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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I believe Bynum was training with his team last year too, Greg Oden has been doing scrimmage for about 2 years now so he should be "healthy", Arenas and Tmac got to play "real games" in China they should be back to their old self...
    Nah. He wasn't even playing during the evaluation period, only doing individual drills.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I understand how NBA games are different than full court scrimmaging in terms of endurance and whatnot, but assuming what Since86 is saying about the pressure put on joints is true (and I have no reason to doubt him, particularly given his background), then why is that part of it even up for debate? If, where it concerns pressure put on the knee, full court scrimmaging is essentially identical to playing an NBA game, and if doing those stair drills is hard on the knees than an NBA game, that kind of ends that concern aside from waiting to see how the knee holds up over extended use, no?
    I would think it's all about the unexpected twist and turn. That doesn't happen on the stairs nor in scrimmages. It's in a 100 percent full on game that unexpected stops, twists, jumps, turns, etc. are placed on the body, and that is when we'll know if Granger is in the area of possibly healthy.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I would think it's all about the unexpected twist and turn. That doesn't happen on the stairs nor in scrimmages. It's in a 100 percent full on game that unexpected stops, twists, jumps, turns, etc. are placed on the body, and that is when we'll know if Granger is in the area of possibly healthy.

    Exactly. In the NBA, guys attempt risky things that they'd never do in a scrimmage. As you say, it's 100% full on. You go extra hard for the drive/layup, extra hard for the block, extra hard for the steal, extra hard for the slash, extra hard for the loose ball. In a scrimmage, guys are often going to say "f it" when it comes to going 100% and making a play that will put their body on the line. It's simply not worth it. But in the NBA, it's full throttle. The increase in intensity in the NBA forces everyone else to react. This means more jumping, twists, and turns for Granger or any other player. And it goes on for an 82 game six month season, which is then followed up by an intense postseason in which there is no slacking off period. Playing against Lebron and the Heat in the playoffs is going to put far more pressure on your body than a September scrimmage. Against the best teams in the playoffs, you have to do more to make a play because everyone else is going full throttle.

    The proof is in the pudding. NBA players scrimmage all the time, both with their teams and on their own with guys around the league. How often do you ever hear about a guy getting injured in a scrimmage? I'm sure it's happened, but I bet you can't even name five meaningful players who suffered a significant injury in a scrimmage. Now, OTOH, how many guys get injured in NBA games? It happens all the time, from start to finish.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I would think it's all about the unexpected twist and turn. That doesn't happen on the stairs nor in scrimmages. It's in a 100 percent full on game that unexpected stops, twists, jumps, turns, etc. are placed on the body, and that is when we'll know if Granger is in the area of possibly healthy.
    I would think a scrimmage is subject to the unexpected as well; it's a basketball game, not a dance.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Oden update: Blazers center Greg Oden participated in his first 5-on-5, full-court scrimmages since last September's microfracture knee surgery, and the reports were positive. In fact, it was such a big deal that team owner Paul Allen came to town to watch the scrimmages.
    http://www.basketballforum.com/portl...scrimmage.html

    Michael Redd scored 18 points on scrimmage after having knee surgery and according to reports he looked good(sounds familiar?)

    http://m.jsonline.com/more/sports/blogs/63449312.html




    Report: Andrew Bynum participates in 5-on-5 Sixers scrimmage for first time
    http://tracking.si.com/2013/02/23/an...ctices-sixers/
    Last edited by vnzla81; 09-20-2013 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I would think a scrimmage is subject to the unexpected as well; it's a basketball game, not a dance.
    I don't think unexpected is exactly what he meant. In a real game with the adrenaline flowing you are going to make harder cuts, that is where the concern is. Other than that everything can be easily replicated. Although I don't think the difference between an actual game and a scrimmage is all that big, and if he can do it in a scrimmage he is going to be fine in a normal game.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Can Danny return as a starter of the contending Indiana Pacers this season? If he is healthy this season, he can. That should not be an argument.

    Argue: Should a healthy Danny return as a starter for the contending Indiana Pacers this season?

    For me those are two different arguments.
    Exactly. I still don't know how our threads get so effed up. Well I do, but finger-pointing usually doesn't resolve much of anything.

    The original post regarded the Indy Cornrows article. The article ended by restating its premise "As long as Granger comes back as Danny Granger, and assuming Stephenson doesn't take some astronomical leap, Granger should be the guy on the floor."

    Anything else is really a secondary argument. I read the premise as the author's belief that a healthy, or pre-Injury Granger, is of more value to the team than last year's Stephenson. And, anything resembling that Granger remains more valuable to the Pacers than last year's Stephenson, unless other-worldy advances by Stephenson are achieved.

    I think another premise is not stated, but understood. The author is also referring to what might be expected in the coming season, not 3 or 5 years from now.

    I really don't see any intelligence at all in arguing against the author's belief, based on his premises. It seems that any such argument would be based on emotion and not logic.
    Last edited by beast23; 09-20-2013 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You're using an August 2008 report from after his earliest surgery to claim Oden has been scrimmaging for the last 2 years? Is this more "special" math? And, by the way, that next season Oden played 61 games and started 39 of them. It was the NEXT series of problems that knocked him out.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    You're using an August 2008 report from after his earliest surgery to claim Oden has been scrimmaging for the last 2 years? Is this more "special" math? And, by the way, that next season Oden played 61 games and started 39 of them. It was the NEXT series of problems that knocked him out.
    Nope those articles don't have anything to do with what I was saying early I'm just proving that doing "scrimmage"(the 3 to 6 months new word replacement) means nothing, I can come up with more examples if needed.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nope those articles don't have anything to do with what I was saying early I'm just proving that doing "scrimmage"(the 3 to 6 months new word replacement) means nothing, I can come up with more examples if needed.
    You're proving nothing at all. Some players not being successful after reaching the stage of scrimmaging neither equals "all players are unsuccessful after scrimmaging" nor does it equal "scrimmage is useless in determining the health of a player" - especially when in your first example the player in question did pretty well the season following.

    No one is saying "Danny can scrimmage, therefore he is totally healthy". At most, they are saying "Danny is scrimmaging, therefore it is a good SIGN that he is healthy". In particular, your cited articles refer to an injured player's FIRST (and perhaps one of only a few) scrimmage back from injury, where the data being used to make an opinion about Danny is from a SERIES of scrimmages and full practices.

    However, if you want to continue to insinuate that Danny is doing bleacher laps in his wheelchair and that doing well in scrimmage implies he'll be limping after 30 seconds in a "real" basketball game, I suspect no one will change your mind.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    You're proving nothing at all. Some players not being successful after reaching the stage of scrimmaging neither equals "all players are unsuccessful after scrimmaging" nor does it equal "scrimmage is useless in determining the health of a player" - especially when in your first example the player in question did pretty well the season following.

    No one is saying "Danny can scrimmage, therefore he is totally healthy". At most, they are saying "Danny is scrimmaging, therefore it is a good SIGN that he is healthy". In particular, your cited articles refer to an injured player's FIRST (and perhaps one of only a few) scrimmage back from injury, where the data being used to make an opinion about Danny is from a SERIES of scrimmages and full practices.

    However, if you want to continue to insinuate that Danny is doing bleacher laps in his wheelchair and that doing well in scrimmage implies he'll be limping after 30 seconds in a "real" basketball game, I suspect no one will change your mind.
    It looks to me like you are talking about the same thing, just because Danny is able to practice and "scrimmage" doesn't mean squad until we see him playing a real NBA game, acting like he is 100% healthy because he is able to run up and down the court and climb some stairs is ridiculous.

    Seriously this argument some of you are trying to make saying that scrimmage is similar to an NBA game is just insane.

    Here is an example of what an NBA team scrimmage looks like:

    http://youtu.be/78iz4OEPPOw

    Yeah it doesn't look anything like a real game as some are suggesting.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    So he is still in rehab...

    In a wide-ranging Q&A with "Dime," Pacers forward Danny Granger said that his six-month rehab process puts him back to recovery on October 5th, and that he anticipates playing in the preseason.
    Dime: There's been a lot of discussion about your role with the team after Lance Stephenson played so well in your absence. Do you think you're better in a starter's role, or can you contribute off the bench as well?
    DG: That's the last thing on my mind. My only focus right now is pretty much getting back on the court. I can worry about the rest later.
    Dime: Are you restricted at all in the stuff you can do, or are you full-on right now?
    DG: I'm still in the middle of my rehab. I'm in a six month rehab; I won't be six months out until October 5th…
    so I'm progressing to playing — I'm playing now, but I'm progressing on schedule and I'm still in the midst of my rehab.
    Dime: How do you get the reps in, or get ready for training camp if you can't go all out?
    DG: Well you go out, you're playing all out and you're going all out, it's just a matter of — you only can do what your body allows you to do at that time. That's basically what your injury prevents you from doing. We have doctors and trainers that know the loads you're able to handle so you're playing up to that load. So it's a progression: you start low and then you try and go higher and higher.
    Dime: So you're playing all out, but you're not where you want to be when you're playing?
    DG: Playing is a part of the rehab, so no, you wouldn't be 100 percent. Even someone, let's say Derrick Rose who had an ACL, he can play all out, but that doesn't mean he's playing at 100 percent.
    Dime: So you're not at risk for re-injuring it or exacerbating the injury by playing at all?
    DG: No, you're not at risk for that.
    Dime: Do you think that October 5th date is within reach, and you'll be able to play in the preseason to get back into the flow?
    DG: Yeah. I anticipate playing in the preseason. I definitely do
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I would think a scrimmage is subject to the unexpected as well; it's a basketball game, not a dance.
    The potential for a slower pace, and less 'red mist', means that you can call your shots and think about what you're doing. You can favor a leg if you need to. OTOH, in a real situation, if you play tentative then your overall game (and value to the team) will suffer. Playing a bit tentative in a scrimmage is no big deal. Playing tentative in a real NBA game is a recipe for trouble. So in a real game is when you more easily do the unexpected stuff... the stuff instinct tells you to do. The stuff that has you landing awkwardly, tangling with a bigger or faster player, jumping to your zenith without thought to what comes next (impact, landing, etc)....

    As someone with a bad knee I can remember back when I wasn't as used to favoring it and instinct would take over as we were working. Planting that leg wasn't a good idea! Also, now that I think about it, one of the hardest things to avoid was stepping into a small hole, or unexpectedly onto uneven ground, etc.. True, that won't happen on the basketball court (unless Travis Best has pounded divots into the hardwood, but it would be no different than stepping onto someone's shoe in the course of a game.

    So it's that kind of stuff at full pace that will tell the story. Or even whether he can mentally or physically go at full pace...

    OTOH... I would hope he is at least scrimmaging by now. That's at least good, if expected, news.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    It sounds like he is on track. Which has been said before. But there wasn't an April surgery before. Hopefully what held him back in February is no longer a issue for this season. Only this season can determine if he is ready for this season.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Exactly. I still don't know how our threads get so effed up. Well I do, but finger-pointing usually doesn't resolve much of anything.

    The original post regarded the Indy Cornrows article. The article ended by restating its premise "As long as Granger comes back as Danny Granger, and assuming Stephenson doesn't take some astronomical leap, Granger should be the guy on the floor."

    Anything else is really a secondary argument. I read the premise as the author's belief that a healthy, or pre-Injury Granger, is of more value to the team than last year's Stephenson. And, anything resembling that Granger remains more valuable to the Pacers than last year's Stephenson, unless other-wordily advances by Stephenson are achieved.

    I think another premise is not stated, but understood. The author is also referring to what might be expected in the coming season, not 3 or 5 years from now.

    I really don't see any intelligence at all in arguing against the author's belief, based on his premises. It seems that any such argument would be based on emotion and not logic.

    I have been arguing based on the author's premise--a healthy Danny Granger. In all fairness, I've heard more emotion from the Danny side than from my side.





    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I'm not saying Lance is a better scorer. I'm saying it's possible he may become a better scorer. We don't know yet. Time will tell.

    What is more likely is that Lance will become a better all around player eventually. I've watched enough of Granger's volume shooting, mediocre handles, one-dimensional court vision creation, and on and off defense to know that he and Lance will have a good bit to compete over next year. We'll see if the Lance fans are right or if those who liked Gerald Green over Lance last year are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The part in bold I would like to comment on. I actually think where Lance is most superior on offense is initiating things. He either dishes off to create for others or has been able to make some moves that allow him to score. I think Lance is better at this than Granger, but I agree that Granger is better one on one, (right now, anyway.)
    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    No.

    I think what this thread has proven is that, for many on PD, Granger over Lance is NOT an "easy choice." It still may be the right choice, but it's certainly doesn't seem to be an easy one.

    I view it as a problem of overlap. Granger is a very good player. But his skills are similar to PG and even Hill. Lance brings a whole different skill set that played a big role, imo, on why we were a better team last year than the year before.

    Let's look at it another way. If Marc Gasol and Dwight Howard were on our team, should we start both of them as well as Roy? No. We have some similar overlap in Pacer land, along with the very good problem of having several very good players. Because of position overlap, just being very good doesn't necessarily mean you should start or finish.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 09-20-2013 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    For those (vnzla) that thought I was crazy for saying Paul George struggled in the post defensively against bigger SF's

    Anyone who watched George try to defend LeBron James in the post in the Eastern Conference finals last year will remember that James was able to muscle George to his preferred spots repeatedly, and George’s defense in the post is also a work in progress. He allowed .896 points per possession in the post last year, which ranks about average in the league, but that is a big improvement from the previous season, when he allowed 1.128 ppp—one of the worst. George still needs to learn and refine a couple of credible post moves offensively, but more important is just the addition of strength and heft.

    And this is from an article praising Paul for his potential. (Thanks Peck)

    http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...medium=twitter

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I don't think unexpected is exactly what he meant. In a real game with the adrenaline flowing you are going to make harder cuts, that is where the concern is. Other than that everything can be easily replicated. Although I don't think the difference between an actual game and a scrimmage is all that big, and if he can do it in a scrimmage he is going to be fine in a normal game.
    Granger's knee problem isn't cutting though, because it's not a tear. It's tendonosis, which is impacted on the amount of stress the joint is absorbing.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It should be pretty easy to objectively quantify if he's near his old self.
    Maybe. As I've said before, I expect our starters to have lower scoring numbers this year due to the number of threats on our team. If Danny only gets 16ppg, I could see people saying "his offense continues to decline" even if he's efficient and within the flow of the offense.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I have been arguing based on the author's premise--a healthy Danny Granger. In all fairness, I've heard more emotion from the Danny side than from my side.
    Hmmmmmm.....

    It's funny how two rational people can read the same stuff and come up with totally different opinions. I was thinking the exact opposite of what you were on this.


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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Maybe. As I've said before, I expect our starters to have lower scoring numbers this year due to the number of threats on our team. If Danny only gets 16ppg, I could see people saying "his offense continues to decline" even if he's efficient and within the flow of the offense.
    As someone who has been pessimistic about this for a while, I'd be beyond thrilled if he averaged 16 ppg with a respectable FG%. 16 PPG would be huge.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Hmmmmmm.....

    It's funny how two rational people can read the same stuff and come up with totally different opinions. I was thinking the exact opposite of what you were on this.
    I've read a couple of good posts with decent stats and argumentation. One by Eleazar I thanked. But mostly I feel like I've read stuff like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    This is probably the most frustrating part - Besides the obvious talent gap between the two players, Danny's easily the best fit as well.

    In Lance's fan's mind, Lance is this crazy ball handler that's dishing and setting up teammates. It's a fun fantasy. In reality, Lance plays off the ball, and passes up open shots because he can't shoot, or occasionally shoots up a brick when he's got enough confidence. A shooter is what the starting lineup badly needs.

    And it's not hard to see that either if you notice every great offense in the NBA. They have their stars, and then they have their shooters playing with those stars.
    The argument is just that . . . well that . . . Danny is OBVIOUSLY great, so much better . . . so why are we having this discussion?
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    For those (vnzla) that thought I was crazy for saying Paul George struggled in the post defensively against bigger SF's

    Anyone who watched George try to defend LeBron James in the post in the Eastern Conference finals last year will remember that James was able to muscle George to his preferred spots repeatedly, and George’s defense in the post is also a work in progress. He allowed .896 points per possession in the post last year, which ranks about average in the league, but that is a big improvement from the previous season, when he allowed 1.128 ppp—one of the worst. George still needs to learn and refine a couple of credible post moves offensively, but more important is just the addition of strength and heft.

    And this is from an article praising Paul for his potential. (Thanks Peck)

    http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...medium=twitter
    I thought putting Lebron on the block was a series shifting move. That should have happened a lot sooner than it did. Lebron abused Paul down there, which opened up Anderson for those slashers on the baseline and Haslem on the midrange jumpers. Lebron can move around Granger and back down Paul. It will be interesting to see how we play Lebron this year. Throwing Granger and Paul at him is better than throwing Paul and Sam Young.

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  31. #298

    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    For those (vnzla) that thought I was crazy for saying Paul George struggled in the post defensively against bigger SF's

    Anyone who watched George try to defend LeBron James in the post in the Eastern Conference finals last year will remember that James was able to muscle George to his preferred spots repeatedly, and George’s defense in the post is also a work in progress. He allowed .896 points per possession in the post last year, which ranks about average in the league, but that is a big improvement from the previous season, when he allowed 1.128 ppp—one of the worst. George still needs to learn and refine a couple of credible post moves offensively, but more important is just the addition of strength and heft.

    And this is from an article praising Paul for his potential. (Thanks Peck)

    http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...medium=twitter
    He'll get better as he grows and gets more experience in the post. Fact is though, besides the three guys you mentioned, there's very few SFs that play in the post. I can't remember the exact number from Synergy, but I know Paul was posted up less than once a game last season. Post up defense isn't nearly as important as being able to stay in front of your man in todays NBA.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The argument is just that . . . well that . . . Danny is OBVIOUSLY great, so much better . . . so why are we having this discussion?
    As opposed to this gem from Pacergeek which if filled with logic and non-emotion.

    People forget that Lance carried us in game 6 vs NY. Without his clutch performance, we never advance to ECF. Lancr was also THE ONLY Pacer ready for game 7 vs Miami. When has Granger ever carried us to closing out a playoff series?
    or this one....

    How about Cleveland bench Kyrie? Or Washington bench Wall. Portland can bench Lillard while we are at it too. Let's bench our best up and coming player!!!! That's what winning teams do!!!! End sarcasm


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  35. #300
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    For those (vnzla) that thought I was crazy for saying Paul George struggled in the post defensively against bigger SF's

    Anyone who watched George try to defend LeBron James in the post in the Eastern Conference finals last year will remember that James was able to muscle George to his preferred spots repeatedly, and George’s defense in the post is also a work in progress. He allowed .896 points per possession in the post last year, which ranks about average in the league, but that is a big improvement from the previous season, when he allowed 1.128 ppp—one of the worst. George still needs to learn and refine a couple of credible post moves offensively, but more important is just the addition of strength and heft.

    And this is from an article praising Paul for his potential. (Thanks Peck)

    http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...medium=twitter
    That's an important issue and about the only issue Paul had against LeBron. One more year of weights and that becomes a lesser issue. So, I recognize it.

    What others should also recognize is that when Paul guards LeBron he prevents much of that Magic Johnson game LeBrong has...that tends to kill teams. When LeBron gets his team mates involved, you might as well count it as a W for the Heat. That's why Paul's the best player to guard LeBron. Still, I recognize the issue in the post. If he gets that corrected, this isn't even a close discussion. The fact is, LeBron can operate with Granger guarding him. He can dish to his team mates...he can drive past the hobbled Granger...and he can post up Danny and draw fouls. This is why Granger should be coming off the bench and lighting up the scoreboard. Sure, let him guard King James on occasion. It's better than Young guarding him. But make no mistake. This team was one of the best in the league defensively without Granger on the floor....

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