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Thread: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Gamble, saw your post, I actually found those stats in an article!

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    You aren't comparing apples to apples though. The Colts recent first round picks in the 20s were made by a different regime, save for the Werner pick, which is too early to call one way or the other. Also, I don't think this pick is going to end up in the 20s. I said in my post that I think this team is staring at a 6-10 record this season, which will most definitely not put them in the 20s.
    Regime aside, there's only a certain amount of talent available after the first 5-10 picks. Even if Indy goes 6-10 like you think, they're still giving up a 12th pick? By that time, the blue chips are off the board and you're officially playing the lottery, hoping to hit it big. And regime aside, the difference between the "best" and worst" drafting "regimes" out there is a lot smaller than people want to admit. Even the best FOs bust on many picks. The draft is a crap shoot, and a team is lucky to pull 2 people from a single draft that have any long-term benefit to the team that drafted them. It's been the norm in the last decade for teams to get a TON in trades for a draft pick, and I've just never understood this. Like Marshall Faulk. We got a 2 and a 5 for him. Kiddin' me? The Rams took us to the cleaners on that one. There's no way on earth those two picks were ever going to be more valuable than Marshall Faulk, before or after the picks. Anquan Boldin, massive part of the most recent SB run by the Ravens, was traded for a 6th-rounder, ended up being Theo Riddick, who was then traded to Seattle and then finally the Lions. You know.... he's that gu---- waitaminute, no one knows who he is, and he'll be lucky to make the Lions long-term. Meanwhile Boldin comes out with a 200+ yard game to start the season. Even if Boldin doesn't catch another pass the rest of the year, he's worth more than Riddick. I just never understood the value people place on these draft picks beyond 10. Sure, you MIGHT get someone.... chances are probly not. And when I say "probly" not", I mean, if you draft 8 people, you might get 2 serviceable players beyond a year from now. Why not use those picks to acquire some young, cheap, known quantities in the NFL, guys who came in to an NFL system and proved that they could perform at this level for awhile. It almost makes me sick sometimes to see a proven veteran get traded for like a 4th rounder, knowing full well that 4th-rounder has about a 10% chance of ever proving to be of more value.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-20-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    It's remarkable how torn people seem to be on this trade. It's probably one of the most polarizing deals I've seen in a long time. Some are convinced Richardson is a future multi-time Pro Bowler; others seem to think he's hot garbage, or mediocre at best.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    I wouldn't say it's split. The majority of people think the Colts won this in a landslide, the other side of the coin is a small side. I've been glued to the 4 main SiriusXM sports talk stations, the topics have been heavily dominated by the trade, and most people are *****ing about the Browns and agreeing the Colts got a helluva back.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-20-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    As an aside... why is Grigson sweating balls and winded in every clip I see? Lol... it's like he's straight out of the gym every time he steps up to the camera. He has to be the most physically imposing GM in sports... he's a mountain of a man.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    The media is probably more split than the general populace. I would say the overwhelming reaction from the average fan is that the browns just browned all over themselves.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Actually, I'd say if there was any concern at all it should be why the Browns would agree to this deal... Makes you wonder if they know something negative about him that isn't known outside the lockerroom. On paper this is a great deal for the Colts...
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Regime aside, there's only a certain amount of talent available after the first 5-10 picks. Even if Indy goes 6-10 like you think, they're still giving up a 12th pick? By that time, the blue chips are off the board and you're officially playing the lottery, hoping to hit it big. And regime aside, the difference between the "best" and worst" drafting "regimes" out there is a lot smaller than people want to admit. Even the best FOs bust on many picks. The draft is a crap shoot, and a team is lucky to pull 2 people from a single draft that have any long-term benefit to the team that drafted them. It's been the norm in the last decade for teams to get a TON in trades for a draft pick, and I've just never understood this. Like Marshall Faulk. We got a 2 and a 5 for him. Kiddin' me? The Rams took us to the cleaners on that one. There's no way on earth those two picks were ever going to be more valuable than Marshall Faulk, before or after the picks. Anquan Boldin, massive part of the most recent SB run by the Ravens, was traded for a 6th-rounder, ended up being Theo Riddick, who was then traded to Seattle and then finally the Lions. You know.... he's that gu---- waitaminute, no one knows who he is, and he'll be lucky to make the Lions long-term. Meanwhile Boldin comes out with a 200+ yard game to start the season. Even if Boldin doesn't catch another pass the rest of the year, he's worth more than Riddick. I just never understood the value people place on these draft picks beyond 10. Sure, you MIGHT get someone.... chances are probly not. And when I say "probly" not", I mean, if you draft 8 people, you might get 2 serviceable players beyond a year from now. Why not use those picks to acquire some young, cheap, known quantities in the NFL, guys who came in to an NFL system and proved that they could perform at this level for awhile. It almost makes me sick sometimes to see a proven veteran get traded for like a 4th rounder, knowing full well that 4th-rounder has about a 10% chance of ever proving to be of more value.
    Those two situations you mentioned were not about getting equal value but were about the salaries of those two players. With Faulk's case, there was the threat of holding out which Polian didn't want to deal with, Marshall heldout with the Rams after they traded for him. As to Boldin's case, the Ravens faced cutting him or trading him for anything because they couldn't pay him anymore.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    Those two situations you mentioned were not about getting equal value but were about the salaries of those two players.
    No, it wasn't. Faulk signed a smaller contract than Edgerrin James the exact same year. Edge's rookie contract was a 7 year, $49 million contract, while Faulk's contract with St. Louis was a 7 year, $45 million contract. And why wouldn't Faulk be something worth dealing with? It's not like Faulk produced badly, and he went on to have a Hall of Fame career. I loved Edge, but we're talking Marshall Faulk. The centerpiece of the Greatest Show on Turf. It always seemed like Polian just wanted to prove a point, so he shipped Faulk off. For a 2 and a 5. Mike Peterson and Brad Scioli. Meanwhile, we *could* have actually kept Faulk for similar money, and used the 4th pick on someone other than Edge. But the main point I want to make is what we actually got for Faulk --- Peanuts. Because draft picks are so stinking overvalued in trades. I don't mind shipping Faulk off, if it's a matter of system/personality fit. But for a 2 and a 5? He was worth more than that. At that point in his career, he had 5 seasons of 1500-1800 yards from scrimmage and was good for 10-15 touchdowns a year.... he was damn good. It wasn't a money thing. We were going to drop money on a RB, regardless.

    I can buy the Boldin situation.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-20-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    No, it wasn't. Faulk signed a smaller contract than Edgerrin James the exact same year. Edge's rookie contract was a 7 year, $49 million contract, while Faulk's contract with St. Louis was a 7 year, $45 million contract. And why wouldn't Faulk be something worth dealing with? It's not like Faulk produced badly, and he went on to have a Hall of Fame career. I loved Edge, but we're talking Marshall Faulk. The centerpiece of the Greatest Show on Turf. It always seemed like Polian just wanted to prove a point, so he shipped Faulk off. For a 2 and a 5. Mike Peterson and Brad Scioli. Meanwhile, we *could* have actually kept Faulk for similar money, and used the 4th pick on someone other than Edge. But the main point I want to make is what we actually got for Faulk --- Peanuts. Because draft picks are so stinking overvalued in trades. I don't mind shipping Faulk off, if it's a matter of system/personality fit. But for a 2 and a 5? He was worth more than that. It wasn't a money thing. We were going to drop money on a RB, regardless.

    I can buy the Boldin situation.
    Before the injury Edge was well on his way to being the better player.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Before the injury Edge was well on his way to being the better player.
    That's a different debate, which is also not necessarily correct. I'd say between the two backs, you can't really say one or the other was clearly better. And Faulk got a ring, legitimately. He was the centerpiece of that team. He was *amazing*. And I will also say that at the end of the day, Faulk racked up a better career, but for the sake of argument, I will concede that the two backs were fairly equal in impact.

    But either way, it's not my point. The point is the over-valuation of draft picks in trades.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-20-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    Oh yeah because it was all Joe Flacco who led Baltimore's offense to a Super Bowl championship and Ray Rice had little to do with it...

    The importance of the running game has not changed. You need a solid RB if you want your offense to be very good and well balanced. You can't rely on throwing on every down, no matter how great your QB is.

    As far as us, we were desperate for a RB for the future. Ahmad is signed to a one year deal and who knows with Vick now. Was he ever going to be our featured back moving forward?

    Even though we gave up a lot, look at what we got in return. Getting Trent is huge for us moving forward.
    It was Bolden who carried them.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I wouldn't say it's split. The majority of people think the Colts won this in a landslide, the other side of the coin is a small side.
    There's a poll on Football's Future asking who got the better of the deal. As of right now, there's been 207 votes. The results:

    42% (88 votes) say Cleveland.
    36% (76 votes) say Indy.
    20% (43 votes) say it's even.

    The media may think it's heavily favored the Colts, but the media still thinks of Trent Richardson as the man who demolished opposition at Alabama, and the #3 overall pick in the draft. There's no question his rookie season was slightly underwhelming and his stock has dropped since then.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Given the fact that this team is still rebuilding giving up a first round pick for a guy who averages 3.6 yards per carry is a tough pill to swallow. With that said I fully expect him to improve now that he has a real passing game and a real QB leading the team.

    I really cannot judge this trade until the end of the season to see how he produces. If he is still sitting at 3.6 yards per carry with average play like he did in Cleveland then the Browns took us to the woodshed. If we can get around 1000 yards and increase that yards per carry to at least 4.6 I would feel much more comfortable giving up a first round pick as a rebuilding team.

    Picks are hard to part with given the fact your teams long term health depends on the draft. Trades and free agency is not going to sustain your team for the long term. Typically trades and free agency can put a team over the edge, but it is not going to keep you competitive for the long haul. When do you do make a trade like this you better be damn sure that player will be a stud. The thing that sunk the Polians was that they really started to completely whiff on first round picks and left the cupboard bare of talent.

    We shall see at the end of the year. I am not going to say Grigson is a genius, but at the same time I am not going to call him an idiot either.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    There's a poll on Football's Future asking who got the better of the deal. As of right now, there's been 207 votes. The results:

    42% (88 votes) say Cleveland.
    36% (76 votes) say Indy.
    20% (43 votes) say it's even.

    The media may think it's heavily favored the Colts, but the media still thinks of Trent Richardson as the man who demolished opposition at Alabama, and the #3 overall pick in the draft. There's no question his rookie season was slightly underwhelming and his stock has dropped since then.
    How many people actually watch Browns football? I know I don't but I still know Trent was in the toughest division to run the ball in the AFC and he had a bad QB and a medicore line. I mean there was a reason why a quarter of his yards were off of passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    There's a poll on Football's Future asking who got the better of the deal. As of right now, there's been 207 votes. The results:

    42% (88 votes) say Cleveland.
    36% (76 votes) say Indy.
    20% (43 votes) say it's even.

    The media may think it's heavily favored the Colts, but the media still thinks of Trent Richardson as the man who demolished opposition at Alabama, and the #3 overall pick in the draft. There's no question his rookie season was slightly underwhelming and his stock has dropped since then.
    Who? I've never even heard of this site. Is it hosted in Cleveland?

    The thousands of people in the SiriusXM radio audience severely outnumber the 207 Browns fans who voted on that poll.
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    There's a poll on Football's Future asking who got the better of the deal. As of right now, there's been 207 votes. The results:

    42% (88 votes) say Cleveland.
    36% (76 votes) say Indy.
    20% (43 votes) say it's even.

    The media may think it's heavily favored the Colts, but the media still thinks of Trent Richardson as the man who demolished opposition at Alabama, and the #3 overall pick in the draft. There's no question his rookie season was slightly underwhelming and his stock has dropped since then.
    Richardson picked up 1300 yards of offense and 12 TDs in 15 games as a rookie.

    Adrian Peterson picked up a whopping 200 more yards of offense and scored 1 more whole TD, granted he played in one less game, but we're also not asking Trent to be AP.

    Ray Rice had 600 yards total offense as a rookie. Arian Foster only got into 6 games. Lesean McCoy 900 yards of total offense as a rookie. Jamaal Charles only put up about 600 yards of offense.

    3 Running backs then that are active had truly spectacular rookie years by these crazy standards, AP, Doug Martin, and Alfred Morris.

    I'm sorry, but I just don't see this underwhelming rookie year bull crap. 1300 yards of total offense + 12 TDs? Man if Trent had done that on the Colts he would have been considered the second coming.

    Not to mention he did this on a team, QB'd by a guy who is a running joke for being 30 as a rookie and who's best outside weapon was....Josh Gordon? I bet 90% of this board will go, "Who?" when they read that name. Like I said, if I had the time I bet you could prove that Trent was top 5 RB in terms of seeing 8 or 9 in the box last year.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 09-20-2013 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Oh and yes, I know his YPC were not exciting, but the guy did not get great blocking, he was in the 8th in the NFL last year in yards after contact which is way more important to me than what a simple average says.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Of course, Trent isn't really going to get better blocking here honestly. What he will get however is a competent QB which will allow Trent to not run against 7 or 8 in the box
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    Of course, Trent isn't really going to get better blocking here honestly. What he will get however is a competent QB which will allow Trent to not run against 7 or 8 in the box
    Exactly, and that is where his yards after contact numbers become even more valuable in our offense. Now Trent's first contact isn't coming against a DE followed up by a LB, he's hopefully getting to lay a hit on a LB, and then have a chance at the second level.

    There is a 100% fact about having a guy like Mr. Wayne on your team, if a team slams the box and leaves him single covered in a crucial moment, he's going to beat the coverage.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Haven't watched Trent Richardson in the NFL since that game he played against the Colts last year where he had eight total rushing yards (his career low I think). I don't know about this trade. I remember chuckling when the Browns drafted Richardson, thinking only lesser evolved franchises like the Browns would be dumb enough to burn a top 3 pick on a running back in 2012. Well the Colts just did essentially the same thing. The Grigson regime worries me. I have watched the Washington Redskins trade draft picks (especially for overrated skill players) like hot cakes for years, and it still affects their quite poor depth to this day. Now I hope Grigson leads the Colts the promised land as much as anyone, but I'm a bit worried. I liked the Polian model of building through the draft a lot better. Now, once Polian forgot how to draft or let his idiot soon draft that went to ****, but for a few years it really worked.

    I think Bill Simmons is a charlatan who somehow gets paid for writing unintelligible stuff at times, but he has a good point here:


    As for "luxury" running backs like Trent Richardson, teams have spent 13 top-16 picks on backs since 2002: Richardson (3), C.J. Spiller (9), Ryan Mathews (12), Knowshon Moreno (12), Jonathan Stewart (13), McFadden (4), Marshawn Lynch (12), Reggie Bush (2), Peterson (7), Ronnie Brown (2), Cedric Benson (4), Cadillac Williams (5), William Green (16). It's a grisly list. Only Peterson and Lynch made it. Bush and McFadden kinda sorta made it. Spiller made it in the "everyone overpaid for him in fantasy this year" sense. And that's it. Leading to …
    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/.../game-changers

    So it really is a fallacy that drafting a RB in the NFL "lottery" means there is a very good chance that guy will be elite. In fact the opposite is true.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Barnwell and Simmons both pretty much touched on why I didn't like the trade. They explained it much more eloquently than I did.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    There's a poll on Football's Future asking who got the better of the deal. As of right now, there's been 207 votes. The results:

    42% (88 votes) say Cleveland.
    36% (76 votes) say Indy.
    20% (43 votes) say it's even.

    The media may think it's heavily favored the Colts, but the media still thinks of Trent Richardson as the man who demolished opposition at Alabama, and the #3 overall pick in the draft. There's no question his rookie season was slightly underwhelming and his stock has dropped since then.
    I've been a lurker on that site for a few years (for some reason, unbeknownst to me, they won't let me register). The site has about 5 Colts fans and they don't seem to be very involved in the first place. There are a good number of posters who always rag on the Colts (many think Irsay is annoying, Baltimore fans still hate them, ect.). There is a huge amount of Andrew Luck hate on the site (I just don't get it). Peyton seems to be much more liked and respected than he was just a few years ago (I wonder why).

    It is just not a very Colts friendly site (probably a good thing that they don't let me sign up, I suppose). I would take the poll with a grain of salt.


    p.s. seriously the Luck hate, by a solid group of posters, is just ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Merz View Post
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    I've been a lurker on that site for a few years (for some reason, unbeknownst to me, they won't let me register). The site has about 5 Colts fans and they don't seem to be very involved in the first place. There are a good number of posters who always rag on the Colts (many think Irsay is annoying, Baltimore fans still hate them, ect.). There is a huge amount of Andrew Luck hate on the site (I just don't get it). Peyton seems to be much more liked and respected than he was just a few years ago (I wonder why).

    It is just not a very Colts friendly site (probably a good thing that they don't let me sign up, I suppose). I would take the poll with a grain of salt.


    p.s. seriously the Luck hate, by a solid group of posters, is just ridiculous.
    why would they hate Luck? I could understand it from Washington's fanbase I guess, he'll be forever linked to RG3, but just a bunch of general fans?

  37. #150
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    Default Re: Trent Richardson to Colts for 1st round pick

    Aha... So OldBlu has a website!?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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