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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    It tells me the why but not really the direction that we think this is supposed to go.
    Personally, I think the direction needs to be toward both sides being more civil to each other. Both Granger and Lance are great players (or potentially). Bird, Hibbert, and who know who else think the starting job is a legitimate competition. Those of us on PD who feel the same should not get bashed.

    In terms of direction of the discussion, I think it will be a year long dialogue. Will the firepower of Granger's offense truly send us up even a higher level, or will we lose a bit of the magic and chemistry we had last year? Will we notice the glaring hole of Lance's contribution or will it not be that big of a deal? Will Lance (or Danny) in the second unit revolutionize the bench in such a way that everyone is happy?

    These are questions we don't know yet. And their answers will determine who ends games and our playoff rotations. It's a d@mn good problem to have and I look forward to the discussion.

    Again, I think the dialogue will be more civil if "our" side is not denigrated so much.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Hold on now that I think about it the whole Mckeyfan is about Derrick McKey isn't it? Grrrrrr... Just kidding.
    I feel certain any supposed animosity fully ended when the name Satan was transferred to a more deserving individual.



    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Anyway can't we all just love the Pacers and appreciate that this is really a special team and that we are all far more worried about this than they are.

    I'm realistic btw, I know this is Granger's last hurrah so I'm not going to lie I want there to be some appreciation for a guy who signed a long term extension with a bad team when he was at the near zenith of his career and never once publicly whined about it or the situation.

    That is one of the reasons I love him as a player and I know that is one of the reasons Bird has been so loyal to him as well.
    There is another layer behind the Granger/Lance fears, and it is probably not that valid, but I think it is real. Granger represents the era of him who shall not be named (except by the term formerly given to Derrick Mckey).

    As I have noted before, that era rubbed off a bit on Danny. I also get a little of the JO vibe from Danny. Not much but a little. We played basketball the wrong way, the very wrong way, arguably the very worst way, for several years. It turned around when Vogel took over and we got a taste of Danny playing the right way, but he didn't heal overnight.

    I'll say it here: when Danny went down and Lance stepped in, I felt a sense of "the right way" happening on our team in a way I hadn't seen it in years and years. It was this soothing feeling, like hot chocolate on a cold winter's day. It wasn't just Lance's defense. It was Lance's ability to get the ball to the right player and the team as a whole finding really good percentage shots. Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised if some other "Lance fans" will confirm that feeling.

    This is a little unfair to Danny, because he did change to a large degree when the culture changed. And it is true that the team playing so much "the right way" last year has more to it than Lance. It was Vogel's first full year with a training camp. Roy and Paul matured a year, Hill got better at the point, and West got fully healed. But Lance also played a role.

    For those who feel the way I do, the worst fear is that Granger doesn't crank up his defense to a higher gear like the rest of the team has, and that his tendency toward threes, quick attempts early in the clock, and shot selection that doesn't include a few passes first will affect both the chemistry and effectiveness of the team. None of those concerns may be valid, but they exist for those of us traumatized by the JOB years.

    I like and respect Danny Granger. I am hoping his addition takes us to another level and we have the firepower next year to win a championship. I truly do. I also look forward to seeing Lance get more touches in the second unit, if that's where he'll be. But doggonit, I will be watching what happens at the end of games, and if it looks like we've lost that magic from last year, I will be frustrated. Very frustrated.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 09-27-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Here's all I want. There are good reasons to want Lance to start. A TON of good reasons to like Lance. That's awesome. I like Lance too. If you (this is you-anybody, not you-McKeyfan) want Lance to start, why not talk about Lance? Tell us the things he does really well that you want to see more of. I'm down with that. But if you're all about Lance, why spend time talking about Danny?

    There are definitely people on the board who think the Pacers will be better with Danny starting. I'm one of them. But these people don't, for the most part, try to make the case by trashing Lance.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    or will we lose a bit of the magic and chemistry we had last year?
    People were talking about the same magic and chemistry about the 11-12 starting 5 too. I think chemistry is the last thing we need to worry about as it is something that both groups got a lot of praised for, in fact I think the 11-12 group got more praise for their chemistry than 12-13.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Seeing the chemistry of last year and the offensive grease Lance brings to the team, I am concerned what happens if Lance is replaced by Danny when it counts -- at the end of games. (who starts, etc., is much less of an issue for me.)
    Our chemistry was amazing in 11-12 as well
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    People were talking about the same magic and chemistry about the 11-12 starting 5 too. I think chemistry is the last thing we need to worry about as it is something that both groups got a lot of praised for, in fact I think the 11-12 group got more praise for their chemistry than 12-13.
    Isn't that the same group that had "Mr locker room problems" in DJ and "I only want to start" in Darren Collison? I'm not sure were are you getting all your info from but all that info is wrong.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    It's almost as if '11-12 season didn't happen for most of you. The starting 5 was the highest rated 5 man combination in the league just as it was last year. Once Hill replaced DC, we even kicked it up another notch.

    That year we were a very deliberate, yet efficient offensive team (due to our high FTA, and ability to score in the paint) while also still being a very strong defensive team as well. All that was missing from that team was another consistent star type of sure that could get buckets on the perimeter.

    Last season we relies heavily on our defense bc our offense wasn't quite as good--as in the bottom 3rd of a lot of offensive categories. You can't stop everybody, esp when you get to the playoffs. What was our team missing last year? Some consistent outside shooting/scoring to compliment our new star in the making (at the time) in Paul.

    I'm not sure where the fear of chemistry comes up with Danny being in the game when it counts because we were a more well rounded team during the 11-12 season than we were last year. I'm NOT saying we were necessarily better, just more well rounded and efficient offensively.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 09-28-2013 at 06:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I wish someone would compile and compare the stats of the offense of the last two year.

    I know I have compared our Effective Shooting Percentage. And last year we were 22 and the year before we were 23. Our field goal percentage was 43.6 for 26th in the league last year. It was 43.8% the year before for 24th (The whole league was down due to the many back-to-backs in a shortened season).

    Offensive Efficiency. Points per 100 percentage was pretty good. Because we went to the Free Throw Line (23.6 attempts for 8th in the league). And maybe that is how we are going to score points. We are never going to be a high pace team (possessions per game), strictly because we make people work on offense.

    The one stat that is going to be better this year if Danny remains healthy is three point percentage. Last year we were 22nd second in the league with 34.6%. Two years ago we were 36.8%. That is ONE DIMENSION () that Danny will help us in and we can't argue that.

    That is why we will be a better team with a healthy Granger whether he starts, finishes, or whatever. That if he is healthy, I think Danny will have the highest percentages since 2008-2009. But the percentage that will matter more than anything is winning percentage.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Isn't that the same group that had "Mr locker room problems" in DJ and "I only want to start" in Darren Collison? I'm not sure were are you getting all your info from but all that info is wrong.
    Chemistry in comparison the the Sacramento Kings? In comparison to the JOB era?

    No this team, despite a couple of whiners, have chemistry.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Regarding chemistry, I think we can all agree that this year looks even better than the last couple. Watch the Kevin Lee interview, if you haven't: he's pretty straight-up about this being potentially the best chemistry of any Pacer team ever. Also, I note that none of the remaining Pacers seem particularly broken up about losing Tyler and DJ.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    At best Mattie in another thread (quite possibly while intoxicated) made a remark disparaging the anti Danny crowd
    Well, I apologize if I did do that guys. I am a dick.

    Anywho, just gotta say it wasn't because of the booze, because believe it or not this drunken clown drinks no longer. It has been 7 months since I've drank. I quit. No AA or anything like that, I just quit. tired of self medicating. Anywho, carry on folks.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I wish someone would compile and compare the stats of the offense of the last two year.

    I know I have compared our Effective Shooting Percentage. And last year we were 22 and the year before we were 23. Our field goal percentage was 43.6 for 26th in the league last year. It was 43.8% the year before for 24th (The whole league was down due to the many back-to-backs in a shortened season).

    Offensive Efficiency. Points per 100 percentage was pretty good. Because we went to the Free Throw Line (23.6 attempts for 8th in the league). And maybe that is how we are going to score points. We are never going to be a high pace team (possessions per game), strictly because we make people work on offense.

    The one stat that is going to be better this year if Danny remains healthy is three point percentage. Last year we were 22nd second in the league with 34.6%. Two years ago we were 36.8%. That is ONE DIMENSION () that Danny will help us in and we can't argue that.

    That is why we will be a better team with a healthy Granger whether he starts, finishes, or whatever. That if he is healthy, I think Danny will have the highest percentages since 2008-2009. But the percentage that will matter more than anything is winning percentage.
    The reason we had a better offensive efficiency rating 2 years ago was because we went from being a low turnover team to being an extremely high turnover team. Paul needed more motion than Danny did to help him score, so Vogel switched up the offense. I think it will be a change for the better if we can get the turnovers down and keep them down consistently. I think it helped all of our guards and wings last year.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Regarding chemistry, I think we can all agree that this year looks even better than the last couple. Watch the Kevin Lee interview, if you haven't: he's pretty straight-up about this being potentially the best chemistry of any Pacer team ever. Also, I note that none of the remaining Pacers seem particularly broken up about losing Tyler and DJ.

    I would bet that at least one of our players has a run-in with Tyler on the court this season. He will foul Hibbert or West hard and they won't take too kindly to it.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Here's all I want. There are good reasons to want Lance to start. A TON of good reasons to like Lance. That's awesome. I like Lance too. If you (this is you-anybody, not you-McKeyfan) want Lance to start, why not talk about Lance? Tell us the things he does really well that you want to see more of. I'm down with that. But if you're all about Lance, why spend time talking about Danny?

    There are definitely people on the board who think the Pacers will be better with Danny starting. I'm one of them. But these people don't, for the most part, try to make the case by trashing Lance.
    I'll be happy to list them again. But I have been doing so for years, and have listed them specifically the past few weeks. For the record, this didn't get "anti" until posters started ridiculing Lance's game and Lance's supporters. You say "for the most part" that's not the case, but nonetheless the threads get stoked by those "in the least part" who start the discussions. I really don't think the Lance supporters brought on the hate and the challenge (but there seems to be some visceral Lance hate out there.)

    What makes Lance a great player:

    - He has an intuitive feel for the game that exceeds anyone on our team. Far exceeds. He knows where the players are, and can find the open man with ease.

    - He also understands where to get the man the ball, and just what angle will be most conducive for that man to score

    - Related, he has a great sense of where HE ought to be on the floor without the ball (and it's a shame that he is usually told to just stand in the corner.) This sense of his often leads to scores on the baseline, usually by passes from DWest.

    - He has great handles which allows him to break down a defense and create space, loosen up the defense, and cause better shot selection for the team.

    - When he drives, he has incredible strength and body control which allows for easy scores, fouls, and and 1s

    - He has the ability to get his own shot whenever he wants it. So far, he hasn't hit that pull up jumper too well, but he also hasn't been given the long leash that others have been given. If he gets it and succeeds, watch out.

    - He brings an energy that takes the team up a notch

    - He has a competitive streak that arguably exceeds anyone on the team

    - He is fearless. He will take on every player in the league including Lebron.

    - His elite intuition also shows up on the defensive end. Just like he knows where every player is offensively and gets the angles for passing, etc, on the defensive end he knows just where to be, and gets the angles and positioning that is most suited for stopping the player in his sweet spots, or getting position for the rebound after the shot. He is VERY good at this.

    - He is unselfish. He would rather pass than score.

    - He has lightning quick hands and can create steals readily.

    - When he gets hot, he can be a very good shooter. He has a track record for being a great scorer. He is perhaps just a green light and a little more confidence away from being a great scorer in the NBA.

    - He has an excellent field goal percentage.

    - At the 2 guard, he is bigger and stronger than almost anyone else at his position.

    - He rises to the occasion. When the pressure rises, he gets excited about the opportunity (ala Knicks game 6) This is a rare quality reserved for great players.


    I could list a few more. But perhaps this will get things started.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 09-28-2013 at 10:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It's almost as if '11-12 season didn't happen for most of you. The starting 5 was the highest rated 5 man combination in the league just as it was last year. Once Hill replaced DC, we even kicked it up another notch.
    2011-12 was the short season I don't think you can make any conclusion with the stats that year, teams didnt have training camp, a lot of players were out of shape, etc, etc, etc.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Chemistry in comparison the the Sacramento Kings? In comparison to the JOB era?

    No this team, despite a couple of whiners, have chemistry.
    Eleazar is saying that the 11-12 season players were "praised for their chemistry" meaning that their "chemistry" was better than the players the Pacers had last season, what he forgot to mention was that in the 11-12 season the Pacers had a reported (by Wells) locker room problem in DJ and a reported "disgruntled" player in DC reason why the Pacers were so quick to kick them to the curve.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    People were talking about the same magic and chemistry about the 11-12 starting 5 too. I think chemistry is the last thing we need to worry about as it is something that both groups got a lot of praised for, in fact I think the 11-12 group got more praise for their chemistry than 12-13.
    When I talk about "chemistry," I mean on court, not off court.

    Lance's skill set, in my opinion, really greased the machine last year to cause better ball movement, good distribution, and patience for the right shot. Granger can also do this, but he hails from an era where we chucked quickly, often without much passing. So, imo, the on court chemistry was better last year then two years ago. jmo.

    (Also, credit goes to Hill at point. Even though he isn't a great distributor, DC was terrible.)
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Eleazar is saying that the 11-12 season players were "praised for their chemistry" meaning that their "chemistry" was better than the players the Pacers had last season, what he forgot to mention was that in the 11-12 season the Pacers had a reported (by Wells) locker room problem in DJ and a reported "disgruntled" player in DC reason why the Pacers were so quick to kick them to the curve.
    The reported disgruntled player as I remember it was an anonymous report when dunleavy was on the team. The dunleavy/hansbrough conflict caused several conversations about it. DC was the starter for most of the year and played better after he started coming off of the bench, especially defensively. In the playoffs that year he was excellent.

    While I would agree the chemistry this past season was better, I would contend its not because the team had any real problems the year before. They just had another year to gel together.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    When I talk about "chemistry," I mean on court, not off court.

    Lance's skill set, in my opinion, really greased the machine last year to cause better ball movement, good distribution, and patience for the right shot. Granger can also do this, but he hails from an era where we chucked quickly, often without much passing. So, imo, the on court chemistry was better last year then two years ago. jmo.

    (Also, credit goes to Hill at point. Even though he isn't a great distributor, DC was terrible.)
    Our offense didn't get better in practice. I think that better ball movement is more attributable to Vogel changing up the offense than it was to lance. Remember for the first half of lances starting role he was playing a very limited role in the offense but the ball and player movement was already improved.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Paul needed more motion than Danny did to help him score, so Vogel switched up the offense.
    You know, this is something I've wondered about for a while. I've always thought Danny would thrive given a little more motion on offense as well, but he was frequently just given the ball and told "go do something."

    I think both of those guys will do well with more motion in the offense.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    McKeyfan, I did go out of my way to say that my comment wasn't directed at you personally. Regardless, that's a great list. I strongly agree with most of it. A couple comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    - He has the ability to get his own shot whenever he wants it. So far, he hasn't hit that pull up jumper too well, but he also hasn't been given the long leash that others have been given. If he gets it and succeeds, watch out.
    His shooting has come a long way, but it's still the weak link in his arsenal. That's why it was so exciting to hear about his offseason work with a shooting coach... That could reap some serious rewards for him.

    When he gets hot, he can be a very good shooter. He has a track record for being a great scorer. He is perhaps just a green light and a little more confidence away from being a great scorer in the NBA.
    I agree with this completely. If we were still playing a "bench" unit and a "starter" unit, I'd argue this is a good reason for him to be on the bench. Vogel's said, though, that he plans to always have three or four starter-level guys on the floor, so it won't be as much of an issue.

    - At the 2 guard, he is bigger and stronger than almost anyone else at his position.
    But I also think that's a good argument for a Danny/PG starting wing. That is a HUGE height and wingspan on the wing. Of course, neither of those guys have Lance's power.
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  35. #572
    Stay focused SMosley21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I leave for a month or two and come back to the same threads being rehashed.
    Grown Man Ball

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  37. #573
    RING THE BELL! Sandman21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    I leave for a month or two and come back to the same threads being rehashed.
    Sadly, it was fairly calm up until about 3 weeks ago.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I've been avoiding this thread as much as possible but it's been a slow couple of weeks... Hopefully this thing dies once preseason begins... But I'm afraid it won't...

    I don't see how this argument can go this long and get so heated among fans of the same team with the same goal in mind... Let the players and coaches work this out... I don't care who starts or comes off the bench so long as we are winning... And I think that's how the actual guys involved feel too... This team is all about togetherness... The press conference was somewhat gross to me with all the devicive questions being posed about who's starting and who's feelings are going to be hurt about playing a different role... This crap has been going on since PG and Lance stepped it up last year... I'm sick of it...

    I can't wait for the season to get going so we can see that this unit is so together that none of this crap matters...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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  40. #575
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Eleazar is saying that the 11-12 season players were "praised for their chemistry" meaning that their "chemistry" was better than the players the Pacers had last season
    That's not what Eleazar meant. He said that the chemistry was great in the 11-12 season just like it happened in the 12-13 season. The Pacers have had great chemistry ever since Vogel became HC
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