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Thread: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

  1. #376
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I'm telling you, it's ridiculous to even make these claims until this line gets addressed. They got man-handled most of the night, even the pass protection. TRich was still managing positive yards. And he's really good in the open field. You're drawing some very ill-advised conclusions if you're not acknowledging the line is getting owned, and basing the rest of your conclusion off TRich's stats. And again, you're not even acknowledging the very different formations we're lining our backs up in. TRich gets these power sets, and DBrown gets these receiver formations. The only two runs I remember TRich getting stuffed on last night was the last drive, and you tell me where he was supposed to go on those plays. Our line got owned on those plays. He was met instantly.
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  3. #377
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Yeah, I know what I see. I know what I've seen for a year and a half now. You guys masquerading around like you see football on a deeper level than the rest of us because you assume we aren't taking the crappy line, play calling, and formations into account are silly. He might not be as bad as he has been so far in his career, but he absolutely was not worth a first round pick.

  4. #378

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, I know what I see. I know what I've seen for a year and a half now. You guys masquerading around like you see football on a deeper level than the rest of us because you assume we aren't taking the crappy line, play calling, and formations into account are silly. He might not be as bad as he has been so far in his career, but he absolutely was not worth a first round pick.
    So what you are saying is that you see football at a deeper level than Ryan Grigson?
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-04-2013 at 02:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    He WAS bad at pass pro. Now he's pretty damn good, narrative be damned. And he was a healthy scratch pretty often last year, look it up. I don't know why, but he was in someone's doghouse and whomever's it was was stupid. We went away from running because running the football doesn't matter in today's NFL. We all saw what happened when we had no choice but to go away from the "BUILD THE MONSTER!" idiocy. Which is why trading for/drafting a 1st round RB is stupid. This has gone round and round in this thread, people are stuck in their beliefs, but this trade was terrible. We had a better RB on the roster in Brown (despite Peyton yelling at him once 4 years ago), that 1st rounder would be MASSIVELY more valuable spent on a WR/LB/interior OL than on a RB that probably shouldn't get a 2nd contract from us.

    Brown's easily the best RB we've had since Addai. But there's a lot of people that think Addai sucked too so whatever.
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  7. #380
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    So what you are saying is that you see football at a deeper level than Ryan Grigson?
    Simply put, if you didn't watch every snap of the 2012 Browns season, and you disagree with him then your opinion is wrong...
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  8. #381

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    Simply put, if you didn't watch every snap of the 2012 Browns season, and you disagree with him then your opinion is wrong...
    I have no problem disagreeing with him since I like where this team is heading. The money on the defense has so far paid off and even the Walden signing doesn't look so bad when you consider some of the big play moments he has shown up in.

    By in large though I trust Grigson over some message board contrarians. To me this team looks like the real deal in year 2 which is something that tends to spoil you if you don't consider how amazing it is in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-04-2013 at 02:08 PM.

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  10. #382
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    Simply put, if you didn't watch every snap of the 2012 Browns season, and you disagree with him then your opinion is wrong...
    I never once said anyone's opinion is "wrong." I just feel very strongly about my own, and have been defending it as much as you guys have been defending yours. The fact that you don't agree is fine. Hence the debate.

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  12. #383
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    So what you are saying is that you see football at a deeper level than Ryan Grigson?
    Talk about twisting words. At what point did I ever infer that? I trust Grigson more often than not--he's made great moves so far. This isn't one of them. It's impossible for GMs of any sports team in any league to bat 1.000 so I don't expect him to. I love that he was aggressive and is in win now mode because I think the team is right there. But this particular move I didn't like from the minute it happened.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    [QUOTE=Gamble1;1727763]
    By in large though I trust Grigson over some message board contrarians. ]/QUOTE]

    Yes, as do I, but as much as I enjoy your not-so-thinly-veiled personal attacks on me, it's not like I am on an island with this line of thought. I linked to an ESPN article and if you utilize Google I think you will find if the tide wasn't in this direction to begin with, it certainly is headed that way now. But I'm sure you guys will find a way to discredit each and every person as you have to this point because their views are not in line with what you want to believe is true.

  14. #385

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Talk about twisting words. At what point did I ever infer that? I trust Grigson more often than not--he's made great moves so far. This isn't one of them. It's impossible for GMs of any sports team in any league to bat 1.000 so I don't expect him to. I love that he was aggressive and is in win now mode because I think the team is right there. But this particular move I didn't like from the minute it happened.
    On first round picks or even second round picks I completely believe that Grigson should hit on around 80 to 90 percent.

    The point is that he evaluated the talent and considered a first round pick to be worth it and you don't believe that is the case. You can say all you want that he is not worth it but even with his average stats in Cleveland Grigson disagreed with you on his talent evaluation of Trent.

    I just think this trade goes along same lines of the Vontae Davis trade. It started out rocky and then it improved to the point to where everyone is on board with him being the starting DB in the future. Likewise I think people will be won over on not just Trent but the style of play set up by the FO and the coaching staff.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-04-2013 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I don't claim to be a football expert, but to me it seems Trent does a great job breaking the first tackle and he looks pretty ****ing fantastic when he gets into open space from my eye. I also think he is forced to run out of the jumbo set way too often while Brown often gets to run out of nicely spread out formations. Just my two cents.

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  17. #387
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The point is that he evaluated the talent and considered a first round pick to be worth it and you don't believe that is the case. You can say all you want that he is not worth it but even with his average stats in Cleveland Grigson disagreed with you on his talent evaluation of Trent.
    Does that make him right though? What you are describing is any fan's reaction to a trade/draft pick. Just because the people that know more about it made the pick/trade doesn't make it the best move. I'm sure if I snooped around long enough I could find a post somewhere on this board where you criticize the move that a Colts/Pacers GM made that you didn't like, even though I'm quite positive they had more information than you on the matter. This is why it's an opinion, folks.

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  19. #388

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Does that make him right though? What you are describing is any fan's reaction to a trade/draft pick. Just because the people that know more about it made the pick/trade doesn't make it the best move. I'm sure if I snooped around long enough I could find a post somewhere on this board where you criticize the move that a Colts/Pacers GM made that you didn't like, even though I'm quite positive they had more information than you on the matter. This is why it's an opinion, folks.
    Miles Freakin Plummle I criticized and he might actually be good but thats beside the point. I thought the whole reasoning behind that pick made no sense (we need a Jeff Foster) so you don't have search long.

    I look at it like this. Picks are largely based on systems and the evaluation of those picks are a reflection. You know why the Seahawks got great corners for barely nothing? ITs becuase not many teams wanted slower but longer DB's that could be a liability on the deep ball. We saw that when the Colts palyed them.

    I look at the value of a running back in this system and I realize its valued higher than what other teams would value a rb especially if they are a pass first team. This team needs a power back who can stay healthy which is why I said I wanted Eddie Lacy in the first round. If we still had Manning I would rather of had a WR or a OL who could pass block first then run block.

    You may disagree with the system and the FO approach on offense but Grigson valued that pick based on what the coaches asked for which is I don't bash the decision. ITs also why I don't care about ESPN articles becuase player evaluations normally are reaction first pieces for guys who are largely not looking at the system or the other personnel.

    Make no mistake though if he struggles a lot next year I will be harsher on the trade much like I soared on Brown after year 2 years because he was billed as a all around player but he ended up being a terrible liability in pass protection which the system absolutely required.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 11-04-2013 at 03:34 PM.

  20. #389
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Well, I agree mostly, Gamble, but I will addendum that last paragraph with this: I'll only question TRich *if* we get this line addressed. I *thought* it was going to be addressed *this* year. The complaints should lie not with the running back --- but with the line. We went and spent some money on that position and made some moves to address it, and we've regressed from last year, when we were already pretty bad. We've upgraded a lot of positions on this team, but the o-line has taken a step back.

    You can see when a unit is working well. It wasn't until well into the 2nd half when our line started to make some plays, but by and large they were beat badly last night, again. It would look even worse if it wasn't for Mr. Luck masking most of their issues.
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  21. #390
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I thought too Richardson had some good runs in open space yesterday. Pep went with Brown for the best part of the snaps in the game IIRC.

    The narrative that we put Richardson in jumbo set and Donald in spread formations should hopefully start changing. Not because it was not true but now it's the second game in a row where we used Rich a bit out of single back formations and we also passed out of the I formation (irrelevant with Rich but good to see anyway).

  22. #391

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    KM I also agree that I thought the line would be somewhat better but really thomas injury was a huge set back and we are still waiting for the center postion to be upgraded. Our RT is defiantly improved but interior is still the major problem.

    Next year I expect it to be more improved but given where it started from I see the progress and I think you have to factor in how tough this schedule has been to last year.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Maybe T Rich isn't a "power back"? His best play of the game was the screen pass where he had room to run. I really don't know what the deal is to be honest. Probably a combination of the line, play calling, and performance
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    The run blocking wasn't bad yesterday, not including the final drive. There were two plays yesterday that showed perfectly what TRich usually does wrong. The first one I think was his first carry. He had a hole to go through in which he could have gotten a couple of yards. Instead of hitting that hole and getting every yard he could he tiptoed through it ending in no gain. Another one he had a huge wide open lane to run through, but instead ran the opposite way into his blockers again ending in him getting less yards than he could have.

    All I ask of my running back is to maximize the amount of yards he can get, TRich does not do that very often. Instead he tends to be slow to hit the hole or doesn't even see the hole. That is why I can criticize him even though the OL isn't perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Maybe T Rich isn't a "power back"? His best play of the game was the screen pass where he had room to run. I really don't know what the deal is to be honest. Probably a combination of the line, play calling, and performance
    That's a good point for the whole playcalling during the game. Since Houston was bringing so much heat to us, why didn't we try more screen passes? Pretty sure would have gained us more first downs.
    Last edited by Johanvil; 11-04-2013 at 10:32 PM.

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    Eleazar, the thing with the OL is that it really needs fixing especially in the interior. Satele and McGlynn are garbage most of the time.
    But reading things like Richardson should be judged if we ever fix our line then proves we should have never traded in the first place for the certain player. A late round Vick Ballard serviceable type of player would look just great as well behind a very good OL

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Eleazar, the thing with the OL is that it really needs fixing especially in the interior. Satele and McGlynn are garbage most of the time.
    But reading things like Richardson should be judged if we ever fix our line then proves we should have never traded in the first place for the certain player. A late round Vick Ballard serviceable type of player would look just great as well behind a very good OL
    I would seriously take Ballard over T rich
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  31. #397

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I think he looks great in open space and does a great job of breaking tackles. I just think he has terrible vision that causes him to make the wrong reads. His problems seem to be related to slow decision making and he doesn't have the burst to make up for lost time. I don't think it's correctable, but we'll see.
    Last edited by imawhat; 11-04-2013 at 10:46 PM.

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  33. #398

    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't claim to be a football expert, but to me it seems Trent does a great job breaking the first tackle and he looks pretty ****ing fantastic when he gets into open space from my eye. I also think he is forced to run out of the jumbo set way too often while Brown often gets to run out of nicely spread out formations. Just my two cents.
    This.

    1. There are no holes for Trent to run through, because either there are no holes being opened, or there are too many bodies in the way for Trent to fit through. Brown looks like the better back right now because he hits the hole faster and is smaller than Trent, so those lack of holes in the line are not as obvious.

    2. When you get Trent out into open space, he's been dynamic. He makes people miss and when they finally get their hands on him, they can't bring him down.

    The key is to maximize his abilities, which they haven't done yet. Why not do more draw plays to allow the line more time to open up holes? Or screens, check downs? Get the ball in his hands and let him work in the open field. I've seen enough this year that he needs to play in a single back with this line in order to be effective, because having a FB in the way just doesn't work.

    Nothing I've seen makes me think he's a bust. Our line is horrendous and that's the biggest thing. Like we've all said, if the line is good and he still isn't getting good yards at that time, then we will all have no problem in saying he isn't good. But I refuse to do that now, because I think he's better than people are giving him credit for.

    (not sure why we're still arguing this, it's not like our opinions have changed...)
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  35. #399
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think he looks great in open space and does a great job of breaking tackles. I just think he has terrible vision that causes him to make the wrong reads. His problems seem to be related to slow decision making and he doesn't have the burst to make up for lost time. I don't think it's correctable, but we'll see.
    The thing is--with that offensive line there aren't ANY reads to be made a lot of times.

    I honestly think we need to run him out of the shotgun or single back formation a little more.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, I know what I see. I know what I've seen for a year and a half now. You guys masquerading around like you see football on a deeper level than the rest of us because you assume we aren't taking the crappy line, play calling, and formations into account are silly. He might not be as bad as he has been so far in his career, but he absolutely was not worth a first round pick.
    I'm starting to come to that side. I love Richardson, I want him to do well really badly. But to be worthy of a first round pick, you have to be worth a lot. No one is denying that he has talent, but I am denying that he is worthy of a first round pick as of now. The majority of the jury is still deliberating since we don't even have half of a season of Richardson to judge on, but the early results show he simply isn't worthy of a first round pick.

    Why do we get to pick and choose what players we use the o-line excuse, the formation excuse etc. with? I haven't heard anyone getting angry about not using DHB to his strengths, we just chastise him for dropping balls. I hope T-Rich gets better. But right now, I'm putting the responsibility square on his shoulders.
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