite-day-13/

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    No, we are. No one is disagreeing with your general premise--I think we all agree the 2-14 season was a mixture of Manning going down, a series of poor drafts and mangement decisions, a terrible coach, and a terrible backup quarterback. I think the the biggest reason--by far--was Manning going down. If Manning is healthy that year we win 10 games, minimum, and are right back in the playoffs and the purge is delayed a little more because he is simply that good.
    Well, whatever floats your boat. It was the superficial reason, the on the surface reason, the event that caused the house of cards to fall. You build a brick house, and get hit by a gust of wind, you should only lose a shingle. You build a house of cards and get hit by a gust of wind, your whole house is going down. There's a massive difference between losing a few shingles and looking at a pile of rubble, and the story from there is completely changed. In terms of the Colts, you could say "well, the gust of wind is what caused our 2-14 season". Reality is, gusts of wind happen, frequently, especially in the NFL. I'm saying "had you built your house of bricks, the gust of wind wouldn't have caused house to fall down." Him going down *should not* have caused a 2-14 season. If you want to just look at the superficial reason and not look at the underlying reasons, that's fine. I'll always believe, however, that it was the multitude of decisions made prior to his injury that ultimately led to the destruction of that era of Colts football. If it wasn't, then Jim Irsay wouldn't have cleaned house the way he did. The Patriots got hit by a gust of wind, and they lost a big shingle, but the house still stood.

    Now, that said, I'm glad they went 2-14 the year Luck came out... but that's an entirely different argument. Sometimes a purge is required.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-23-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    No, we are. No one is disagreeing with your general premise--I think we all agree the 2-14 season was a mixture of Manning going down, a series of poor drafts and mangement decisions, a terrible coach, and a terrible backup quarterback. I think the the biggest reason--by far--was Manning going down. If Manning is healthy that year we win 10 games, minimum, and are right back in the playoffs and the purge is delayed a little more because he is simply that good.

    In the regular season, yes. No way would I bet the house on him in the post season. Even this year. I'll call it now. Broncos will not win the SB this year.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Well, whatever floats your boat. It was the superficial reason, the on the surface reason, the event that caused the house of cards to fall. You build a brick house, and get hit by a gust of wind, you should only lose a shingle. You build a house of cards and get hit by a gust of wind, your whole house is going down. There's a massive difference between losing a few shingles and looking at a pile of rubble, and the story from there is completely changed. In terms of the Colts, you could say "well, the gust of wind is what caused our 2-14 season". Reality is, gusts of wind happen, frequently, especially in the NFL. I'm saying "had you built your house of bricks, the gust of wind wouldn't have caused house to fall down." Him going down *should not* have caused a 2-14 season. If you want to just look at the superficial reason and not look at the underlying reasons, that's fine. I'll always believe, however, that it was the multitude of decisions made prior to his injury that ultimately led to the destruction of that era of Colts football. If it wasn't, then Jim Irsay wouldn't have cleaned house the way he did. The Patriots got hit by a gust of wind, and they lost a big shingle, but the house still stood.

    Now, that said, I'm glad they went 2-14 the year Luck came out... but that's an entirely different argument. Sometimes a purge is required.
    A gust of wind is losing Marvin Harrison for the season. Losing the best QB to ever play the game for the season is like removing the keystone in an arch, not matter how solid it is it will collapse on itself. That team had other problems, but that team was built around having he best QB in the world. Add that key piece and you have a player who makes up for the deficiencies on the OL combined with two defensive players who almost always came up big in big moments, and you got a team who can win games even if there are huge flaws.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    A gust of wind is losing Marvin Harrison for the season. Losing the best QB to ever play the game for the season is like removing the keystone in an arch, not matter how solid it is it will collapse on itself. That team had other problems, but that team was built around having he best QB in the world. Add that key piece and you have a player who makes up for the deficiencies on the OL combined with two defensive players who almost always came up big in big moments, and you got a team who can win games even if there are huge flaws.
    I discussed that. I also explained the problems with that. Your philosophy doesn't hold up when you consider the Patriots situation, the EXACT same situation... who also lost their arch "keystone" and didn't suffer near the drop-off. You have to be able to look at context and not just elevate Manning to God status and completely disregard or acknowledge or correlate the fact that he was a stud, while the team built for him was extremely flawed. You can't just put it all on Manning's injury... you have to consider the team around him, built FOR him... was built to die without him. It all works when Manning is there... doesn't work at all when he's not. That that was the problem. You can't surround Manning, aging himself, with a bunch of specialized, high-paid, aging players, and then wonder why -- when they all got injured --- we sucked. It was a systemic problem. Yes, had Manning not been injured, we would've been fine. But he was. That was a whole lot of eggs in one basket, and the basket's bottom fell out. That's why we went 2-14. The system in place, minus Manning, was terrible. It didn't have to be that way. What I'm saying is; the team could have, and should have, been constructed around Manning in a more fail-safe way, and we would not have lost 14 games. It's why Irsay fired the entire team. There's absolutely no reason why a team minus Manning but a few years before WITH him was a SB contender would lose 14 games, when next year, with a rookie quarterback, completely new FO, $30mill in dead money and a bunch cast-offs and practice squad players won 11 games. There's absolutely zero reason for that. You cannot justify that to me at all. Losing Manning should not have resulted in 14 losses. It was a top-down systemic failure, a beautiful design when the linchpin was there, and a terrible one when it wasn't. NE built for that; Indy did not.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-23-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    What I'm saying is; the team could have, and should have, been constructed around Manning in a more fail-safe way, and we would not have lost 14 games. It's why Irsay fired the entire team.
    What does that have to do with the cap though, which kicked off this discussion?

    Those choices, and the results of those choices, weren't made because the Colts were pinching pennies. Those decisions were conscious ones, trying to design the team a certain way. They weren't forced into making those decisions because they didn't cap flexibility. The salary cap really didn't have anything to do with why the Colts were so awful without Manning.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What does that have to do with the cap though, which kicked off this discussion?

    Those choices, and the results of those choices, weren't made because the Colts were pinching pennies. Those decisions were conscious ones, trying to design the team a certain way. They weren't forced into making those decisions because they didn't cap flexibility. The salary cap really didn't have anything to do with why the Colts were so awful without Manning.
    This is the root cause of the 2-14 season. It had nothing to do with the cap. It has everything to do with how Polian constructed the team around Manning. The offensive line was neglected because Manning could get them into the right play a majority of the time and Mudd would coach them up to an acceptable place.

    The defense was built to play with the lead and our offense typically could do that. Once Manning went down we had real protection issues and our defense actually had to be stout and could not rely on Manning.

    Now we would have had cap issues had we kept Manning because of how much he was getting paid, but the 2-14 season was all because this team was built for Peyton.

    Grigs learned from Polian's mistake and is trying to establish a running game and defense so we have a better shot of not completely falling on our face if Luck got hurt. Even with that said if Luck went down we would still be screwed because you need a QB to win in this league long term.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    No, we are. No one is disagreeing with your general premise--I think we all agree the 2-14 season was a mixture of Manning going down, a series of poor drafts and mangement decisions, a terrible coach, and a terrible backup quarterback. I think the the biggest reason--by far--was Manning going down. If Manning is healthy that year we win 10 games, minimum, and are right back in the playoffs and the purge is delayed a little more because he is simply that good.
    Your point is actually proving KM's point.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    it's been a minute so I may be a bit hazy on the specifics, but even a few weeks into the season there was no guarantee Peyton wasn't going to play in 2011. the thinking was maybe he misses preason but that he could play week one, that was the thinking all of training camp and into the preseason. we didn't go that whole offseason knowing he was going to miss the whole year, that wasn't announced until well into September. it wasn't the cap that prevented us from getting a different QB, especially since we did when we signed Kerry Collins for 4 million, it was uncertainty with Peyton.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Your point is actually proving KM's point.
    Then you clearly aren't understanding the point.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    In the regular season, yes. No way would I bet the house on him in the post season. Even this year. I'll call it now. Broncos will not win the SB this year.
    Well that's when his weak supporting cast cost him. Will Denver win the SB this year? Hell if I know, I sort of doubt it just because that's the nature of the NFL.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I wish people would just lay to rest all these crazy conspiracy theories.
    I don't think my theory is all that crazy. I'm not saying that the players or coaches actually tried to deliberately lose games on the field. All I'm saying is that the organization did not even remotely try to improve things when we were losing a lot of games, and instead seemed to deliberately stick with the things that were not working so that they'd continue to lose games.

    If they were honestly trying to win, then Curtis Painter should not have started 8 games. He probably should have been yanked after the New Orleans 62-7 massacre, yet he still started 4 games after that. He should have been yanked after the next game when we were smacked in Tennessee, yet he still got to keep starting. He should have been yanked after the Atlanta beatdown, yet he still got to keep starting. He should have been yanked after the pitiful 3 point effort at home against Jax, yet he still got to keep starting. It was only after the loss against Carolina, when we were virtually assured at getting the number 1 pick, that we finally brought Dan Orvlosky in. And his first start was in New England of all places, which was akin to throwing him to the wolves. Had we honestly cared about winning games, then we'd have started him at home against Carolina in the previous week, which would have been a far better environment for a player making his first start of the season.

    Had we honestly been trying to field a team that would give us the best chance at winning the game, then there is simply no way that we would have rolled with Painter for as long as we did when it was so apparent that he was absolutely awful. A team that was trying to win would have given Dan O. a chance long before he finally got one. Once we lost those close games at the beginning of the season and it became clear that we had zero chance at the playoffs without Peyton, we did all we could to ensure that we would continue to lose games so that we would get that number 1 pick.

    Also, we never added waiver players or attempted to make trades. Some of those guys could have maybe been better than the scrubs we were putting out there.

    I agree 100% with what the Colts did. Leaving Painter out there for as long as they did was a great strategic move that appears to have paid off big time. Our franchise saw the big picture and understood that 2011 was a complete throwaway. Winning some more meaningless games could have hurt our draft position, which would have been idiotic for our future. But you have to call a spade a spade. This was not a team that was honestly trying to win games. They didn't try at all to improve the team and deliberately stayed with the things that were losing.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-24-2013 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Who? I've never even heard of this site. Is it hosted in Cleveland?

    The thousands of people in the SiriusXM radio audience severely outnumber the 207 Browns fans who voted on that poll.
    1) Majority of Browns fans would not have voted that it was a good trade WHEN the trade occurred,

    2) Browns 2-0 since the trade and now tied for the division lead in what has become a weak division! Browns defense is a top 5 in the league. Just need an offense that can get near 20 PPG.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Trent Richardson appears to be the exact same player as Vick Ballard. Not sure Vick Ballard = a 1st round draft pick
    David "And One" West

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