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Thread: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think he looks great in open space
    I keep seeing this and maybe I just don't know what is considered "open space" but I take it as when the guy has, well, open space. At which point, who isn't good in open space?

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I agree with Suaveness, he runs good in space and did looked good doing it in the second half.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    When I think of it, I think of a players ability to make a single tackler miss by either a juke or running through their tackle. Trent can juke, but I think he's pretty good at running through single defenders and finishing runs.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Maybe T Rich isn't a "power back"? His best play of the game was the screen pass where he had room to run. I really don't know what the deal is to be honest. Probably a combination of the line, play calling, and performance
    He is a power back, but he's got very quick feet. Which is why he is hard to tackle in the open field. The Ravens defense, you know the unit that won the Super Bowl last year and had all time greats Ray Lewis and Ed Reed, said that TRich was the hardest running back to tackle in the NFL last year. I know it's just an opinion, but it's a pretty good one to have.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I keep seeing this and maybe I just don't know what is considered "open space" but I take it as when the guy has, well, open space. At which point, who isn't good in open space?
    Donald Brown doesn't for example. Brown hits holes very well, but how often does he make the first guy miss? Not an indictment against Donald they are just two very different runners.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Get him a couple screen plays, I think he's got the potential to put up an 80 yard rushing and 80 yard receiving day before this year is through.

    Is he a perfect running back? No he's not, but he reminds of Jerome Bettis in a lot of ways. Quick feet, powerful runner, and Bettis was much better in open space than he ever got credit for.

    I would like to start the game against STL this weekend with a couple screens similar to the big 24 yard gain Trent picked up on our last drive Sunday in Houston. Build off of that big play.

    Also, I don't know if it's been pointed out anywhere, but on the 58 yard pass to TY, Trent made a hell of a blcok to pick up the blitz, Luck still got hit by someone who got through elsewhere, but after Luck pops up from the ground and starts running down the field to celebrate, he and Trent find each other and dap each other up both for the block and throw. Which is a great thing to see, if Luck believes in Trent's pass protection it will help calm him down so much.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeTheMole View Post
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    I'm starting to come to that side. I love Richardson, I want him to do well really badly. But to be worthy of a first round pick, you have to be worth a lot. No one is denying that he has talent, but I am denying that he is worthy of a first round pick as of now. The majority of the jury is still deliberating since we don't even have half of a season of Richardson to judge on, but the early results show he simply isn't worthy of a first round pick.

    Why do we get to pick and choose what players we use the o-line excuse, the formation excuse etc. with? I haven't heard anyone getting angry about not using DHB to his strengths, we just chastise him for dropping balls. I hope T-Rich gets better. But right now, I'm putting the responsibility square on his shoulders.
    This is what my question is when the offensive line is always brought up to defend Trent. I am no expert on the offensive line play so what are they doing now that is different than when Bradshaw was having success? Why was Bradshaw who is new to the system as well able to run the ball with a lot of success behind the same offensive line that Trent has? Bradshaw looked like the lead back that we need and Trent looks like any other average running back in this league. Ballard last year ran better behind a worse offensive line and he was still able to perform much better. Football Outsiders has us graded through 8 weeks as one of the top 10 best offensive lines in the league when it comes to run blocking. So what am I missing here with the offensive line?

    To me the thing that can defend Trent the best is the inability of Pep to get Trent into formations that work best for him. Even before Wayne was hurt we would go with all of these huge packages with three tight ends and announce to everyone that we were running the ball. To me we really should be passing the ball to set up the run and get Trent into formations that get him into space. Spread them out and let him run the ball. Give him screens and draw plays that can get him into space.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    People don't get angry about not using DHB to his strengths, because he drops the damn ball when they try. How many screen passes has he dropped this year? Multiple. He's a WR, not a RB, so his strenth is catching the ball, then running with it and he doesn't do the first step.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    People don't get angry about not using DHB to his strengths, because he drops the damn ball when they try. How many screen passes has he dropped this year? Multiple. He's a WR, not a RB, so his strenth is catching the ball, then running with it and he doesn't do the first step.
    I don't remember him dropping screen passes. Deep balls? Yeah, a lot.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Get him a couple screen plays, I think he's got the potential to put up an 80 yard rushing and 80 yard receiving day before this year is through.

    Is he a perfect running back? No he's not, but he reminds of Jerome Bettis in a lot of ways. Quick feet, powerful runner, and Bettis was much better in open space than he ever got credit for.

    I would like to start the game against STL this weekend with a couple screens similar to the big 24 yard gain Trent picked up on our last drive Sunday in Houston. Build off of that big play.

    Also, I don't know if it's been pointed out anywhere, but on the 58 yard pass to TY, Trent made a hell of a blcok to pick up the blitz, Luck still got hit by someone who got through elsewhere, but after Luck pops up from the ground and starts running down the field to celebrate, he and Trent find each other and dap each other up both for the block and throw. Which is a great thing to see, if Luck believes in Trent's pass protection it will help calm him down so much.
    The TD run that Luck had against the Broncos was aided by a fantastic block by TRich, who not only stonewalled the blitzer at the line of scrimmage but didn't disengage the block until the ref had the ball.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    This is what my question is when the offensive line is always brought up to defend Trent. I am no expert on the offensive line play so what are they doing now that is different than when Bradshaw was having success? Why was Bradshaw who is new to the system as well able to run the ball with a lot of success behind the same offensive line that Trent has? Bradshaw looked like the lead back that we need and Trent looks like any other average running back in this league. Ballard last year ran better behind a worse offensive line and he was still able to perform much better. Football Outsiders has us graded through 8 weeks as one of the top 10 best offensive lines in the league when it comes to run blocking. So what am I missing here with the offensive line?

    To me the thing that can defend Trent the best is the inability of Pep to get Trent into formations that work best for him. Even before Wayne was hurt we would go with all of these huge packages with three tight ends and announce to everyone that we were running the ball. To me we really should be passing the ball to set up the run and get Trent into formations that get him into space. Spread them out and let him run the ball. Give him screens and draw plays that can get him into space.
    We've already covered this. It's not the same line. We've lost some guys and point blank, the overall unit play has decreased dramatically. Against San Fran, for instance, our line played fantastic and it looked like we were really righting the o-line ship.... ever since then it's been downhill. All you have to do is open your eyes and watch, and not make broad sweeping statements like "it's the same line". It's not. Lines aren't static, and units don't play at a static level all year. Watch the games.... watch the line. You'll see they are getting pushed back and blown up on almost every play. The only running plays we seem to succeed at is when we go into a receiver set and bring in DBrown as a change of pace back, they push one direction, and he reverses it.... and on those plays we actually make running lanes and holes behind the action, which he does a decent job of hitting. There's less defenders (and thus offensive teammates) in the area, so there's more space to work in. That's exactly what DBrown is good for -- change of pace. He's not a workhorse back. He's best designed to be that back you sub in every few series and try to hit a home run with. DBrown is faster than ****, accelerates and runs straight-line very fast, so when he hits those holes, it's a good thing. But he's not powerful. He's not a shifty, patient runner. It's get ball and go 100mph until stopped. That's his one trick. He's not the best pass blocker. He's not the best receiver, he's not as good in the open field. TRich is a much better overall back than DBrown. Brown has him in one category --- burst. And right now, burst is about all anyone can do with the holes we're (not) getting from the line. Basically, what we're seeing is that Brown has enough burst to get through that line before the portal collapses. Literally.

    Not only that, but Luck's protection has been pretty awful. They go through stretches where they "sort of" get it together for a few successive plays and Luck is able to stick around in the pocket. Luck is completely masking that issue right now. His ability to escape the pressure is phenomenal and deliver under pressure, and even with guys hanging on him... however he's still on pace for more hits/knockdowns/bothers this year than he was last year, which was not a good year in that category.

    The line has been terrible, and has only decreased all year. If we have to put Hasselbeck in there at any point this year for any reason, he's going to get eaten alive. That's probably the biggest scenario I can point to that truly proves how terrible our line is right now. We know what Luck's doin.... now substitute him with Matt and tell me you have any confidence at all that he won't get just absolutely battered by this line. Hasselbeck is a pretty good QB behind a decent line. That right there, along with absolutely no run holes, is what you call, an offensive line unit failure. It's terrible. But you still have the knuckleheads on here with their "dude, TRich has minus-5 ypc, we lost that trade".
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-05-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    This is what my question is when the offensive line is always brought up to defend Trent. I am no expert on the offensive line play so what are they doing now that is different than when Bradshaw was having success? Why was Bradshaw who is new to the system as well able to run the ball with a lot of success behind the same offensive line that Trent has? Bradshaw looked like the lead back that we need and Trent looks like any other average running back in this league. Ballard last year ran better behind a worse offensive line and he was still able to perform much better. Football Outsiders has us graded through 8 weeks as one of the top 10 best offensive lines in the league when it comes to run blocking. So what am I missing here with the offensive line?

    To me the thing that can defend Trent the best is the inability of Pep to get Trent into formations that work best for him. Even before Wayne was hurt we would go with all of these huge packages with three tight ends and announce to everyone that we were running the ball. To me we really should be passing the ball to set up the run and get Trent into formations that get him into space. Spread them out and let him run the ball. Give him screens and draw plays that can get him into space.
    I have beaten this point to death but I will again. Football Outsiders gives a huge amount of credit to the Line as long as you don't get stuffed behind the line of scrimmage. This is why the Colts rank high but that isn't to say that they are opening up great holes for the running back. IF you scroll down the listings you see that the COlts run it the most where they are least effective which is off the guards and center. They run it the least where they rank number one which is off the tackles. That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me but what it does tell me is that we are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.


    Bradshaw looked below average vs Oakland, then was good against Miami and was great vs San Fransico which was the game that Samson Satele missed McGlynn started at center. The longer this line has been together the more I believe McGlynn and Satele can't coexist. The stats really play out that way as well so I expect one of them to be gone at some point. To your point though the line hasn't been together the entire year. The best blocking TE went on IR and Donald Thomas injury forced the line to shuffle and Statele aslo missed two games.

    In Vick Ballards only game we ran a grand total of 2 big packages and he had a 4.9 avg.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-05-2013 at 02:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    This was before the Texans game, but this is a good analysis of Richardson versus the line with some videos of plays to illustrate:

    http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/...-colts-offense

    One of his paragraphs illustrate how I feel about Richardson right now:

    Now that I’ve watched a lot of what Trent Richardson has done this year, I feel confident saying that his 3.0 yards per carry average is more a product of his environment than of him directly. The Colts just aren’t a very good run blocking team as of right now. But my worry is that he’s a lot closer to being the back his stats say he is, than he is to being a back that’s worthy of a first-round pick.
    I can see more why people feel Richardson could be very good with a good line. But I think that makes him a terrible scheme fit. It's very difficult to rebuild a line as offensive line is one of the scarcest positions in the NFL. The Colts already having Luck will likely choose pass blockers over run graders if they have to choose. The Colts are already good, so building a line through the draft will be harder, and now they have one less pick because of Richardson. And it's only a couple more years before Luck, Hilton, Richardson all hit free agency at the same time, so while the Colts have cap space now they have to be very careful with it. And of course there are always other holes to fill, including still several on defense. All those factors make the possibility of having a good to great run blocking line anytime soon seem remote, and therefore if Richardson is going to work out he better have the talent to run behind an average or worse run line. I'm not sure he does.

    I do feel that the Texans game was Richardson's best game at taking the yards that were available. I did think the best move of the night came on Brown's big run though when he slid past defenders into the hole in a way that I'm not sure Trent can do.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    This was before the Texans game, but this is a good analysis of Richardson versus the line with some videos of plays to illustrate:

    http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/...-colts-offense

    One of his paragraphs illustrate how I feel about Richardson right now:



    I can see more why people feel Richardson could be very good with a good line. But I think that makes him a terrible scheme fit. It's very difficult to rebuild a line as offensive line is one of the scarcest positions in the NFL. The Colts already having Luck will likely choose pass blockers over run graders if they have to choose. The Colts are already good, so building a line through the draft will be harder, and now they have one less pick because of Richardson. And it's only a couple more years before Luck, Hilton, Richardson all hit free agency at the same time, so while the Colts have cap space now they have to be very careful with it. And of course there are always other holes to fill, including still several on defense. All those factors make the possibility of having a good to great run blocking line anytime soon seem remote, and therefore if Richardson is going to work out he better have the talent to run behind an average or worse run line. I'm not sure he does.

    I do feel that the Texans game was Richardson's best game at taking the yards that were available. I did think the best move of the night came on Brown's big run though when he slid past defenders into the hole in a way that I'm not sure Trent can do.
    I also read Muths anaylsis and I agree on most of his points and its refreshing to hear a offensive linemens point of view. His criticism of Likenbach is pretty accurate overall but you confused me why you think it will be hard to build the line.

    In the draft the LT's are the premium picks in the first round and we have already selected 2 offensive lineman in the last draft. One being a center and the other a guard who is starting and looks pretty good except for that Texans game when he was matched up one on one most of the night.

    The Colts will also get Donald Thomas back for next year so really the Colts need to use one more pick on the offensive line if your believe the tackles are fine and I do.

    Trent also fits the scheme just fine but the scheme is not capable of being ran due to the line. I also have a hard time believeing that Chuck and the FO will give up on the scheme simply becuase the line is underperforming. They will use more money or more picks to fix it and who knows it may have been fixed if Thomas doesn't get hurt.

    The part however I disagreed with Muths points is that Trent needs to become a Jammal Charles or McCoy type back. Thats not who he is and personally I think those type of backs get banged up to easily and can't sustain the NFL pounding of a power running game which is the "scheme" of the Colts.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-05-2013 at 03:41 PM.

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  21. #415
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    This was before the Texans game, but this is a good analysis of Richardson versus the line with some videos of plays to illustrate:

    http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/...-colts-offense

    One of his paragraphs illustrate how I feel about Richardson right now:



    I can see more why people feel Richardson could be very good with a good line. But I think that makes him a terrible scheme fit. It's very difficult to rebuild a line as offensive line is one of the scarcest positions in the NFL. The Colts already having Luck will likely choose pass blockers over run graders if they have to choose. The Colts are already good, so building a line through the draft will be harder, and now they have one less pick because of Richardson. And it's only a couple more years before Luck, Hilton, Richardson all hit free agency at the same time, so while the Colts have cap space now they have to be very careful with it. And of course there are always other holes to fill, including still several on defense. All those factors make the possibility of having a good to great run blocking line anytime soon seem remote, and therefore if Richardson is going to work out he better have the talent to run behind an average or worse run line. I'm not sure he does.

    I do feel that the Texans game was Richardson's best game at taking the yards that were available. I did think the best move of the night came on Brown's big run though when he slid past defenders into the hole in a way that I'm not sure Trent can do.
    There's a difference. I believe we're *trying* for a specific power scheme. Trent fits that scheme. The problem is, the line is not executing. I also disagree that o-line is scarce and hard to rebuild.

    That same line of logic would dictate that we should have passed on Luck, since we didn't have an established offensive line. You get talent, and you build around it.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    That same line of logic would dictate that we should have passed on Luck, since we didn't have an established offensive line. You get talent, and you build around it.
    Let's not compare the line play for quarterbacks and running backs. It's totally different and Luck has a lot more control over the offense (audibles, quick throws, scrambling, dump offs, etc.) than any running back could possibly have.

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    That's really not a good argument.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    That's really not a good argument.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    If Richardson needs an elite line to run behind, how good is he really? Does the fact that Donald Brown has been relatively effective behind our crappy line make him an above average NFL RB?

    I am not out to get Richardson in vnzla fashion (and I don't think cdash is either) but I am pretty concerned.

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    So you're concerned that a guy getting hit as soon as he gets the ball doesn't perform some sort of miracle.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Pray tell, why is it not a good argument?
    The argument is that you get talent then build around it. The line dictates the level of success of many skill position players. Take mjd or ray rice for example. They are having terrible years much like chris johnson sucked last year.

    That doesn't mean their value is bad if they had a better line.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-05-2013 at 08:47 PM.

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    If we waited to acquire talent until we got a good line, we'd never do so. It's been over 15 years since we had a line that excelled at both phases and really a lot longer.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I have been a Donald Brown apologist for the most part but why is everyone singing his praises all of a sudden? Sure he's averaging 6 a carry but he just doesn't have much production to go with it...
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    I have been a Donald Brown apologist for the most part but why is everyone singing his praises all of a sudden? Sure he's averaging 6 a carry but he just doesn't have much production to go with it...
    Because this is the first time he's ever been the best healthy back on the team.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Because this is the first time he's ever been the best healthy back on the team.
    Sadly his only healthy year was the 2011 season, but he needs 40 carries to exceed his attempts that he had his rookie year. I like Donald, I really do but the average is skewed because of the lack of carries...
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