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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    As much as we're postulating about Danny's return to health, let's not forget the possibility that Lance may be improving as well:

    "One of the wisest decisions a player made this summer? Indiana's Lance Stephenson choosing to work with fabled shooting coach Hal Wissel."

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's not what Eleazar meant. He said that the chemistry was great in the 11-12 season just like it happened in the 12-13 season. The Pacers have had great chemistry ever since Vogel became HC
    And Dunleavy's (and to a much lesser extent, Ford's) contract expired and Posey was amnestied .
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I wish someone would compile and compare the stats of the offense of the last two year.
    Sure. I'll mention some stats compiled from http://www.teamrankings.com/

    Team Turnovers per Offensive Play in 12-13:

    29th out of 30 (14.4%)

    Team Turnovers per Offensive Play in 11-12:

    10th out of 30 (13.2%)

    Offensive Efficiency in 12-13:

    20th out of 30 (1.005)

    Offensive Efficiency in 11-12:

    10th out of 30 (1.021)

    Free Throws Attempted per Offensive Play in 12-13:

    6th out of 30 (23%)

    Free Throws Attempted per Offensive Play in 11-12:

    2nd out of 30 (23.9%)

    Some comments now.

    We were 10th in Offensive Efficiency in 11-12 but it's also important to note that it was a down year for the whole league due to the lock-out, the back-to-back-to-backs and the frequency of normal back-to-backs. If we had the exact same Offensive Efficiency number (1.021) in 12-13 we would be ranked 16th tied with Toronto. So, the fact that the league around us improved offensively while we didn't played a significant role in us falling 10 spots in offensive efficiency.

    In 11-12 we were very successful at getting to the line and this trend continued in 12-13. We weren't that good this year but we were still close to the top in most FT rankings. We weren't an elite team at going to the line like in 11-12 but we were still very good at it. It's important to note that as a team we want to get to the FT line and we manage to do it consistently. That's a big part of our offensive philosophy, imo.

    The other important part is the turnovers. We were a relatively low turnover team in 11-12 but in 12-13 we turned the ball over a lot. Thankfully, those turnovers didn't lead to fast break points for the opposition since we were the best team in the league at defending fast break.

    Now, why did we suddenly became a high turnover team in 12-13? Was this increase in turnovers accompanied by an increase in assists? Well, not so much.

    Assists per Possession in 12-13:

    28th out of 30 (0.211)

    Assists per Possession in 11-12:

    29th out of 30 (0.193)

    There is a small increase in our Assists per Possession but the increase in our turnovers is simply bigger.

    That's why our Offensive Efficiency suffered this year. True Shooting%-wise our team was in the same level in both seasons (103.6% in 11-12, 103.4% in 12-13). It was this spike in turnovers that made our Offensive Efficiency plummet.

    So, it's up to Vogel to fix this problem. Thankfully, we have more offensive options this year and thus I'm confident that he will be able to correct this issue.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    You know, this is something I've wondered about for a while. I've always thought Danny would thrive given a little more motion on offense as well, but he was frequently just given the ball and told "go do something."

    I think both of those guys will do well with more motion in the offense.
    Personally, I think that this extra motion in our offensive scheme led us to the increase in turnovers that I mentioned in my previous post. That doesn't mean that it was a bad choice by Vogel to implement this motion, though.

    This offensive style was a much better fit for Paul George, imo. PG can take full advantage of this motion because he has the tools to penetrate and finish and because his court vision is superior to Danny's. But PG also needs this extra motion because his mid range game is not up to Danny's level yet.

    Conversely, Danny didn't need the extra motion because his mid range game is on a very good level. However, if we were to implement this extra motion with Danny as our focal point then I don't think that this would work out that well simply because Danny's driving game is not as good as Paul's and also because Danny is not a facilitator of Paul's level.

    Paul and Danny have some differences in their offensive games that justify Vogel's offensive choices, imo.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Personally, I think that this extra motion in our offensive scheme led us to the increase in turnovers that I mentioned in my previous post. That doesn't mean that it was a bad choice by Vogel to implement this motion, though.

    This offensive style was a much better fit for Paul George, imo. PG can take full advantage of this motion because he has the tools to penetrate and finish and because his court vision is superior to Danny's. But PG also needs this extra motion because his mid range game is not up to Danny's level yet.

    Conversely, Danny didn't need the extra motion because his mid range game is on a very good level. However, if we were to implement this extra motion with Danny as our focal point then I don't think that this would work out that well simply because Danny's driving game is not as good as Paul's and also because Danny is not a facilitator of Paul's level.

    Paul and Danny have some differences in their offensive games that justify Vogel's offensive choices, imo.
    I'm not convinced the motion has anything to do with it as much as Paul as the number one option is a lot more turnover prone than Danny as the number one option. We are talking about a TOV% of your number one option going from 9.3% to 15.2%. Considering Paul's TOV% from the prior season was 14.0% I think Paul's increased usage had a much bigger affect on the amount of turnovers than any changes Vogel made to the offense. Lance's TOV% 14.4%, so he more or less played an equivalent role to Paul from the prior season. Hill and Roy had no significant change in their TOV%. Both West and Hansbrough saw their TOV% increase though by about 5% between the both of them, but that is still less than the 6% going from Granger to Paul. West also saw a 3.7% increase in his AST% which gave him his highest AST% ever by 3.1%. West being more of a facilitator is also a strong candidate. Just having more movement though I don't buy that as a viable reason for the increase in turnovers. There are better candidates out there.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I'm not convinced the motion has anything to do with it as much as Paul as the number one option is a lot more turnover prone than Danny as the number one option. We are talking about a TOV% of your number one option going from 9.3% to 15.2%. Considering Paul's TOV% from the prior season was 14.0% I think Paul's increased usage had a much bigger affect on the amount of turnovers than any changes Vogel made to the offense. Lance's TOV% 14.4%, so he more or less played an equivalent role to Paul from the prior season. Hill and Roy had no significant change in their TOV%. Both West and Hansbrough saw their TOV% increase though by about 5% between the both of them, but that is still less than the 6% going from Granger to Paul. West also saw a 3.7% increase in his AST% which gave him his highest AST% ever by 3.1%. West being more of a facilitator is also a strong candidate. Just having more movement though I don't buy that as a viable reason for the increase in turnovers. There are better candidates out there.
    Honestly, I think that the extra motion that we're talking about is interwined with Paul George's game.

    Paul is a much better facilitator than Danny. To take advantage of Paul's facilitating the offense needs to have some more motion in order to free up space for PG to drive and create. Danny didn't really need a lot of space in order to create his own shot but Paul needs that space because a) his mid range game is still not great and b) he creates for others as well.

    As we all know, players who facilitate tend to have a high TOV% as well. It's the inherent risk of facilitating and that's something that teams have to balance out. Do they prefer to take care of the ball and maybe force some less than stellar shots or are they willing to make some risky passes in order to find the best shot possible?

    Allow me to present an example in order to explain what the last question means.

    Carmelo Anthony had a 9.3% TOV last season. His career average is 11.4%. He has been a low turnover player throughout his career despite his heavy usage. On the other hand, his AST% has only went past 20% once (21% in 11-12 when coached by D'Antoni and used as a point forward). His career average in AST% is 15.8% which is very low for someone who has a career average USG of 31.7%. But it's an immediate result of his game. Carmelo is primarily a scorer. That's his main talent and that's what has earned him so much money and recognition so far. That's also why he is a low turnover player despite his usage. Simply put, he doesn't take risks in order to facilitate and will always prefer to take a tough shot instead of throwing a tough pass.

    LeBron had a 12.4% TOV last season. His career average is 12.1%. He is more turnover prone than Melo (they have the same exact career average USG%) but his AST% blows Melo away. LeBron's AST% has never fell below 27.8% (his rookie season) and has peaked to enormous heights (41.8% in 09-10). His career average in AST% is 34.4% which is higher than some elite PGs in the game (Rose, for example, is at 33.7%). So, even though LeBron is slightly more turnover prone it's the difference in AST% that makes the real difference in their offensive games.

    So, being slightly more turnover-prone is not necessarily a drawback. The thing is that you have to counter those turnovers by assisting better and thus creating easier shots. That's something that Paul George will need to work a bit. Cutting down those turnovers would be nice but improving his facilitating would be even better. And I did notice some improvement in the playoffs.

    Paul's numbers jumped in the post-season last year. His TOV% jumped to 18.4% from 15.2% (3.2% increase) and his AST% also jumped to 23.9% from 19.6% (4.3% increase). That was something very important, imo.

    PS: I'm not sure how much sense I'm making in this post. I'm kinda tired at the moment but I hope that I got my point through

    PS II: Nice catch on David West. That's indeed an interesting finding.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Granger lead the second unit to a 15-4 victory over the first unit in a scrimmage today. Clearly we have been asking the wrong question. It shouldn't be Danny vs Lance. It should be "should the entire bench be starting?"

    BRB starting that thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Honestly, I think that the extra motion that we're talking about is interwined with Paul
    I quibble in saying extra motion is due to lack of JOB. Because of that, while I'm not willing to completely discount what you are saying, I want to see more of a Frank Vogel offense with Danny in it before I judge.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
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    As much as we're postulating about Danny's return to health, let's not forget the possibility that Lance may be improving as well:

    "One of the wisest decisions a player made this summer? Indiana's Lance Stephenson choosing to work with fabled shooting coach Hal Wissel."

    https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Wissel
    Yeah, he talked about that on Media Day. He had that really nice, quiet confidence that you love to see from a player: "My shot has really improved."

    Can't wait to see the results of his hard work!
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Granger lead the second unit to a 15-4 victory over the first unit in a scrimmage today. Clearly we have been asking the wrong question. It shouldn't be Danny vs Lance. It should be "should the entire bench be starting?"

    BRB starting that thread.
    That's hilarious. Where's the info coming from? I haven't seen a report yet.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    That's hilarious. Where's the info coming from? I haven't seen a report yet.
    http://www.nba.com/pacers/better-exp...actice-granger

    Better Than Expected First Practice for Granger

    by Scott Agness | @ScottAgness

    Danny Granger and the rest of the Indiana Pacers hit the practice court for the first time Saturday morning, marking the official start of training camp. Granger can be a huge addition to last year’s core that went all the way to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals.
    After missing most of last year, Granger has a renewed attitude and excitement towards the new season. Following the first practice, he was encouraged – and as confident as we have seen him over the last 12 months – by his performance.
    “For me, it went honestly better than I expected,” the All-Star forward said. “I felt great.
    “I went through the whole practice. I did all the sprints. I played the whole time. I didn’t have to sit out or anything so I definitely can feel (my conditioning) coming back.”
    A smile appears on the face of head coach Frank Vogel each time he discusses Granger’s on-court performance. When he’s on the floor, he spreads the defense out and can provide the Pacers with a real boost. Vogel said Granger had a good practice, made a lot of shots and even defended well.
    “I didn’t see any limitations at all,” he said. “He just looked like Danny Granger. Not like last year’s Danny Granger where he was struggling to push off on certain plays. He looked like two years ago Danny Granger.”
    There were more than a dozen observers (team officials and scouts) in the bleachers of the practice floor looking on, with a lot of interest on Granger’s showing. One observer said Granger hit two straight 3-pointers as his white team, consisting of C.J. Watson, Orlando Johnson, Luis Scola and Ian Mahinmi, won the scrimmage 15-4.
    To start practice, Lance Stephenson started with the first team and Granger suited up with the second unit – the white team – but there’s nothing to it, says coach Vogel.
    "There's nothing to be read into that,” he said. “This is the final phase of Danny Granger's recovery – enduring the workload of a training camp. We're going to monitor how he does in terms of being able to get fully back."
    Playing on the second unit allowed Paul George and Granger to square off on both ends.
    “It’s always fun,” George said of the matchup. “Coming in here my rookie year, I always was taking a beating from Danny so it’s fun to kind of dish out a little bit.”
    When told that George enjoyed “dishing it out,” Granger smiled and said, “No comment.”
    “Danny looked good,” George continued. “At one point, Danny was the same Danny that’s been an All-Star. He looked real well out there. … Danny was a strength for today for the second unit.”
    After being on the sideline for most of last year, Granger has found a positive. He says he’s refreshed, both mentally and physically.
    “Having the year off to let my knee heal, also helps the rest of your body, too,” he said. “The rest of my body feels kind of good actually. I’m still obviously battling my knee, but the rest of my body feels great.”
    And his previous struggle to push off his left knee?
    “That’s gone,” he said. “It’s more so building up the endurance in the knee.”
    The team’s medical staff has Granger, along with a handful of other players, wearing a high-tech workload monitor. They have a pre-determined number in mind that they want to keep Granger at so that will ultimately determine his workload each day.
    By league rule, teams are allowed just one contact practice per day so they’ll come back early Saturday night to work on shooting, conditioning and the offense without defenders.
    The team is having two-a-days on Saturday, Sunday and Tuesday, and that is it. They’ll practice once on Monday.
    Conversation with Scola
    Once practice concluded, around 1:30 p.m., some guys were getting more shots up while others talked to the media. Luis Scola plopped down on the sidelines to observe what was going on.
    Vogel then walked over to him, sat down, and the two had a conversation that lasted more than 10 minutes.
    “I went over to talk to him because I respect his mind,” Vogel explained. “Anybody that knows how to play the game the way he knows how to play the game – obviously has a great basketball IQ – I’m told him that I want to hear what he’s thinking every single day because I think he can help our group intelligence.”

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Just saw Danny downtown. Dudes in fantastic shape, lean and ripped. Love how hard our guys work in the offseason. Don't see any of them coming into the season out of shape. Like basically the entire Knicks team.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Lance is making this blogger look very dumb
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Eh, too soon to say. I will say that I've loved what Lance has been giving us this year. Awesome game for him last night.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Eh, too soon to say. I will say that I've loved what Lance has been giving us this year. Awesome game for him last night.
    Too soon? You cannot be serious right now.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Lance is making this blogger look very dumb
    This isn't entirely fair. For one thing, this appears to be a piece more centered on Granger than Stephenson anyway. And I don't disagree with the premise - that Danny Granger is really good and, if he's anything like what he was before, he ought to get significant minutes.

    As long as Granger comes back as Danny Granger, and assuming Stephenson doesn't take some astronomical leap, Granger should be the guy on the floor.
    I love Lance, but if you'd suggested to me in September that Lance would be playing like he is now, I would probably not have believed you. He appears, eight games into the season, to have made that astronomical leap (at least in part). Let's see if it continues.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Too soon? You cannot be serious right now.
    I already said I'm loving what Lance is giving us. I think it's clear that he'll keep his spot when Danny comes back. I'm just saying you can't really compare him and Granger right now because of Granger's calf injury.

    If Danny had been playing like he did the last couple of preseason games, it would be much harder to make a decision.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I'd say Lance has probably proved this wrong, but how about we at least let Danny, well, play before victory is declared?

    And where does "dumb" come from? Going out on a limb and being wrong doesn't equal "dumb" in every case.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Brohan Cruyff View Post
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    I love Lance, but if you'd suggested to me in September that Lance would be playing like he is now, I would probably not have believed you. He appears, eight games into the season, to have made that astronomical leap (at least in part). Let's see if it continues.
    This board seems to have been somewhat divided between those who believed that's where Lance was headed and those who did not. As I have said before, I doubt anyone on the "other" side is disappointed with Lance breaking out.

    Regarding the blogger, it's not unplausible to say perhaps Granger should still start. But for him to say it was an "Easy Choice"? It never was. That was a bad idea.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'd say Lance has probably proved this wrong, but how about we at least let Danny, well, play before victory is declared?

    And where does "dumb" come from? Going out on a limb and being wrong doesn't equal "dumb" in every case.
    He is dumb just because he used the word "easy". Read the article again. The blogger assumed Lance was not going to improve. Lance was obviously going to get better. When young, promising prospects start playing well, they typically get even better the following season. The blogger ignored this trend, which is why I am calling him out for looking "dumb"
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This board seems to have been somewhat divided between those who believed that's where Lance was headed and those who did not.
    Probably not. The discussion centers more around style of play, rather than level of play. Lance's style hasn't changed.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Are people still considering Granger starting? LOL
    David "And One" West

  32. #598
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Are people still considering Granger starting? LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'd say Lance has probably proved this wrong, but how about we at least let Danny, well, play before victory is declared?
    I repeat...
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I'm to the point where I don't even care. Frank clearly knows what he is doing and both guys are quality players. Its obvious to anyone who looks at Danny objectively that he will be brought along slowly(most likely only receiving SOME of OJ/Solo's minutes) and once he knocks off the rust he won't really disrupt things. I mean, it's not like Solo or Pulp are playing at such a high level that Danny would ruin what we got going if he got their minutes...

    What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I'm a Danny "fan" that is happy with Danny being a role player. He deserves to win after being the lone bright spot in the JOB years, and he's said on multiple occasions that he's already done the #1 guy thing, and all he wants is a legit shot at a ring. Danny being healthy absolutely can't hurt, unless you think he's going to come back and demand to start or sulk or purposely step on Lance's ankle in practice so he gets his "old job" back.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Probably not. The discussion centers more around style of play, rather than level of play. Lance's style hasn't changed.
    No, style AND level. This summer, nearly the entire board believed he would get around $4 million a year next summer. Few thought he would get much more than that.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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