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Thread: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    (In addition to ^^ ...........)

    Not sure what the exact dates were, but the Colts had to make a financial decision on Manning before OTAs and training camps started. In other words, Irsay would have had to commit to the money before he (or anyone else) knew that Manning would be able to play. Doing THAT would have been stupid.
    They had already done that the year before. That goes back to me questioning why they didn't structure the deal around the possibility that he wouldn't play when they signed him to the contract.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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  3. #377

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    I'll disagree.

  4. #378

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    You're forgetting the part where Manning was not fully healthy when we let him go. There was no guarantee that the nerve would come all the way back. Even Manning had concerns about that for quite a while as there was no zip on his passes. It was a no brainer "at the time" to take Luck.
    You know the one thing that puzzles me in all of this is that he was medically cleared to play and the doctors of other teams were willing to sign him to a contract even the Broncos who were in the midst of Tebow Mania. Sure many think a large part of them signing Manning was to get rid of Tebowmania but if he was no sure thing about being healthy would be stupid on their part to commit to a broken down QB.

    I think in the end it worked out for everyone... Colts have a future the Broncos have someone for now and in a position to win because they have a pretty decent team and now a consistent force at QB.

    I think the only people who may not have liked it besides our division foes are those who wanted Manning to end his career here but really how often does that happen for a player to stay with the same team their entire career.


    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I'm still glad it all worked out the way it did. When the NFL history books are written I still think Luck will be proven to be the better "clutch" QB. I know the Colts relative lack of playoff success is not all on Manning, but I still don't totally trust him when the season is on the line at playoff time. I called the Manning interception in the playoffs last year before it even happened. If Manning wins a SB with the Broncos I will put him in the top 5 of all time.


    He needs at least one more SB for him to be there for me. Another "one and done" this year would be disastrous to his legacy as many still perceive him as a one and done QB. Might be the most pressure he's facing in this year's post season because he knows the clock is winding down and the Broncos are such huge favs to win it all. Wouldn't that be crazy if the Colts end up being responsible for another Manning early playoff exit this year?


    Maybe but Luck hasn't done anything yet either yeah he has a ton of come from behind wins but in the regular season you know like Manning.

    I do think the Colts have a better shot with Luck because he's young and the team isn't so dependent on him and teams who aren't uber dependent on a QB tend to win multiple SB's
    Last edited by Basketball Fan; 10-17-2013 at 02:29 PM.

  5. #379

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    The Broncos signed him to a deal that pretty much covered the team if he wasn't healthy. They weren't idiots about it.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I'll disagree.
    How can you disagree with it? The team didn't know when he'd be back, if at all, when they signed him to the contract. He signed the contract July 31st and a month later, Sept 6, there were already reports coming out about how it'd probably miss the entire season.

    If they thought he could play, before they signed him, then they're absolute morons.

    Irsay bumbled this entire situation, the question is just how much.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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  8. #381

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Because you don't have the facts correct.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    I'd love for you to enlighten what facts I supposedly don't have correct.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    How can you disagree with it? The team didn't know when he'd be back, if at all, when they signed him to the contract. He signed the contract July 31st and a month later, Sept 6, there were already reports coming out about how it'd probably miss the entire season.

    If they thought he could play, before they signed him, then they're absolute morons.

    Irsay bumbled this entire situation, the question is just how much.

    Then Manning is a moron too. Manning was also holding out hope until the bitter end that he'd be able to play:

    From August 20, 2011:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...zi6oiiI#t=154s

    Peyton at about the 2:40 mark: "I still have some work to do, I'm going to need every bit of these next two weeks of the preseason."

    Peyton never lies about anything like that. If he doesn't want to give an answer then he simply doesn't comment (see yesterday's press conference when he was asked about Irsay's comments). He wouldn't talk about needing the next two weeks of preseason to get back out there if he knew he was inevitably getting spinal fusion surgery. At this point (August 20), he apparently still thought there was a chance he could play in the opener.

    Also, he was activated off of the PUP list on August 29 and Irsay sent out an optimistic tweet that day:

    #18 to the practice field! Soon the leaves will fall/I looked at sideline sat.night n saw $30,000,000.00 standing there,my checkbook hurts!

    https://twitter.com/JimIrsay/statuse...03556632399872

    http://www.stampedeblue.com/2011/8/2...o-perform-list

    Then you add to that the fact that Polian didn't bring in Kerry Collins until late August. That was an "oh crap, he really might actually miss some time" move. Polian would have brought Collins in a month or so earlier if he knew in July that Manning was going to miss substantial time so that Collins could get more familiar with the offense.

    Manning's comments in late August show that he was still holding out hope that he could play. The fact that he was activated off of PUP on Aug. 29 with an optimistic tweet show that Irsay and the organization were still holding out hope he could play. Polian waiting until late August to bring in Collins shows that he thought he could still play. Their actions show that Peyton, Irsay, and Polian were all collectively surprised that the absolute worst case scenario played out. Before the early September setback, the worst case scenario in their minds was that he would miss a few games.

    It's not like Irsay gave Manning the contract an hour before he went under the knife in September. He him the contract in late July, which is a huge difference. A lot can happen between late July and early September. The organization felt that he would have training camp and pre-season to continue to rehab. And we're talking about a player who had never missed a game to injury. There's a big difference between "he could maybe miss a couple of games" versus "wow, he's really going to need another (more severe) surgery and is going to miss the entire season".

    And what exactly did Irsay bumble? He gave Peyton a contract where the organization could get out after a season. Seems like he did a good job of protecting his business from a strict dollars and cents standpoint.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 10-17-2013 at 02:54 PM.

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  12. #384

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    http://www.ibtimes.com/peyton-mannin...-agency-421496

    After 14 years with the Indianapolis Colts, quarterback Peyton Manning will hit the free agent market after the team decided to pass on the $28 million roster bonus he was owed by Thursday and, as a result, not pick up the four years remaining on his contract........
    That was in March, 2012. So, to quote me: "Not sure what the exact dates were, but the Colts had to make a financial decision on Manning before OTAs and training camps started. In other words, Irsay would have had to commit to the money before he (or anyone else) knew that Manning would be able to play. Doing THAT would have been stupid."

    That work ??

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    So you honestly think that they went from thinking he would be ready to play in the season opener (on Aug 29) to probably missing the entire season on Sept 6th? That is literally 8 days.

    I think Peyton was holding on to the hope that he could return, and he should have held on. But the view point of a player, cannot be the same view point as management. Irsay, when signing him to a massive contract to maybe become the highest paid player in the NFL, can't go on hope and dreams. He has to look at it from a objectionative point of view. I'm in full agreement that Irsay probably thought he'd be back, which goes back to my point about why in the hell did he go out and run his mouth about how much he wanted to pay Peyton, then saying the deal was cap friendly, when they obviously had no clue at the seriousness of the situation.

    He got caught with his pants down around his ankles, pure and simple.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    http://www.ibtimes.com/peyton-mannin...-agency-421496



    That was in March, 2012. So, to quote me: "Not sure what the exact dates were, but the Colts had to make a financial decision on Manning before OTAs and training camps started. In other words, Irsay would have had to commit to the money before he (or anyone else) knew that Manning would be able to play. Doing THAT would have been stupid."

    That work ??

    Nope. Irsay committed the 2011 salary to Peyton, without knowing if Peyton would play. That is painfully obvious, considering he signed Peyton, and then Peyton didn't play.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So you honestly think that they went from thinking he would be ready to play in the season opener (on Aug 29) to probably missing the entire season on Sept 6th? That is literally 8 days.

    I think Peyton was holding on to the hope that he could return, and he should have held on. But the view point of a player, cannot be the same view point as management. Irsay, when signing him to a massive contract to maybe become the highest paid player in the NFL, can't go on hope and dreams. He has to look at it from a objectionative point of view. I'm in full agreement that Irsay probably thought he'd be back, which goes back to my point about why in the hell did he go out and run his mouth about how much he wanted to pay Peyton, then saying the deal was cap friendly, when they obviously had no clue at the seriousness of the situation.

    He got caught with his pants down around his ankles, pure and simple.
    I don't think that any NFL team would take a player off of PUP and return them to practice if they knew that they were a week away from undergoing a serious neck surgery. We can never know what went on behind the scenes after he was taken off of PUP, but I think a logical *guess* is that his body did not respond well at all to the increased rigors of practice, and thus the worst case scenario (surgery) became inevitable.

    But the contract was signed at the end of July, not August 29. They thought they had a month and a half worth of training camp and pre-season for Peyton to rehab. If the surgery was inevitable, then Peyton wouldn't have spent the entire summer trying to rehab. He would have had the surgery much earlier than September 8 so that he would have been able to return to football at an earlier date.

    This was an unpredictable situation and all three main parties (Mannng/Irsay/Polian) held out hope that he could rehab his way through it and avoid the worst case scenario. There was no playbook in Irsay's drawer that told him how to deal with your franchise building QB going through a serious unpredictable injury that threatens the entire well-being of your franchise. I still don't understand how he got caught with his pants down? He gave Peyton a contract that gave his organization an out after one year. Seems like that's due diligence.

  16. #388

    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Nope..
    Well ........ I don't know what else to say. The year prior to letting him go, Manning actually started training camp when it became obvious he couldn't throw. That led to ........ eh, never mind ... Google it yourself.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Nope. Irsay committed the 2011 salary to Peyton, without knowing if Peyton would play. That is painfully obvious, considering he signed Peyton, and then Peyton didn't play.

    There's a big difference between paying a guy who had never missed a game one year's worth of salary in hopes that he comes back, versus paying him four years worth of salary AFTER he had missed an entire season.

    Now it's possible that Manning would have restructured and given Irsay another out after 2012 (like Denver got), but only two people know if that was discussed. All we know is that renewing the contract he was on would have boxed Irsay in for 4 years.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Well ........ I don't know what else to say. The year prior to letting him go, Manning actually started training camp when it became obvious he couldn't throw. That led to ........ eh, never mind ... Google it yourself.
    Nope.



    Peyton Manning won’t be ready for the start of camp
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...start-of-camp/
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    There's a big difference between paying a guy who had never missed a game one year's worth of salary in hopes that he comes back, versus paying him four years worth of salary AFTER he had missed an entire season.

    Now it's possible that Manning would have restructured and given Irsay another out after 2012 (like Denver got), but only two people know if that was discussed. All we know is that renewing the contract he was on would have boxed Irsay in for 4 years.
    Which goes back to my original question.......

    Why didn't Irsay and the Colts structure the deal initially with the thought he might not play any during 2011? They could have given him a base salary, and then filled it with performance incentives.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This was an unpredictable situation and all three main parties (Mannng/Irsay/Polian) held out hope that he could rehab his way through it and avoid the worst case scenario. There was no playbook in Irsay's drawer that told him how to deal with your franchise building QB going through a serious unpredictable injury that threatens the entire well-being of your franchise. I still don't understand how he got caught with his pants down? He gave Peyton a contract that gave his organization an out after one year. Seems like that's due diligence.
    They didn't prepare for the worst. Even your points about how they waited to sign Kerry Collins shows that. They had no clue if he'd be able to play during 2011, and acted like they did know he was going too, until it became painfully obvious Peyton wasn't coming back.

    That's how they got caught with their pants down. They didn't plan for ANYTHING. Not the cap hit for 2011, not the future cap hit, not even a suitable backup just in case he couldn't.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Which goes back to my original question.......

    Why didn't Irsay and the Colts structure the deal initially with the thought he might not play any during 2011? They could have given him a base salary, and then filled it with performance incentives.
    Because the guy who built the franchise and signed the contract probably felt that giving Irsay an out after one season was more than enough concession. A GOAT who had never missed a game in his career isn't playing for a tiny base salary with performance incentives. His contract in Denver still give him $20 million in guaranteed salary every season.

    Like the Aug 20, 2011 interview shows, Peyton still reasonably felt that he had a chance of rehabbing and playing at the start of the season. I'm sure that Irsay was hearing the same things. Wouldn't you have trust in the health of a guy who had never missed a game to injury? From Irsay's perspective, it was an extremely safe deal. Pay him one year's worth of salary (not much in the grand scheme of things) in hopes that he comes back and plays, and then have the opportunity to get out of the rest of the contract after the season if worse comes to worst. You're saying that Irsay got caught with his pants down when he really didn't. He crossed his ts and dotted his i's.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You're saying that Irsay got caught with his pants down when he really didn't. He crossed his ts and dotted his i's.
    Yep, crossed his T's and dotted his I's so much so that they had to scramble to find a replacement QB. Someone who plans things, doesn't wait until the last moment to find replacements, but rather goes out and gets the replacement before they're needed. Like I said earlier, it's the difference between being proactive and reactive.

    The fact that they rolled with Curtis Freaking Painter for 8 weeks shows me that they didn't have a clue. They were doing things on the fly.
    Last edited by Since86; 10-17-2013 at 03:35 PM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yep, crossed his T's and dotted his I's so much so that they had to scramble to find a replacement QB. Someone who plans things, doesn't wait until the last moment to find replacements, but rather goes out and gets the replacement before they're needed. Like I said earlier, it's the difference between being proactive and reactive.
    Well that's on the GM, not Irsay. And that's not a problem that was limited to 2011. We had crappy backups for most of Peyton's career. But even as a Polian basher, I'm not going to beat him up too much for banking on the reliable Peyton being ready to play once the season started.

    What you're neglecting here is the role that Peyton himself would have played in all of this. Don't you think that Irsay and Polian would have been checking in on him daily once the lockout ended? Don't you think that Peyton would have tried to sound as honestly optimistic as possible about his chances of rehabbing the injury and playing, like he did in the August 20, 2011 video I posed? Don't you think that Irsay and Polian would buy into the optimism that he could rehab his way through it? We're talking about a guy who didn't miss a game in 13 seasons. It's not like Irsay and Polian had to make these decisions (contract, backup QB) without honest input from Peyton. I would think that Peyton's role in this would have played a HUGE factor.

    When the cornerstone of your franchise for 13 years goes out for an entire season, then yeah there's likely going to be some bad ripple effects (unless Hoodie is running your franchise).

    From a business perspective, Irsay didn't get caught with his pants down at all. Pay a GOAT who had never missed a game one year's worth of salary (not much in the overall grand scheme of things) in hopes that he can rehab his way back to the field (not a dumb bet at the time), and then have the opportunity to get out of the contract a year later if you so desired.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Well that's on the GM, not Irsay. And that's not a problem that was limited to 2011. We had crappy backups for most of Peyton's career. But even as a Polian basher, I'm not going to beat him up too much for banking on the reliable Peyton being ready to play once the season started.

    What you're neglecting here is the role that Peyton himself would have played in all of this. Don't you think that Irsay and Polian would have been checking in on him daily once the lockout ended? Don't you think that Peyton would have tried to sound as honestly optimistic as possible about his chances of rehabbing the injury and playing, like he did in the August 20, 2011 video I posed? Don't you think that Irsay and Polian would buy into the optimism that he could rehab his way through it? We're talking about a guy who didn't miss a game in 13 seasons. It's not like Irsay and Polian had to make these decisions (contract, backup QB) without honest input from Peyton. I would think that Peyton's role in this would have played a HUGE factor.

    When the cornerstone of your franchise for 13 years goes out for an entire season, then yeah there's likely going to be some bad ripple effects (unless Hoodie is running your franchise).

    From a business perspective, Irsay didn't get caught with his pants down at all. Pay a GOAT who had never missed a game one year's worth of salary (not much in the overall grand scheme of things) in hopes that he can rehab his way back to the field (not a dumb bet at the time), and then have the opportunity to get out of the contract a year later if you so desired.
    I know they bought into it, that's the problem. They can be optimistic and still plan for the worst, instead of being optimistic and planning for nothing. That's the difference. They didn't actually try to better the situation. They put all their hopes and dreams into Peyton coming back and it crashed and burned.

    EDIT: I guess I should just post the saying "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"
    Last edited by Since86; 10-17-2013 at 03:54 PM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I know they bought into it, that's the problem. They can be optimistic and still plan for the worst, instead of being optimistic and planning for nothing. That's the difference. They didn't actually try to better the situation. They put all their hopes and dreams into Peyton coming back and it crashed and burned.

    Yes, it crashed and burned.......for one season. What were they supposed to do? Not sign him? Peyton Manning isn't signing for a $5 million base with the other $15 million earned through performance incentives. A GOAT like that is getting $20 mil guaranteed. Giving him a full year's salary with the organization having the opportunity to get out after that first year was both parties meeting in the middle. More than enough concession from Peyton's standpoint. Paying him that year's salary and taking the gamble that he could rehab his way through the injury was more than worth it when you're talking about a GOAT who had never missed a game.

    Now, there were plenty of roster flaws (such as not having an adequate backup QB), but that's on the GM. But as far as the contract is concerned, Irsay did not get caught with his pants down. He made a gamble for one season that Peyton would return, but also gave himself the option to get out of the contract after one season if he didn't feel it was best for the franchise.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    If you are caught with your pants down, you are exposed in an embarrassing situation. It can also mean that you were caught unprepared for a situation or an event.
    http://www.usingenglish.com/referenc...ants+down.html

    An exact description of what happened. Whether it was for one season, or ten, whether it was because they were dealing with the GOAT nor not, they didn't prepare for anything other than Peyton coming back. They just didn't. I'm perfectly fine saying that screw up resulted in luck (Luck) but doesn't change the fact that they didn't make any other plan other than pining all their hopes on PM coming back.

    They didn't plan for it financially, nor with roster moves. They did nothing but sit on their hands and hope.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    An exact description of what happened. Whether it was for one season, or ten, whether it was because they were dealing with the GOAT nor not, they didn't prepare for anything other than Peyton coming back. They just didn't. I'm perfectly fine saying that screw up resulted in luck (Luck) but doesn't change the fact that they didn't make any other plan other than pining all their hopes on PM coming back.

    They didn't plan for it financially, nor with roster moves. They did nothing but sit on their hands and hope.
    I agree that those who designed the roster (Bill and his son Fredo) let weaknesses build up over the years and the result was a roster that was ill-equipped to survive without Manning. Irsay paid them the big bucks to make the right moves, and they failed at the end of their tenure here. And that's why they got the axe.

    But I don't think that Irsay was unprepared as far as protecting his franchise was concerned. He gambled on a GOAT coming back and paid him a full season's worth of salary, but allowed himself an out after that season.

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    Default Re: 2013 Peyton Manning thread

    I'm sure (as sure as I can be) that the option to opt out at the end of the year was based on the idea of seeing how the season went after the rehab. I'm doubting there was much thought to a more delicate surgery being necessary on anyone's part, let alone a lost season. It was only after the failed return to practice that everyone changed gears... and the ink was long dry on the contract at that point.

    And didn't Manning want to play in the last couple of games? I'm sure that was the case so that means even as the season wore on Manning hadn't given up on the idea of coming back.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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