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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I am hopeful that he can still improve. I saw a little bit of that in the 2011-12 season under Vogel when defense was emphasized and the culture had changed. He still had bad habits, though. But I'm hopeful the longer he is part of the new culture the better he will overcome the habits and play up to his defensive potential.
    Occasional lapses, sure. But his defense in 11-12 was very good.
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  2. #502
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Oh man, I was right with you until this part. That's hilarious. Awful, but hilarious.

    I get that it's an attempt to balance out the "compare Granger to HOF players" bit (which was also ridiculous), but you shredded your credibility with that line.
    Yes, that was a slap at bringing Kobe into any thread comparing Granger's game. I suppose I took that too far. But the reason his name popped up is because Granger lacks A LOT of basketball skills other than shooting. He can't dribble, can't drive, can't pass, can't see the floor. He's an average defensive SF at best. The bottom line here is that he's a lot closer to Korver than Kobe.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Danny's been a great soldier and he's a nice guy. Very likable. He's put his time in. Had a number of good years. But let's try to avoid comparing him to 4 hall of fame players. Instead, face up to what he is. A one time all-star selection who couldn't get minutes over Iguodala. I mean, we are talking a slight upgrade over Chuck Person. Maybe Kyle Korver with a little better defense, but not as good a shooter. Imagine the numbers Kyle would have racked up under JOb.
    Wow, it's getting gruesome the longer this goes on...or it's starting to become a joke.

    Seriously? Kyle Korver? And somebody agrees with it? I know there's a new mancrush on Lance but let's stop putting down one player to make the other player shine too much on your eyes. That's borderline trolling, if it's not total trolling.

    And being part of the bench of the US Team is a knock on him? So that means Rondo being cut makes him less of a player to Granger and the others? Now if you agree that Rondo > Granger then you're totally contradicting yourself. It's getting old really.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    He can't dribble, can't drive
    Myth. He's actually very effective at both of those things.



    Quote Originally Posted by BnG
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    can't pass, can't see the floor.
    His passing mechanics and willingness are fine. I agree that he doesn't have the court vision of a PG or Lance. But most guys don't. Danny is, at worst, an average passer for an NBA wing.

    He's an average defensive SF at best.
    Again with the silliness. Danny's an average defensive SF at WORST. At his best, he's very good.

    The bottom line here is that he's a lot closer to Korver than Kobe.
    We can all agree that Kobe is the top wing, and one of the top 2-3 players, in the period between MJ and LeBron. The air up there is rare. But Korver is a ridiculous comparison. Korver's never been the primary threat on a team in his life. Danny's been the top scorer on the team for the past 5 years, and his average would have put him as the leading scorer this past year if his knee had been up for it.

    You'd be getting a lot more agreement if you didn't bring in these ridiculous overstatements.
    Last edited by Anthem; 09-26-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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  7. #505
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    You call that one handed mechanical dribble very effective? There are very few wings in the NBA with a worse handle. I could put together a video of Britton Johnson and make him look like an all-star as well. His passing skills aren't even NCAA average.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You call that one handed mechanical dribble very effective? There are very few wings in the NBA with a worse handle. I could put together a video of Britton Johnson and make him look like an all-star as well. His passing skills aren't even NCAA average.
    yeah, we have a below average NCAA player as our primary inbound passer. Makes sense. You aren't going over the top or anything.

    Danny isn't an amazing passer. But he is a solid one. He was the best post feeder in the 11-12 season. He won't wow you like Lance does with some of his passes. Thats just not his game. But to sit there and post that he is a below NCAA average passer, are you even trying to have a discussion here?

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You call that one handed mechanical dribble very effective? There are very few wings in the NBA with a worse handle.
    It ain't pretty, I'll grant you, but it gets the job done. How does he get into the lane so well if he has no handle? I think you're confusing aesthetics for effectiveness.

    I could put together a video of Britton Johnson and make him look like an all-star as well.
    Challenge accepted! Please do so. That would be awesome. Post it in the highlights thread.

    His passing skills aren't even NCAA average.
    Go home, dude. You're drunk.
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  11. #508
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    But to sit there and post that he is a below NCAA average passer, are you even trying to have a discussion here?
    I'm thinking he lost a bet and had to come up with the most ludicrous posts possible. It's the only explanation for a normally level-headed poster suddenly veering off into crazy town.

    But I guess alcohol would do it too.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Go Pacers!
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes, that was a slap at bringing Kobe into any thread comparing Granger's game. I suppose I took that too far. But the reason his name popped up is because Granger lacks A LOT of basketball skills other than shooting. He can't dribble, can't drive, can't pass, can't see the floor. He's an average defensive SF at best. The bottom line here is that he's a lot closer to Korver than Kobe.
    Can you name 5 wings in the NBA that have been able to average over 25ppg in one season, over 24 in another, over 18 for their career AND averaged over 5 FTA a game in their career who weren't able to dribble, or drive to the basket without any type of effectiveness? Are there any one dimensional, spot up shooting wings that have been able to do that type of scoring throughout their career?

    I'm actually being serious too. I just don't think a guy can have those types of averages and NOT be able to dribble, drive, or score at a such a high clip esp without having a single season of averaging over 20 FGA a game. IF this is possible to do, Danny surely cannot be the ONLY player to have ever done so, right?
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 09-27-2013 at 02:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I'm thinking he lost a bet and had to come up with the most ludicrous posts possible. It's the only explanation for a normally level-headed poster suddenly veering off into crazy town.

    But I guess alcohol would do it too.
    My guess is that he's been convinced that Danny has a better skill set to fill out the starting lineup than does Lance, but he desperately wants Lance to develop into a second superstar for our team. When you're comparing a player who's put up multiple seasons of all-star worthy numbers, the only real way to compare them is to act like the all-star has absolutely no basketball skills whatsoever. I mean, if you were to believe everything written in the past few of his posts you would think Danny Granger has been in danger of falling out of the NBA for years now.

    I don't get it. If you really believe Lance is an all-star talent, why wouldn't you want Danny Granger to be in peak form? Because then you would have former or current all stars in Hibbert, West, Granger, George, and then your "future all star" in lance.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Can you name 5 wings in the NBA that have been able to average over 25ppg in one season, over 24 in another, over 18 for their career AND averaged over 5 FTA a game in their career?

    I'm actually being serious too. I just don't think a guy can have those types of averages and NOT be able to dribble, drive, or score at a such a high clip esp without having a single season of averaging over 20 FGA a game. IF this is possible to do, Danny surely cannot be the ONLY player to have ever done so, right?
    There's actually a lot of people who meet the single season criteria in your first paragraph. Most of them also happen to be hall of famers or locks to be hall of famers.

    Link: Stats are fun!

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    There's actually a lot of people who meet the single season criteria in your first paragraph. Most of them also happen to be hall of famers or locks to be hall of famers.

    Link: Stats are fun!
    lol I didn't finish my question in my initial post, but have gone back and edited it. Lol thanks for looking out!

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    A stat that puts Danny on par with Melo, Wade, Pierce and Kobe, in addition to ranking Reggie as being more efficient than Durant and Lebron, probably isn't a very useful statistic. There's a reason that these stats are relatively obscure.
    I could go into more depth about how Granger's scoring ability to this point in his career is on par with those players. Such as, in seasons with a usage rate over 20, excluding last year for obvious reasons, Granger's ppg to usage rate ratio is .811. Meaning for every percentage point of usage Danny scores .811 points. Meaning Wade's is .769, Kobe .799, Anthony .789, and Pierce .784. But hey, if you guys cannot separate the difference between doing one thing at an elite level from being an elite player that is your problem not mine.

    By the way Reggie averaged 18.2ppg on 12.6 shots per game. So it really shouldn't be surprising to see that Reggie matches or surpasses great scorers as he was one of the great scorers himself.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 09-27-2013 at 09:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes, that was a slap at bringing Kobe into any thread comparing Granger's game. I suppose I took that too far. But the reason his name popped up is because Granger lacks A LOT of basketball skills other than shooting. He can't dribble, can't drive, can't pass, can't see the floor. He's an average defensive SF at best. The bottom line here is that he's a lot closer to Korver than Kobe.
    So how in the world is he a 19pt career scorer, and how in the world did he average 26pts at one time? He had no offensive help, so if he was THAT bad offensively how could teams not stop him?

    This is why this conversation is 20 pages long, because the people arguing against Danny have taken the most extreme position possible, and tried to argue it with a straight face. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I could go into more depth about how Granger's scoring ability to this point in his career is on par with those players. Such as, in seasons with a usage rate over 20, excluding last year for obvious reasons, Granger's ppg to usage rate ratio is .811. Meaning for every percentage point of usage Danny scores .811 points. Meaning Wade's is .769, Kobe .799, Anthony .789, and Pierce .784. But hey, if you guys cannot separate the difference between doing one thing at an elite level from being an elite player that is your problem not mine.

    By the way Reggie averaged 18.2ppg on 12.6 shots per game. So it really shouldn't be surprising to see that Reggie matches or surpasses great scorers as he was one of the great scorers himself.

    Danny's career eFG is 50.2%, while Michael Jordan's was 50.9%. Danny's career true shooting percentage is 56.3%, while Michael Jordan's was 56.9%.

    Incredible. Not only is Danny as efficient as the greats of his era, but he's also basically a clone of the greatest player of all time.

    So the question is, why does Danny lack the accomplishments of Kobe, Pierce, Wade, and Jordan despite having nearly identical obscure statistics?
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2013 at 09:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So how in the world is he a 19pt career scorer, and how in the world did he average 26pts at one time? He had no offensive help, so if he was THAT bad offensively how could teams not stop him?
    That's not true. When Danny averaged 26 PPG in 08-09, the Pacers were the fifth highest scoring offense in the entire league. They averaged 105.1 PPG.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...game/year/2009

    That team certainly did not play winning basketball. They couldn't defend anyone and were as soft a team as I've ever seen. But they could score when they got hot. That's why they beat several good teams that season, such as the Lakers, Celtics, and Magic. They could occasionally outscore even the best teams in the NBA. Of course, their soft style of play meant that they also let bad teams outscore them throughout the season.

    Outside of Granger, five other players averaged over 13 PPG: Dunleavy (only played 18 games), Ford, Murphy, Daniels, and Jack.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2009.html

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    So the question is, why does Danny lack the accomplishments of Kobe, Pierce, Wade, and Jordan despite having nearly identical obscure statistics?
    Because he had JOB as his coach? Because there was no one around him at any level at all near him?

    Look, we get that a single statistic isn't the complete picture. But it means SOMETHING, so in order to refute it you can't just say it lies, you need to show WHY the statistic predicts one thing but the actual doesn't match. Another stat not covered in this one, perhaps (playing time, number of shots)? Something SPECIFIC that isn't statistically measurable (where the scoring took place, when, against whom, team style of play)?

    Statistics are just math. They say what they say. INTERPRETING them is the hard part, but a good interpretation (including why a stat is bad or good) needs reasoning, not just instinct. Instinct can make you unsure of a stat but it isn't enough to explain anything about which ones are useful and which ones need more information.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Danny's career eFG is 50.2%, while Michael Jordan's was 50.9%. Danny's career true shooting percentage is 56.3%, while Michael Jordan's was 56.9%.

    Incredible. Not only is Danny as efficient as the greats of his era, but he's also basically a clone of the greatest player of all time.

    So the question is why does Danny lack the accomplishments of Kobe, Pierce, Wade, and Jordan despite having nearly identical obscure statistics?
    When did I ever compare Granger the player as a whole to Kobe the player as a whole? When tell me where I did that and your point will be proven. Or did I just compare one aspect of the game of basketball in response to another person's concern over Granger's ability to be an efficient scorer. So I brought up some common statistics, yes eFG%, TS%, and ORtg are common statistics not obscure ones, to show that Granger actually compares well in the area of efficiency. Last time I checked there was much more to the game of basketball than just scoring efficiency.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When did I ever compare Granger the player as a whole to Kobe the player as a whole? When tell me where I did that and your point will be proven. Or did I just compare one aspect of the game of basketball in response to another person's concern over Granger's ability to be an efficient scorer. So I brought up some common statistics, yes eFG%, TS%, and ORtg are common statistics not obscure ones, to show that Granger actually compares well in the area of efficiency. Last time I checked there was much more to the game of basketball than just scoring efficiency.
    Kyle Korver's career eFG% and TS% are higher than Granger, yet people got upset when BnG compared Granger to Korver.

    It seems like the less a player is relied on, the higher their percentages are in these categories, especially if they make threes. Korver has never been the focal point of an offense like Granger, which means that he never shot/missed quite as many shots. Conversely, Granger has not routinely carried an offense like Kobe or Wade because he doesn't have the ability to do what they've done for so long. This allows Granger to be relatively close in these statistics because he doesn't miss near as many shots as Kobe.

    These stats just aren't very useful. The worse the player, the more likely these stats are to help you. They give Korver higher stats than Granger, while giving Granger identical numbers to Jordan.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Kyle Korver's career eFG% and TS% are higher than Granger, yet people got upset when BnG compared Granger to Korver.

    It seems like the less a player is relied on, the higher their percentages are in these categories, especially if they make threes. Korver has never been the focal point of an offense like Granger, which means that he never shot/missed quite as many shots. Conversely, Granger has not routinely carried an offense like Kobe or Wade because he doesn't have the ability to do what they've done for so long. This allows Granger to be relatively close in these statistics because he doesn't miss near as many shots as Kobe.

    These stats just aren't very useful. The worse the player, the more likely these stats are to help you. They give Korver higher stats than Granger, while giving Granger identical numbers to Jordan.
    You know people have measured efficiency and useage. On average it goes down .2 with a 1% increase in useage. I don't see why we can't take our big brains and apply it to Danny or Korver or whomever but if 2004/5 doesn't happen I think many of you would see Granger as less of Korver and more of a player he really is.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 09-27-2013 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Kyle Korver's career eFG% and TS% are higher than Granger, yet people got upset when BnG compared Granger to Korver.

    It seems like the less a player is relied on, the higher their percentages are in these categories, especially if they make threes. Korver has never been the focal point of an offense like Granger, which means that he never shot/missed quite as many shots. Conversely, Granger has not routinely carried an offense like Kobe or Wade because he doesn't have the ability to do what they've done for so long. This allows Granger to be relatively close in these statistics because he doesn't miss near as many shots as Kobe.

    These stats just aren't very useful. The worse the player, the more likely these stats are to help you. They give Korver higher stats than Granger, while giving Granger identical numbers to Jordan.
    Yeah, everything I said went completely over your head.

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  31. #523

    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Kyle Korver's career eFG% and TS% are higher than Granger, yet people got upset when BnG compared Granger to Korver.

    It seems like the less a player is relied on, the higher their percentages are in these categories, especially if they make threes. Korver has never been the focal point of an offense like Granger, which means that he never shot/missed quite as many shots. Conversely, Granger has not routinely carried an offense like Kobe or Wade because he doesn't have the ability to do what they've done for so long. This allows Granger to be relatively close in these statistics because he doesn't miss near as many shots as Kobe.

    These stats just aren't very useful. The worse the player, the more likely these stats are to help you. They give Korver higher stats than Granger, while giving Granger identical numbers to Jordan.
    The problem with your argument is this: Eleazar is just comparing one aspect when it comes to other guys: the offensive efficiency. What you and the other guys are doing is comparing Danny and Korver being the same player, as a whole. In fact, it came to a point where his dribbling and passing is said to be poor that it's comparable to an average NCAA-level player. Baiting, eh?

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Kyle Korver's career eFG% and TS% are higher than Granger, yet people got upset when BnG compared Granger to Korver.

    It seems like the less a player is relied on, the higher their percentages are in these categories, especially if they make threes. Korver has never been the focal point of an offense like Granger, which means that he never shot/missed quite as many shots. Conversely, Granger has not routinely carried an offense like Kobe or Wade because he doesn't have the ability to do what they've done for so long. This allows Granger to be relatively close in these statistics because he doesn't miss near as many shots as Kobe.

    These stats just aren't very useful. The worse the player, the more likely these stats are to help you. They give Korver higher stats than Granger, while giving Granger identical numbers to Jordan.
    Thus, Kyle Korver is a superior player to Michael Jordan.

    I'm actually with you on this one.

    To be honest, I don't really like efficiency stats built around shot totals. I know they make Reggie look good, and thus we all like them, but the reality is that they're easily gamed by players shooting high numbers of three-pointers and (especially) free throws. If Reggie got fouled taking a shot and hit both free throws, then his PPS is artificially inflated because his "points" total went up but his "shot" total did not. According to that metric, a player could score, on a given night, 10 points on 2 shots. That's ridiculous. I'd be far happier if it was something more like "points per offensive attempt." That would drastically change Reggie's percentages (and Danny's, though not to the same degree) but wouldn't change Kobe's nearly as much.

    So I don't put Danny in Kobe/Wade/Jordan area. Pierce is a closer comparison, and if Danny's knee heals and he has a long NBA career, I could see him approaching Pierce's body of work. The first three, not so much.
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  34. #525

    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    The problem with your argument is this: Eleazar is just comparing one aspect when it comes to other guys: the offensive efficiency. What you and the other guys are doing is comparing Danny and Korver being the same player, as a whole. In fact, it came to a point where his dribbling and passing is said to be poor that it's comparable to an average NCAA-level player. Baiting, eh?
    The argument is completely flawed on the basis of useage. This is why people say Tyson Chandler is better than Roy because they don't factor in how the stats are generated which goes back to Bills comment. You have to use your big brain to see how the stats paint the picture of the player and not factoring in useage is completely flawed and a rudimentary mistake.

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