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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Outside of Granger, five other players averaged over 13 PPG: Dunleavy (only played 18 games), Ford, Murphy, Daniels, and Jack.
    Man, that's a list chalk full of offensive fire power. Listing the players he had to carry on his back, solidifies my point IMHO.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Man, that's a list chalk full of offensive fire power. Listing the players he had to carry on his back, solidifies my point IMHO.
    Again, that team had the fifth highest scoring offense in the league in 08-09. One player alone averaging 26 PPG cannot vault a team that high without some offensive help. It was not a good team, but it could score a hell of a lot of points.

    Did Danny have a supporting cast that would help him win a lot of games? No, this was a super soft roster that did not play winning basketball.

    Did Danny have a supporting cast that could put up some points? Absolutely. Ford/Murphy/Daniels/Jack accounted for about 55 PPG. That's a lot. Even rookies Rush and Hibbert were combining for 15 PPG. This was a bad team, but it could definitely score.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2013 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Again, that team had the fifth highest scoring offense in the league in 08-09. One player alone averaging 26 PPG cannot vault a team that high without some offensive help. It was not a good team, but it could score a hell of a lot of points.

    Did Danny have a supporting cast that would help him win a lot of games? No, this was a super soft roster that did not play winning basketball.

    Did Danny have a supporting cast that could put up some points? Absolutely. Ford/Murphy/Daniels/Jack accounted for about 60 PPG. That's a lot. Even rookies Rush and Hibbert were combining for 15 PPG. This was a bad team, but it could definitely score.
    Without a doubt, the system pumped the numbers. But nobody there was somebody you gameplanned for over Danny Granger. To stop the Pacers, you had to stop Danny Granger. Nobody's ever said "We can stop their team if we stop Kyle Korver."
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Thus, Kyle Korver is a superior player to Michael Jordan.

    I'm actually with you on this one.

    To be honest, I don't really like efficiency stats built around shot totals. I know they make Reggie look good, and thus we all like them, but the reality is that they're easily gamed by players shooting high numbers of three-pointers and (especially) free throws. If Reggie got fouled taking a shot and hit both free throws, then his PPS is artificially inflated because his "points" total went up but his "shot" total did not. According to that metric, a player could score, on a given night, 10 points on 2 shots. That's ridiculous. I'd be far happier if it was something more like "points per offensive attempt." That would drastically change Reggie's percentages (and Danny's, though not to the same degree) but wouldn't change Kobe's nearly as much.

    So I don't put Danny in Kobe/Wade/Jordan area. Pierce is a closer comparison, and if Danny's knee heals and he has a long NBA career, I could see him approaching Pierce's body of work. The first three, not so much.
    This is why I used three different statistics to show he was comparable instead of just one. A single statistic showing a comparison can be biased towards one thing or another, but if you take three different ratings you are more likely to come to an accurate conclusion. A points per offensive attempt might even favor Granger more over Kobe and Wade as he has a better FT% and a lower percentage of his points comes from FTAs.

    I agree about Pierce. He and Granger are good comparisons as far as ability in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Without a doubt, the system pumped the numbers. But nobody there was somebody you gameplanned for over Danny Granger. To stop the Pacers, you had to stop Danny Granger. Nobody's ever said "We can stop their team if we stop Kyle Korver."
    Although there's been a few times I've wondered if that should have been OUR strategy against Korver.


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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Without a doubt, the system pumped the numbers. But nobody there was somebody you gameplanned for over Danny Granger. To stop the Pacers, you had to stop Danny Granger. Nobody's ever said "We can stop their team if we stop Kyle Korver."
    I agree with this.

    Granger came of age with the likes of Murphy, Dunleavy, T.J. Ford, and Jim O'Brien.

    Paul George is coming of age with the likes of Hibbert, West, Lance, Hill, Granger, and Frank Vogel.

    Luck definitely plays a big role, and there's no doubt that Granger was surrounded by complete crap in the physical prime of his career.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree with this.
    So now you agree that Danny didn't have offense help good enough for opposing teams to game plan against? That's exactly what I said.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    So far it's been argued that Danny is old, is a one dimensional spot up shooter, has certain skills that are still NCAA level, is injury prone, has a talent base similar to Kyle Korver, is such a terrible defender he was benched at the world games, that he led the team in scoring all those years bc he played without talent and was coached by JOB, and that he could only muster a mere 18ppg avg when he did finally play with some talent and the team captured the 3 seed in the East under Vogel.

    These are all actual arguments made within this thread. And in spite of stats and facts being presented to refute all of these claims, these arguments are still passionately being made. I'm curious as to why. If half of what you guys are saying about Danny were true, forget starting him--tell him to go home and let his deal expire. That player being described is barely hanging on to being in the NBA.

    I understand wanting Lance to start. I don't quite understand not liking Danny, but if you don't like him--fine. But to constantly go to the extreme when talking about his skills and accomplishments in the league; it completely dilutes your arguments and credibility on the topic.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    ............... it completely dilutes your arguments and credibility on the topic.
    And that's the way it goes on PD.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Would one of you guys that are arguing against Danny please let me know what it is that you are trying to accomplish here?

    To a person most Danny fans know exactly what he is. At his absolute best he was a star player, not a mega star not a super star and by no means any form of franchise player. He has weaknesses several of which have been discussed ad nauseum on this board to which we won't contest.

    At his normal (in other words not his absolute best) playing level he is comparable to Deng, Gay, Johnson, etc. He is not better than any of them but he is not significantly worse than any of them either.

    You can not put bad player around him and expect him to raise their level of play, he's not that good.

    Many of us like him for both his talent and honestly for the fact that he was the first flush of the toilet that was the early 2000 teams. In other words personality wise he was the exact opposite of Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, Ron Artest & Stephen Jackson. He was a nerd who had some game and did not come across as a prima donna, coke head, nut ball or gangster.

    So I guess I'm just totally confused by all of this.

    I don't understand your final goal. If you are arguing that one of the younger guys deserves a chance to play over him, fine. But build your guy up, don't do it by trying to tear Danny down.

    We have gone so far over the edge here that honestly a couple of very well respected posters are now posting what is the modern day equivalent of gibberish and the curious part about it is, why? What point is trying to be served here?

    Are you guys honestly trying to say that Danny is not only not better than Lance & Paul but in all honesty he isn't even as good as Orlando Johnson? Nor was he ever better than Stephen Graham?

    Please don't use the excuse that you are just trying to refute all of the pro Danny posters. At best Mattie in another thread (quite possibly while intoxicated) made a remark disparaging the anti Danny crowd (which btw, sadly that is what you guys have become whether you have intended to or not). Also in this thread in an effort to compare certain statistical elements Danny was compared to some of the all time greats. I understand the posters idea but I also understand where you guys would lose it over comparing Danny to these players, so in retrospect while it was not his intention to do so he was comparing Danny to them and well Danny is just not on that level (he even said that but by that time the horse had left the barn).

    So please explain to me where are we going here?


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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So now you agree that Danny didn't have offense help good enough for opposing teams to game plan against? That's exactly what I said.
    I agree that he was obviously the main focal point of any defense. I disagree that he didn't have offensive help, because he did have offensive help that was good enough for teams to worry about. 08-09 Murphy, Ford, Daniels, and Jack all had the capacity to burn teams on the offensive end. Jack's solid play was a huge reason that we won as many games as we did.

    In 08-09, you didn't beat the Pacers by stopping their offense. You beat them by exposing their pathetically soft defense. We were 5th in PPG scored, but 26th in PPG allowed.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2013 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    So far it's been argued that Danny is old, is a one dimensional spot up shooter, has certain skills that are still NCAA level, is injury prone, has a talent base similar to Kyle Korver, is such a terrible defender he was benched at the world games, that he led the team in scoring all those years bc he played without talent and was coached by JOB, and that he could only muster a mere 18ppg avg when he did finally play with some talent and the team captured the 3 seed in the East under Vogel.

    These are all actual arguments made within this thread. And in spite of stats and facts being presented to refute all of these claims, these arguments are still passionately being made. I'm curious as to why. If half of what you guys are saying about Danny were true, forget starting him--tell him to go home and let his deal expire. That player being described is barely hanging on to being in the NBA.

    I understand wanting Lance to start. I don't quite understand not liking Danny, but if you don't like him--fine. But to constantly go to the extreme when talking about his skills and accomplishments in the league; it completely dilutes your arguments and credibility on the topic.
    The argument for Danny Granger to start is Paul George. He needs the help on offense and he can't rely on a inconsistent player in Lance Stephenson. This is why Danny will start becuase anyone with two eyeballs knows that Lance is not ready yet and the glaring weakness of this team was the offense.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Granger came of age with the likes of Murphy, Dunleavy, T.J. Ford, and Jim O'Brien.

    Paul George is coming of age with the likes of Hibbert, West, Lance, Hill, Granger, and Frank Vogel.
    .
    In Danny's first full yr of playing with these guys he still led the team in scoring and was an important cog within the team. He would have been an important cog last year too had he been healthy.

    I agree most of his athletic/physical prime came while playing with scrubs, but he was still good enough to be a very important part of this team once we added/grew talent. And if healthy there's no reason to believe he won't continue to do so.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    In Danny's first full yr of playing with these guys he still led the team in scoring and was an important cog within the team. He would have been an important cog last year too had he been healthy.

    I agree most of his athletic/physical prime came while playing with scrubs, but he was still good enough to be a very important part of this team once we added/grew talent. And if healthy there's no reason to believe he won't continue to do so.

    I don't disagree with any of that. I was trying to make a pro-Granger post and be fair to him by saying that PG is coming of age with a cast of players that are superior to what Granger had five years ago.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2013 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Granger is no better than a pre-injury Dunleavy....

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson







    media day, over/under on how many "Danny looks great"'s we'll hear?

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree that he was obviously the main focal point of any defense. I disagree that he didn't have offensive help, because he did have offensive help that was good enough for teams to worry about. 08-09 Murphy, Ford, Daniels, and Jack all had the capacity to burn teams on the offensive end. Jack's solid play was a huge reason that we won as many games as we did.

    In 08-09, you didn't beat the Pacers by stopping their offense. You beat them by exposing their pathetically soft defense. We were 5th in PPG scored, but 26th in PPG allowed.
    They were so good that you, yourself, called them "completel crap." It's not really making sense that you agreee they're complete crap, agree that defenses didn't have to game plan for them, but simultaneously argue for their offensive prowless.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They were so good that you, yourself, called them "completel crap." It's not really making sense that you agreee they're complete crap, agree that defenses didn't have to game plan for them, but simultaneously argue for their offensive prowless.
    They could score a lot of points. This is complete 100% fact, as they were the fifth highest scoring offense in the entire league that year.

    They were a soft team that couldn't play defense or winning basketball. This is complete 100% fact, as is evidenced by their 38-44 record.

    What is so hard to understand about what I'm saying? The Phoenix Suns were the number 1 scoring offense in the league that season, yet didn't even make the playoffs. By saying that the Pacers had a high scoring offense, I am not saying that they were a good team. They were crap that could score.

    In post 515, you said:


    So how in the world is he a 19pt career scorer, and how in the world did he average 26pts at one time? He had no offensive help, so if he was THAT bad offensively how could teams not stop him?



    I was simply pointing out that he did have offensive help. I never said that they were a good team. If you're fifth in offense, but can't even make the playoffs, then you obviously have a ton of holes as team. That team obviously was not a very good overall basketball team. But there were several guys on that team outside of Granger who could score. No one likes Troy Murphy on this forum, but is there anyone who can deny that he could score the basketball? Of course not.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2013 at 12:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Because scoring points doesn't automatically mean a team is good offensively. They were 18th out of 30 for offensive rating. They played a fast pace game, that allowed them more possessions to score those points. As a team they had an eFG% of 50.1 placing them dead middle of the NBA (15). They shot 45% as a team, which was 19th in the league.

    They weren't that good offensively, and you know this. That's why you agreed no one had to game plan for any player, other than Danny. That's why they were "complete crap," as "complete" includes offense. Danny Granger, carried that team offensively.

    Hoising up threes, and getting cheap points off of a gimmicky offense, doesn't make a team good offensively.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-27-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Because scoring points doesn't automatically mean a team is good offensively. They were 18th out of 30 for offensive rating. They played a fast pace game, that allowed them more possessions to score those points. As a team they had an eFG% of 50.1 placing them dead middle of the NBA (15). They shot 45% as a team, which was 19th in the league.

    They weren't that good offensively, and you know this. That's why you agreed no one had to game plan for any player, other than Danny. That's why they were "complete crap," as "complete" includes offense. Danny Granger, carried that team offensively.

    Hoising up threes, and getting cheap points off of a gimmicky offense, doesn't make a team good offensively.
    I agree that it was a hideous offense that does not translate to success, and I hope to never see it from the Pacers again. But there were guys who could score. If we're going to look at team eFG%, then I might as well point out that Troy Murphy had an eFG% of 58%, compared to Granger's 51.8%. But I put very very very little importance on this statistic.

    My point was to never say that it was a good or winning offense, just that it could put up a lot of points.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    ............ Troy Murphy had an eFG% of 58%, compared to Granger's 51.8%. .........
    So, Troy > Danny.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I think it's also important to keep in mind that normally when teams don't have the personnel to compete in the NBA, their system typically sacrifices good defensive possessions in order to pick up easy baskets. Compare that to our current system, where we sacrifice easy baskets to ensure that defensively we are always covered. If we ran a wide open system, our offense could have been very good last season. But the defense would probably have suffered more than we gained on offense.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree that it was a hideous offense that does not translate to success, and I hope to never see it from the Pacers again. But there were guys who could score. If we're going to look at team eFG%, then I might as well point out that Troy Murphy had an eFG% of 58%, compared to Granger's 51.8%. But I put very very very little importance on this statistic.

    My point was to never say that it was a good or winning offense, just that it could put up a lot of points.
    You can still use the advanced shooting statistics, you just have to note their pitfalls. If troy Murphy shot as often as granger, his efg% would go down. Similarly, if granger had as high usage as Jordan his efg% would also drop.

    It's why Paul George's game could be considered an improvement last season. His numbers for the most part went up proportionally to his extra shots and minutes. But if he had tried to do that 2 years ago his stats would have been worse. The more you handle or shoot the ball, the more teams pay attention to you.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Would one of you guys that are arguing against Danny please let me know what it is that you are trying to accomplish here?

    To a person most Danny fans know exactly what he is. At his absolute best he was a star player, not a mega star not a super star and by no means any form of franchise player. He has weaknesses several of which have been discussed ad nauseum on this board to which we won't contest.

    At his normal (in other words not his absolute best) playing level he is comparable to Deng, Gay, Johnson, etc. He is not better than any of them but he is not significantly worse than any of them either.

    You can not put bad player around him and expect him to raise their level of play, he's not that good.

    Many of us like him for both his talent and honestly for the fact that he was the first flush of the toilet that was the early 2000 teams. In other words personality wise he was the exact opposite of Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, Ron Artest & Stephen Jackson. He was a nerd who had some game and did not come across as a prima donna, coke head, nut ball or gangster.

    So I guess I'm just totally confused by all of this.

    I don't understand your final goal. If you are arguing that one of the younger guys deserves a chance to play over him, fine. But build your guy up, don't do it by trying to tear Danny down.

    We have gone so far over the edge here that honestly a couple of very well respected posters are now posting what is the modern day equivalent of gibberish and the curious part about it is, why? What point is trying to be served here?

    Are you guys honestly trying to say that Danny is not only not better than Lance & Paul but in all honesty he isn't even as good as Orlando Johnson? Nor was he ever better than Stephen Graham?

    Please don't use the excuse that you are just trying to refute all of the pro Danny posters. At best Mattie in another thread (quite possibly while intoxicated) made a remark disparaging the anti Danny crowd (which btw, sadly that is what you guys have become whether you have intended to or not). Also in this thread in an effort to compare certain statistical elements Danny was compared to some of the all time greats. I understand the posters idea but I also understand where you guys would lose it over comparing Danny to these players, so in retrospect while it was not his intention to do so he was comparing Danny to them and well Danny is just not on that level (he even said that but by that time the horse had left the barn).

    So please explain to me where are we going here?
    Not sure if this post was directed at me or not.

    I don't consider myself anti-Danny, just very pro-Lance. Seeing the chemistry of last year and the offensive grease Lance brings to the team, I am concerned what happens if Lance is replaced by Danny when it counts -- at the end of games. (who starts, etc., is much less of an issue for me.)

    This is a very difficult matter. I'm not saying I even know the answer. But I think we have one of the real rising talents in the league in Lance Stephenson, so my larger concern is that he be utilized and brought along progressively as he should.

    It is article titles like "easy choice" that get me personally chapped and willing to thank "anti-Danny" posts. It is also comments like those of who thinks who should start is a real toss up being called "unintelligent" and "illogical" . . . and then this post just a while ago from Gamble:

    This is why Danny will start becuase anyone with two eyeballs knows that Lance is not ready yet
    So, my position is being disrespected, not just disagreed with. And all the while, guys like Bird and Hibbert are saying the same thing I am saying.

    Hope that helps answer your question.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 09-27-2013 at 06:15 PM.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  33. #550
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Not sure if this post was directed at me or not.

    I don't consider myself anti-Danny, just very pro-Lance. Seeing the chemistry of last year and the offensive grease Lance brings to the team, I am concerned what happens if Lance is replaced by Danny when it counts -- at the end of games. (who starts, etc., is much less of an issue for me.)

    This is a very difficult matter. I'm not saying I even know the answer. But I think we have one of the real rising talents in the league in Lance Stephenson, so my larger concern is that he be utilized and brought along progressively as he should.

    It is article titles like "easy choice" that get me personally chapped and willing to thank "anti-Danny" posts. It is also comments like those of who thinks who should start is a real toss up being called "unintelligent" and "illogical" . . . and then this post just a while ago from Gamble:



    So, my position is being disrespected, not just disagreed with. And all the while, guys like Bird and Hibbert are saying the same thing I am saying.

    Hope that helps answer your question.
    It tells me the why but not really the direction that we think this is supposed to go. BTW, this wasn't really directed at you but in some way's I'm sure it was pointed in a direction in which you were standing. No offense was intended by my post btw, which I know you didn't take because we have interacted for so many years.

    Hold on now that I think about it the whole Mckeyfan is about Derrick McKey isn't it? Grrrrrr... Just kidding.

    Anyway can't we all just love the Pacers and appreciate that this is really a special team and that we are all far more worried about this than they are.

    I'm realistic btw, I know this is Granger's last hurrah so I'm not going to lie I want there to be some appreciation for a guy who signed a long term extension with a bad team when he was at the near zenith of his career and never once publicly whined about it or the situation.

    That is one of the reasons I love him as a player and I know that is one of the reasons Bird has been so loyal to him as well.

    But when it's all said and done this team going forward will be with Lance having a large role, don't think he will pass Paul but I know he actually has the talent to do it.

    See I also believe that Lance is uber talented and look forward to hopefully several years of watching him grow as a player.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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