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Thread: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Ummm.. we did. His name is Ahmad Bradshaw. He's injured. We're down two RBs right now. The blah attitude towards RBs in this day and age is crazy. Most SB winners don't have a lame-duck rotation at RB. You gotta have some talent at the position. Ravens = Rice. Giants = Bradshaw/Jacobs. Indy = Addai/Rhodes. You can't ignore the position.
    Those guys you just listed, outside of Ray Rice, are average-to-solid NFL running backs.

    Oh, and you can't just cherry pick the ones that support your side of the story. The Packers won a Super Bowl with almost no running game to speak of.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    Trent Richardson has had two 20+ yard rushes in 331 attempts. 14 10+ yd runs. 33 rushes for loss. The games he's having in Indy are the games he was having in Cleveland. Last year the Cleveland line was rated 5th in the league. He saw 8 men in the box 17% of his touches(league average is 23). You absolutely cannot blame Cleveland's o-line for anything.

    Question, if Dammit Donald isn't a starter(he isn't, that's a unanimous thought) then what does it mean when he's outperforming Trent?
    The Browns line was ranked 5th in the league last year due to pass blocking not run blocking. They were an average run blocking line and teams didn't have to worry about that passing attack at all. OVerall they were ranked 24th in offense last year so teams didn't have to make them one dimensional because they had no dimension to their offense, hence why they didn't have to load the box agaisnt any of the Browns RB's.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Then sign an older veteran or trade a late round pick for someone else's backup who can block. Problem solved, first round pick saved.
    Why sign someone just to block, when you can get someone that blocks and runs? Sure there are other options out there, but they're out of the league waiting on someone to pick them up for a reason. I don't really see the need for retreads, that you know aren't going to give you much. I'd much rather take somewhat of a gamble and try to get a back that can produce in a number of ways.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Why sign someone just to block, when you can get someone that blocks and runs? Sure there are other options out there, but they're out of the league waiting on someone to pick them up for a reason. I don't really see the need for retreads, that you know aren't going to give you much. I'd much rather take somewhat of a gamble and try to get a back that can produce in a number of ways.
    I'm being serious when I ask this, and this is directed at anyone who wants to answer: What have you seen out of Trent Richardson that makes you think he is this good? He was picked third overall in the draft, okay. He certainly looks the part, I'll grant you. He produced like hell at Alabama behind some of the best offensive lines of the past 20 years in college football. The book is out on these recent Bama running backs in the NFL. Mark Ingram won a Heisman Trophy and has been positively awful in the NFL. Richardson, by all stats and measures, has not produced at even an above average level yet. Eddie Lacy has played like two games so far and is injured, so I don't know that you can take anything off of that yet. The reasons people give for Richardson's pedestrian numbers just look like excuses to me.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    It's been 2 games and our offensive line sucks. You do remember how awful they are?
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    It's been 2 games and our offensive line sucks. You do remember how awful they are?
    I'm fully aware of the pathetic nature of our offensive line, and if you read what I've posted, I'm willing to more or less throw out his two games in Indy. But his numbers are strikingly similar to what they were in Cleveland last year. Unfortunately for me, I live in a market where the Browns are the local team so I watch nearly all of their games, and did last year. I never saw anything out of Richardson that made me think he was anything special.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Those guys you just listed, outside of Ray Rice, are average-to-solid NFL running backs.

    Oh, and you can't just cherry pick the ones that support your side of the story. The Packers won a Super Bowl with almost no running game to speak of.
    They had Aaron Frickin Rodgers.

    You cherry-picked the one in recent history that needed very little, so I'd say the support behind my theory outweights the support for your theory. Most of those guys were first or second round picks, or at least very good RBs drafted late. Teams do use RBs, and they often are drafted pretty high. Or they snag one of the rare lower-round backs who just so happened to be really good. Either way, it's obvious that teams use good RBs. Most of your average late-round RBs don't make it very long.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Why sign someone just to block, when you can get someone that blocks and runs? Sure there are other options out there, but they're out of the league waiting on someone to pick them up for a reason. I don't really see the need for retreads, that you know aren't going to give you much. I'd much rather take somewhat of a gamble and try to get a back that can produce in a number of ways.
    I didn't really answer this, so here goes: It's a value thing for me. First off, it's abundantly clear that I don't value running backs as much as the rest of you and I think it is one position where you can find a lot of value in the later rounds of the draft. There are examples of finding gems at every position in the scrap heap, but with the focus on the passing game in today's NFL, I just don't think it would cost us much (if anything) in terms of wins if we went for a retread or a backup. If we traded a third round pick for Richardson, I'd be fine with that. That's a risk I would be willing to take. A second round pick I wouldn't love, and a first round pick I really don't like. I'm not a huge advocate of trading first round picks in the NFL to begin with, but if we were going to deal a first rounder, I would want to plug up a hole along the offensive line.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Ted. Joe. Jack. Ezekiel.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm being serious when I ask this, and this is directed at anyone who wants to answer: What have you seen out of Trent Richardson that makes you think he is this good? He was picked third overall in the draft, okay. He certainly looks the part, I'll grant you. He produced like hell at Alabama behind some of the best offensive lines of the past 20 years in college football. The book is out on these recent Bama running backs in the NFL. Mark Ingram won a Heisman Trophy and has been positively awful in the NFL. Richardson, by all stats and measures, has not produced at even an above average level yet. Eddie Lacy has played like two games so far and is injured, so I don't know that you can take anything off of that yet. The reasons people give for Richardson's pedestrian numbers just look like excuses to me.
    Where have I talked about how good Trent is? I don't know how good he is, to be honest. I think his numbers are down because he saw a stacked box in Cleveland, as no one fears their passing attack, and I know the Colts offensive line is bad. So given those two things, why would anyone expect runners to put up good numbers with them? I've always thought it was silly to evaluate a RB based off his ypc, as there are a lot of variables that go along with it. There's a reason why guys like Chris Johnson take their entire lines out for fancy dinners after the season is over, because they know how important the five guys up front are.

    I see dismissing logical reasons as to why numbers are down, as picking nits. I don't expect Trent to come in and be a 1000yd rusher. The line just isn't good enough. Trent's strength is power running, and fighting for the extra yards. With a crappy line, I think that's the best approach. I cannot imagine how awful the Colts running game would be, if Bradshaw went down for an extended amount of time and having to rely on Donald Brown. Between the OLine and his awful blocking, Luck would probaby have his sternum caved in.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    They had Aaron Frickin Rodgers.

    You cherry-picked the one in recent history that needed very little, so I'd say the support behind my theory outweights the support for your theory. Most of those guys were first or second round picks, or at least very good RBs drafted late. Teams do use RBs, and they often are drafted pretty high. Or they snag one of the rare lower-round backs who just so happened to be really good. Either way, it's obvious that teams use good RBs. Most of your average late-round RBs don't make it very long.
    We have Andrew Frickin' Luck. He will get there.

    I didn't really cherry pick, I was just posting a retort to your post. You can win a Super Bowl getting virtually nothing from your running attack. Is it ideal? Of course not. But it can be done.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    We have Andrew Frickin' Luck. He will get there.

    I didn't really cherry pick, I was just posting a retort to your post. You can win a Super Bowl getting virtually nothing from your running attack. Is it ideal? Of course not. But it can be done.
    The Colts just tried that approach for the last 10+ years with arguably the best QB to ever play the game, and fell short of expectations. I don't think you'll find much support for going back down that path, just two years removed from going out and getting a coaching staff with a different approach.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I didn't really answer this, so here goes: It's a value thing for me. First off, it's abundantly clear that I don't value running backs as much as the rest of you and I think it is one position where you can find a lot of value in the later rounds of the draft. There are examples of finding gems at every position in the scrap heap, but with the focus on the passing game in today's NFL, I just don't think it would cost us much (if anything) in terms of wins if we went for a retread or a backup. If we traded a third round pick for Richardson, I'd be fine with that. That's a risk I would be willing to take. A second round pick I wouldn't love, and a first round pick I really don't like. I'm not a huge advocate of trading first round picks in the NFL to begin with, but if we were going to deal a first rounder, I would want to plug up a hole along the offensive line.
    I have already posted your assumptions aren't true when looking for starting RB's. IT would be similar to me saying you can get a starting left tackle in the later rounds and pretty much everyone would laugh at me for making that assumption.

    I will post it again if you like. The average draft position in the NFL for a starting RB is 61 and the ADP for a left tackle is 49.5. So basically 11 spot difference from one of the least important positions to the NFL to one of the most important positions in the NFL.

    Quite frankly your assumption is false and even more so its false for what Chuck and the front office want to be which is a power running team. Most teams in the NFL don't want to be that which is fine but the value of our FO will place on running backs is much higher than you so I would figure you might need to come to grips with that as long as Chuck is the head coach.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Where have I talked about how good Trent is? I don't know how good he is, to be honest. I think his numbers are down because he saw a stacked box in Cleveland, as no one fears their passing attack, and I know the Colts offensive line is bad. So given those two things, why would anyone expect runners to put up good numbers with them? I've always thought it was silly to evaluate a RB based off his ypc, as there are a lot of variables that go along with it. There's a reason why guys like Chris Johnson take their entire lines out for fancy dinners after the season is over, because they know how important the five guys up front are.

    I see dismissing logical reasons as to why numbers are down, as picking nits. I don't expect Trent to come in and be a 1000yd rusher. The line just isn't good enough. Trent's strength is power running, and fighting for the extra yards. With a crappy line, I think that's the best approach. I cannot imagine how awful the Colts running game would be, if Bradshaw went down for an extended amount of time and having to rely on Donald Brown. Between the OLine and his awful blocking, Luck would probaby have his sternum caved in.
    I'm not dismissing them outright--I'm sure having no passing attack to speak of in Cleveland and our atrocious offensive line absolutely affect Richardson's production. But this leads me back to another point I have consistently made: The real problem is the offensive line. Why not use that pick, if they were so intent on dealing it, to upgrade the O-line? To me that helps keep Andrew Luck in one piece and improves the running game regardless of who is back there. Is it possible they tried and were unsuccessful in doing so? Sure, and we have no way of knowing they weren't shopping around for top flight guards and tackles.
    Last edited by cdash; 10-01-2013 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Colts just tried that approach for the last 10+ years with arguably the best QB to ever play the game, and fell short of expectations. I don't think you'll find much support for going back down that path, just two years removed from going out and getting a coaching staff with a different approach.
    They won a Super Bowl. They played in another. According to Kid Minneapolis, they did have decent RBs during at least part of that time you just referenced.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm fully aware of the pathetic nature of our offensive line, and if you read what I've posted, I'm willing to more or less throw out his two games in Indy. But his numbers are strikingly similar to what they were in Cleveland last year. Unfortunately for me, I live in a market where the Browns are the local team so I watch nearly all of their games, and did last year. I never saw anything out of Richardson that made me think he was anything special.
    He was a rookie last year. How many guys are flawless in their rookie seasons? Plus, as has been mentioned, the box was consistently stacked against him.

    It's not like we traded a first rounder for a fourth year player. We are essentially using next year's first round pick to draft Richardson, but are getting his services right now. That's the way I look at it.

    I just can't buy that running backs aren't important after watching the final years of Manning's career here when we had such an unimpressive running attack. I remember a certain playoff game in San Diego five years ago where we failed to convert on a third and two that would have put the game away. Our running attack was so bad that we decided to throw it instead (and failed to convert).

    In playoff games, you need a running game to pick up crucial yards.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I have already posted your assumptions aren't true when looking for starting RB's. IT would be similar to me saying you can get a starting left tackle in the later rounds and pretty much everyone would laugh at me for making that assumption.

    I will post it again if you like. The average draft position in the NFL for a starting RB is 61 and the ADP for a left tackle is 49.5. So basically 11 spot difference from one of the least important positions to the NFL to one of the most important positions in the NFL.

    Quite frankly your assumption is false and even more so its false for what Chuck and the front office want to be which is a power running team. Most teams in the NFL don't want to be that which is fine but the value of our FO will place on running backs is much higher than you so I would figure you might need to come to grips with that as long as Chuck is the head coach.
    Well, let's use context here for my position. Without actually doing the research and just glancing at the top listed RBs for each team, I'll grant you that over half of them were former first or second round picks. The numbers back that up. Let's take a deeper dive now. How many of those guys are playing for the team that originally drafted them? Again, a quick glance and without googling each player, here's the list I came up with: Peterson, Spiller, Rice, Jones-Drew, Chris Johnson, Moreno, McFadden, Mathews, Forte (?), DeAngelo Williams, Gore. There's 11. It's possible I'm missing a few. How many of them lived up to their draft position? How long did they sustain their high level of play? You all blasted the guy that said the shelf life for a good running back is about 5 years, and while I don't necessarily agree with that, they do have a shorter period of time where they are at their peak. How many of them are workhorse backs?

    You guys can disagree with it all you want, and that's fine. I realize my opinion on the matter is not a popular one.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm not dismissing them outright--I'm sure having no passing attack to speak of in Cleveland and our atrocious offensive line absolutely affect Richardson's production. But this leads me back to another point I have consistently made: The real problem is the offensive line. Why not use that pick, if they were so intent on dealing it, to upgrade the O-line? To me that helps keep Andrew Luck in one piece and improves the running game regardless of who is back there. Is it possible they tried and were unsuccessful in doing so? Sure, and we have no way of knowing they weren't shopping around for top flight guards and tackles.
    Do you realize how much money we spent on the line in this off season? We have 2 starters missing and one is done for the season. We have also spent 2 picks last year on upgrading it one of which has played signfiicant minutes at guard and done well.

    For all the moaning about our line we are 4th in yards per attempt.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Well, let's use context here for my position. Without actually doing the research and just glancing at the top listed RBs for each team, I'll grant you that over half of them were former first or second round picks. The numbers back that up. Let's take a deeper dive now. How many of those guys are playing for the team that originally drafted them? Again, a quick glance and without googling each player, here's the list I came up with: Peterson, Spiller, Rice, Jones-Drew, Chris Johnson, Moreno, McFadden, Mathews, Forte (?), DeAngelo Williams, Gore. There's 11. It's possible I'm missing a few. How many of them lived up to their draft position? How long did they sustain their high level of play? You all blasted the guy that said the shelf life for a good running back is about 5 years, and while I don't necessarily agree with that, they do have a shorter period of time where they are at their peak. How many of them are workhorse backs?

    You guys can disagree with it all you want, and that's fine. I realize my opinion on the matter is not a popular one.
    I believe the actual number is 15 and McCoy would be on that list as well as David Wilson. Is the point you are making that its hit or miss with RB's different from anyother position drafted in the first 2 rounds? I would imagine its the same as any position.

    The hard work has already been done for you. Very few teams get a workhorse back in the late rounds and even guys like Foster who fall not due to talent but on charachter issues that teams shy away from him so he goes undrafted.

    Again the ADP shows that its a myth you just can't let go of.

    As far as what is Trent really good in I would say 2 out the 3 things he needs to be good in. Pass catching, pass blocking and he is average right now for running but the caveat is that he is an above average goal line running back.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 10-01-2013 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He was a rookie last year. How many guys are flawless in their rookie seasons? Plus, as has been mentioned, the box was consistently stacked against him.

    It's not like we traded a first rounder for a fourth year player. We are essentially using next year's first round pick to draft Richardson, but are getting his services right now. That's the way I look at it.

    I just can't buy that running backs aren't important after watching the final years of Manning's career here when we had such an unimpressive running attack. I remember a certain playoff game in San Diego five years ago where we failed to convert on a third and two that would have put the game away. Our running attack was so bad that we decided to throw it instead (and failed to convert).

    In playoff games, you need a running game to pick up crucial yards.
    You mean like how Dom should have been the Colts MVP for that Super Bowl.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    For all the moaning about our line we are 4th in yards per attempt.
    So why is Richardson still only averaging 3 yards per carry if our offensive line isn't that bad?

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Any one of us on this board could have run through the hole the offensive line gave Brown for his big run on Sunday....against Jacksonville.


    Trent needs to learn timing, cut backs, etc. At the very least, the dude obviously finishes runs, I believe his biggest impact will arguably be how much he wears defenses downs. He hits defenders back when he runs and that will help the other guys getting carries and Luck.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I believe the actual number is 15 and McCoy would be on that list as well as David Wilson. Is the point you are making that its hit or miss with RB's different from anyother position drafted in the first 2 rounds? I would imagine its the same as any position.

    The hard work has already been done for you. Very few teams get a workhorse back in the late rounds and even guys like Foster who fall not due to talent but on charachter issues that teams shy away from him so he goes undrafted.

    Again the ADP shows that its a myth you just can't let go of.

    As far as what is Trent really good in I would say 2 out the 3 things he needs to be good in. Pass catching, pass blocking and he is average right now for running but the caveat is that he is an above average goal line running back.
    Good lord David Wilson was a first round pick? Holy christ that's the revelation of the thread so far.

    Maybe explaining it like this will be better, because you are hung up on this average draft position, which I think you can poke holes in, much like you can with Richardson's average yards per carry numbers.

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...cedented-trade

    Bill Barnwell touched on some of my concerns in his breakdown of the trade and since he is good at writing, knows more about football than I do, and explains his position better, I'll just post some of his thoughts:

    • Running back is a fungible position. To be quite blunt, the Browns could have signed just about any college free agent off the street and gotten the 3.5 yards per carry Richardson's produced so far as a pro. Even if Richardson raises his game a bit in Indianapolis, there's been nothing about his level of play that the Browns couldn't get from a cheap platoon of backs. They're already bringing in Willis McGahee for a physical on Thursday; McGahee isn't a star, but he's a player who can produce reliably as a running back without making a lot of money. The Browns would probably pay McGahee about what Richardson will make this year without any long-term commitment, and they get the added bonus of acquiring an extremely valuable first-round pick in what could be a stacked draft.
    That is very much a point I have been trying to convey. Richardson's production, to this point, has been replacement level. He goes on:

    For one, the Colts are giving up an enormous asset — their first-round pick in a stacked draft — for a player at the league's most fungible position. It's entirely possible that Indy could have dipped into the free-agent pool for McGahee and gotten similar (if not superior) production without giving away a pick at all, or they could have dealt a lower pick in the draft for a player like Maurice Jones-Drew, who could have been dragged away from the Jaguars for something like a third-rounder. (MJD is admittedly a little injured at the moment.)
    To be fair, Barnwell wasn't nearly as sour on the trade as I apparently am. Some of the concerns he raises don't particularly concern me (he mentions possible character concerns, work ethic issues, or an injury we don't know about--I don't really put much stock into that). His final opinion is tilted towards the Browns, but more neutral than my own:

    I think it's more likely that the Browns are happy about this trade five years from now than the Colts are, although I don't think it's a slam dunk in either direction. It tells us interesting things about where each organization is going over the next several seasons, provides a perhaps-needed change of scenery for a football player who was expected to be dominant, and it gives us a trade situation that we've never seen before. Not bad for a Wednesday night, Mr. Irsay.
    Last edited by cdash; 10-01-2013 at 04:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    The thing I love most about the NBA and the NFL is that every year the NFL draft is stacked and every year the NBA draft isn't. OK media dudez

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