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Thread: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

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    Default Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Go read the whole article. Several things I didn't realize here. Among them:

    There has been plenty of absurd speculation that Paul George and Granger could not coexist in the same starting unit because they are both small forwards. . . . George and Granger were extremely effective when playing together. According to NBA.com, the George-Granger duo was the best Pacer twosome in 2011-12. The Pacers scored 106.6 points per 100 possessions while allowing 96.8. That point differential of 9.7 was the 15th best in the NBA of duos that played at least 1,000 possessions. (They were 7th best if you take out Miami Heat duos.)
    http://www.indycornrows.com/2013/9/2...indiana-pacers
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Go read the whole article. Several things I didn't realize here. Among them:



    http://www.indycornrows.com/2013/9/2...indiana-pacers
    I don't understand how that statistic proves that they were the best Pacer twosome in 2011-12? Am I missing something? That seems like a team statistic to me. Couldn't the same statistic be applied to Hibbert-Geroge, Granger-West, etc. etc.? Or is something going over my head? Hibbert/West/Granger/PG all played heavy minutes together that season, with DC starting most of the year.

    Besides, I don't think many people would argue that the Granger from a couple of years ago would deserve to start over last year's Stephenson. The issue is that there isn't a soul on earth who knows how Granger will look when he comes back. The guy only played five games last year. At this point, it's all a guessing game. If Granger has lost a couple of steps at age 30 after this injury, then it's very believable that Stephenson could be the better player considering that Stephenson is only 23. He is at the age where players considerably improve every year. Plus, last year was essentially his rookie year as far as playing time is concerned. He should be much much better now that he has that season to build on, in addition to another off season of hard work. OTOH, it's doubtful that Danny will get better at this point. We will just be fortunate if he is anywhere near his old form.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Stephenson would have to improve a lot to be good enough to start over Granger even coming off of an injury.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelMike09 View Post
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    Stephenson would have to improve a lot to be good enough to start over Granger even coming off of an injury.
    I still look at it from a perspective of match-ups, including the advantage Granger would have coming off the bench vs. the other teams second SF.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelMike09 View Post
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    Stephenson would have to improve a lot to be good enough to start over Granger even coming off of an injury.
    This thread can only turn into a Lance versus Danny thread and I think we're lucky to have both along with PG to create an interchangeable 3 headed monster.
    When it comes to who starts I don't think it's a difficult decision. You start the better player and the vet who makes fewer mistakes and that's Danny. You give more minutes to Danny for the same reason if he can handle the playing time. He's only 30 years old and even in the nba that's not old that's a seasoned vet which is who you play the most if you're going after a title. Let Lance continue to develop off the bench.
    For Lance to be a better choice then Danny right now Danny would have to lose several steps while Lance takes several steps up. Lance took a step up last year but he was still several steps behind 2011/2012 Danny Granger. If Granger is healthy enough to play 30 minutes then I don't think Lance could be the better choice to start. If Granger isn't healthy then you start Lance and try to work Granger in where you can.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I literally baffles me that people claim that Paul and Danny can't play together. Just because they both have an SF next to their name, does not mean that they can't be on the court together.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I do not see Danny over Lance as an easy choice whatsoever.

    We haven't seen yet how far Danny has come with his rehab, and do not know
    if he is even the same player he used to be.

    Lance on the other hand proved to be an integral component in one of the best
    starting 5s in the league last season. He has lots of upside and lots of room to
    get better. He also brings a different element in that he can be a disruptive force
    that gets into his opponents' psyche; one of those intangibles you can't place a
    number on.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    A healthy Danny could have guarded Wade last year. And hit the corner three better than Lance. But I don't think he could have rebounded the ball as good or pushed in transition like Lance did.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    A healthy Danny could have guarded Wade last year. And hit the corner three better than Lance. But I don't think he could have rebounded the ball as good or pushed in transition like Lance did.

    Lance does a few things better then Danny but rebounding isn't one of them. Danny is a far better rebounder, scorer and post defender then Lance. The main reason it's an easy choice to start Danny though is that he's a smarter player that gets to the line and doesn't make the mistakes Lance does.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    "An easy choice?" Knee problems hurt Danny's draft position and knee problems are an issue again after several more years of wear and tear. It is absolutely not an easy choice.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    This article did not convince me at all that Granger should be starting. The writer assumes that Stephenson from 2012-2013 will be the same player in 2013-2014. Overall, this hack piece conveniently left out all of the positive things Stephenson does
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    This article did not convince me at all that Granger should be starting. The writer assumes that Stephenson from 2012-2013 will be the same player in 2013-2014. Overall, this hack piece conveniently left out all of the positive things Stephenson does

    I agree.

    If this piece isn't a perfect example of someone putting the cart before the horse, then I don't know what is. First, we need to find out if Granger can even still play consistent heavy minutes on a team that should at the very least be playing until the end of May. Then we can worry about who starts. This writer barely mentions the important part of this whole puzzle, Granger's health, but instead rattles off a bunch of stats from 2011-12 or earlier. We all know that Granger was good a couple of years ago, but that says nothing as to his effectiveness in the coming season.

    Also, as you say, Stephenson's growth is also crucial to this. Many here act as if 2012-13 Stephenson is the exact Stephenson that we will get next year. But last year was the first season that he got heavy minutes. In a practical sense, it was basically his rookie year. To put it in perspective, PG has two full years of extra playing time on his resume, despite being the same age as Born Ready. I'm sure that Lance has used his season of experience as a foundation to improve his game this summer, as opposed to previous years where he had no experience at all to build on. That should make a world of difference in his development. Plus, now Larry Legend the mentor is back in the fold and can give him help in person everyday, as opposed to just talking to him on the phone. And then there's the fact that he is only 23 years old and hasn't even touched his physical prime yet. Basically everything is in his favor to continue to get better next season.

    I just love the idea of PG and Lance continuing to grow and play side by side. It worked out pretty damn well last year. These are a couple of athletic freaks with sky high potential. I hope they play the next decade together.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-10-2013 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    My thoughts on the situation. Make other teams react to you and quit worrying about if they can play "positions" If the combo works it works, who cares if it is traditional. George can guard any 2 in the league. If granger can score at his old level and defend the 3 as well as lance could the 2 its only a win win situation. We will have length, defense and rebounding over any team we play.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Start this guy...



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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Lance rebounded the ball in the playoffs at a far better rate than Danny is going to. Lance swoops in off of his guy and gets the ball. Danny rebounds the style that post players rebound. So I disagree with the notion that Danny is a better rebounder on the perimeter than Lance. When we play NYK or the Heat Lance will rebound the ball better by playing Perimeter players.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Sure if this was 2006 .. too bad we are in 2013...

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I just looked at the stats for the playoffs.

    Lance averaged 7.6 rpg
    West averaged the same.
    The highest RPG Danny had in the playoffs was 5.6

    Danny's TRB%* (Total Rebound Percentage) was 8.6% in the 11-12 playoffs
    Lance's TRB%* was 12.6% this playoffs better than any starter not named Roy Hibbert

    Get this!!!! Lance's DRB% (Defensive Rebound Percentage) was 21.8%. Meaning out all the time that he was on the floor he grab nearly 22% of the defensive rebounds better than any player on the court over scrub minutes (Pendergraph 22.2% in 71 minutes)

    In the 10-11 playoffs Danny put up 12.9% DRB%.

    Lance had a better DRB% rate than Durant (21.1), Iguolada (20.9), Kawhi Leonard (20.1), Lebron James/Josh Smith (19.7), and Paul George (18.1) in the playoffs. It was better than Al Horford, Christ Bosh, Zach Randolph, and March Gasol.

    Of players who logged more than 100 minutes in the playoffs only Reggie Evans, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, Kenneth Faried, Larry Sanders, Omer Asik, Tim Duncan, Boozer, and Lamar Odom had a higher rate.

    No other wing in the NBA playoffs had as high of a DRB% who logged over a 100 minutes. Lance did something pretty amazing last year. In fact if I had more time I would be willing to bet that very few other starting SGs who logged over 100 minutes in a playoff would eclipse that rate in the history of our organization.

    So yes...Lance should be a better rebounder than Danny heading into this season after the playoffs he just put up.

    *TRB% -- Total Rebound Percentage; an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I just looked at the stats for the playoffs.

    Lance averaged 7.6 rpg
    West averaged the same.
    The highest RPG Danny had in the playoffs was 5.6

    Danny's TRB%* (Total Rebound Percentage) was 8.6% in the 11-12 playoffs
    Lance's TRB%* was 12.6% this playoffs better than any starter not named Roy Hibbert

    Get this!!!! Lance's DRB% (Defensive Rebound Percentage) was 21.8%. Meaning out all the time that he was on the floor he grab nearly 22% of the defensive rebounds better than any player on the court over scrub minutes (Pendergraph 22.2% in 71 minutes)

    In the 10-11 playoffs Danny put up 12.9% DRB%.

    Lance had a better DRB% rate than Durant (21.1), Iguolada (20.9), Kawhi Leonard (20.1), Lebron James/Josh Smith (19.7), and Paul George (18.1) in the playoffs. It was better than Al Horford, Christ Bosh, Zach Randolph, and March Gasol.

    Of players who logged more than 100 minutes in the playoffs only Reggie Evans, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, Kenneth Faried, Larry Sanders, Omer Asik, Tim Duncan, Boozer, and Lamar Odom had a higher rate.

    No other wing in the NBA playoffs had as high of a DRB% who logged over a 100 minutes. Lance did something pretty amazing last year. In fact if I had more time I would be willing to bet that very few other starting SGs who logged over 100 minutes in a playoff would eclipse that rate in the history of our organization.

    So yes...Lance should be a better rebounder than Danny heading into this season after the playoffs he just put up.

    *TRB% -- Total Rebound Percentage; an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.
    I do agree that Lance was a better defensive rebounder in the playoffs than Danny has really ever been. I think if Lance maintains the same role on the team he will continue to have an advantage there. But also keep in mind that in the playoffs Lance's man probably had a coach screaming at him to get back on defense and Lance winning a contested rebound was a much bigger problem for the opposition than Lance grabbing an uncontested rebound with his man at the half court line. I don't mean to devalue his rebounding, because many times he was ripping boards away from people. But in the Miami series he lost rebounds whenever LeBron made a serious to rebound on the offensive end.

    However, I'm not convinced that Paul+Lance is a better rebounding duo than Paul+Danny. Remember we don't play in a vacuum. Danny now getting in there and boxing out a frontcourt player now means you have one of our bigs rebounding over a smaller guy or Paul George rebounding over a guard. And even though Lance is the far superior player in the open court once he pulls down the rebound, it means you can have one of Hill, Granger, or George running to an open spot on the other end as the shot comes down.

    I think what will happen is that Granger will be healthy enough to be a dynamic player on offense, but he will lose some lateral quickness and Lance will be the clearly better defensive player. So basically Granger will be the wing in when we need offense and Stephenson will be our guy when we need defense or an additional ballhandler. We can play Granger when we have a need for length and Stephenson when we need quickness.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 09-10-2013 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    I can't wait to start the season, have Vogel announce Danny is the starter, and watch people melt down over it.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I can't wait to start the season, have Vogel announce Danny is the starter, and watch people melt down over it.
    And there won't be a comparable melt down if Lance keeps his job? There are clearly biased people in both corner, but I don't think that one is any more prone to a melt down than the other.

    Regardless, the debate over who starts will be child's play compared to next summer when we are forced to choose between keeping Lance or Danny. That will polarize the forum.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Regardless, the debate over who starts will be child's play compared to next summer when we are forced to choose between keeping Lance or Danny. That will polarize the forum.
    It's about finishing, and there will be a divide if both are healthy and one or the other is not finishing in the playoffs. I know I will be watching closely.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    And there won't be a comparable melt down if Lance keeps his job? There are clearly biased people in both corner, but I don't think that one is any more prone to a melt down than the other.

    Regardless, the debate over who starts will be child's play compared to next summer when we are forced to choose between keeping Lance or Danny. That will polarize the forum.
    I personally think that if Lance plays well enough to make us choose him over Granger, Lance will play the market hard and price himself out of Indiana.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I personally think that if Lance plays well enough to make us choose him over Granger, Lance will play the market hard and price himself out of Indiana.
    Easily the most underrated comment in this thread.

    The people voting Lance Stephenson to start must enjoy the idea of only having him one more season. I think it's possible we can afford to re-sign him if he comes off the bench but if he starts, kiss him goodbye imo. He just turned 23, is built like a mini Lebron, does all of the little things and most importantly, he's shown improvement shooting 3's. In college and his first couple of years in the league, dude couldn't hit a 3 to save his life. Teams have seen his improvement and someone will roll the dice on him if he's contributing on a team that's going toe to toe with Miami. Copeland did nothing but shoot 3's in the playoffs and we gave him what, 3 million a year? Surely other teams saw Stephenon's performance against the Knicks and they've seen him continually beat everyone down the floor for easy buckets. Heck, simply increasing his 3 point percentage by .2 or more might put him out of our price range within itself. Teams will see a player that can play inside, outside, run the floor, body up, grab boards, get steals and so on. People love him so much I guess they're excited to see him leave. The fastest way to push him out of Indiana is to start him imo.

    Let's say Stephenson is better than Granger as some people tend to believe. But there isn't a big drop off in production in the starting unit by starting Granger. Wouldn't it be way smarter start Granger and help keep Stephenson's value down as opposed to starting him and guaranteeing you lose him? We won't pay the luxury tax so all someone has to do is offer him a million more than we can and he's gone barring being willing to take a paycut. That or we're going to have to try and dump players off on other teams to open up cap space to give Stephenson more. Maybe we can package more 1st round picks to dump bad contracts like Gerald Green and poor draft picks like Miles Plumlee. If Granger is capable, it's wise to bring Stephenson off the bench if you have any desire to keep him in Indy. That's just my opinion though.

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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by TOP View Post
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    Let's say Stephenson is better than Granger as some people tend to believe. But there isn't a big drop off in production in the starting unit by starting Granger. Wouldn't it be way smarter start Granger and help keep Stephenson's value down as opposed to starting him and guaranteeing you lose him? We won't pay the luxury tax so all someone has to do is offer him a million more than we can and he's gone barring being willing to take a paycut. That or we're going to have to try and dump players off on other teams to open up cap space to give Stephenson more. Maybe we can package more 1st round picks to dump bad contracts like Gerald Green and poor draft picks like Miles Plumlee. If Granger is capable, it's wise to bring Stephenson off the bench if you have any desire to keep him in Indy. That's just my opinion though.
    I don't understand this. Do what you need to do with the best players and let the whole "if he play's well we'll lose him" thing wait until the offseason. If Lance is that much stronger than Danny, you let Danny go. Period. And I like Danny a lot.

    I'd rather have all my weapons on the floor in their best position and go for the championship than hide one under a bushel in hopes he'll be unnoticed and we can do it next year.
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    Default Re: Indy Cornrows: Granger an "Easy Choice" over Stephenson

    Quote Originally Posted by TOP View Post
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    The people voting Lance Stephenson to start must enjoy the idea of only having him one more season. I think it's possible we can afford to re-sign him if he comes off the bench but if he starts, kiss him goodbye imo. He just turned 23, is built like a mini Lebron, does all of the little things and most importantly, he's shown improvement shooting 3's. In college and his first couple of years in the league, dude couldn't hit a 3 to save his life. Teams have seen his improvement and someone will roll the dice on him if he's contributing on a team that's going toe to toe with Miami. Copeland did nothing but shoot 3's in the playoffs and we gave him what, 3 million a year? Surely other teams saw Stephenon's performance against the Knicks and they've seen him continually beat everyone down the floor for easy buckets. Heck, simply increasing his 3 point percentage by .2 or more might put him out of our price range within itself. Teams will see a player that can play inside, outside, run the floor, body up, grab boards, get steals and so on. People love him so much I guess they're excited to see him leave. The fastest way to push him out of Indiana is to start him imo.
    I get what you're saying, but when you're in "Win Now" mode, I don't think you can make decisions based on that type of thinking. You've got to do what's best for the team THIS YEAR. I'd hate to blow a chance at a championship this season because we were worried about possible future salary cap implications. If starting Lance is best for the team this year, that's what you do. If starting Danny is best for the team this year, that's what you do. End of story.

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