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Thread: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

  1. #51
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    What is the largest american city without Major League Sports, anyway? Is it Birmingham, AL. Bet they're just dying to get on the radar...
    OKC taxpayers were GLAD to back the Brink's trucks up to Clay Bennett's door as they overwhelmingly voted in a referendum for improvements to the arena and a land for a practice center.... Oh, the building & equipment too!

    Bottom line is... To have Pro Sports in a small market you have to pay to play! If you don't they find somewhere else to stay!

    Like it, hate it.... It's just the way it is!

    Pro sports and tall buildings are about the only thing that separates Indianapolis from Fort Wayne!
    No argument here. It's why I said the federal government should step in and draw some lines. As long as cities and states have the power to tax then it's a bottomless pit they think are drawing from to pay the price of admission for pro sports. Put some federal regulations in place to slap their hands when they reach for the cookie jar, make it equal for all, and maybe this genie can be put back in the bottle.

    You'll get no argument from me that there is value to having entertainment, especially national stage entertainment, in Indpls (or any town). The question is, just how much value and where is the stopping point?
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  3. #52
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    One thing that irks me is that the Pacers have never apparently tried to get the NBA All Star game for Indpls in this modern era yet it apparently was coded into their Conseco agreement that they would make that effort. While maybe PS&E doesn't see value in it, I'm sure Indpls WOULD see value in it. More importantly, if PS&E wasn't going to pursue this then they never should've agreed to that being in the contract. It would be a little 'give back' to the city for all the concessions they have made to the team.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    One thing that irks me is that the Pacers have never apparently tried to get the NBA All Star game for Indpls in this modern era yet it apparently was coded into their Conseco agreement that they would make that effort. While maybe PS&E doesn't see value in it, I'm sure Indpls WOULD see value in it. More importantly, if PS&E wasn't going to pursue this then they never should've agreed to that being in the contract. It would be a little 'give back' to the city for all the concessions they have made to the team.
    I will also agree with this. I know that they had a very bad experience back in 85 but the city has changed dramatically since then. I know the team that puts it on tends to lose money (at least that is what Walsh always claimed) but frankly since the city has been helping out over the past couple of years and has made it very clear to the team that they want them to stay here then yes the Pacers should throw the city a bone and attempt to hold one.

    Another premier event coming to town would only enhance the city more which in turn helps the Pacers.


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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    What is the largest american city without Major League Sports, anyway? Is it Birmingham, AL. Bet they're just dying to get on the radar...
    OKC taxpayers were GLAD to back the Brink's trucks up to Clay Bennett's door as they overwhelmingly voted in a referendum for improvements to the arena and a land for a practice center.... Oh, the building & equipment too!

    Bottom line is... To have Pro Sports in a small market you have to pay to play! If you don't they find somewhere else to stay!

    Like it, hate it.... It's just the way it is!

    Pro sports and tall buildings are about the only thing that separates Indianapolis from Fort Wayne!
    What do you classify as major league sports? It is probably las vegas, columbus ohio, or austin texas. All are around the same size population wise, and all have other things going on besides professional sports. After that probably Providence RI and Virginia beach area, both around 1.6 to 1.7 million people.
    Danger Zone

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    if anybody's interested this is the impact study (PDF) the Pacers had done back in 2010 when the first CIB was in negotiations. fun way to spend a Labor Day y'know.

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/5s55va

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    At the end of an Ultimatum the $10 million has to be on the CIB budget anyways. If the Pacers are not here, the CIB will still have to spend that 10 Million to run the Fieldhouse. So pay it and be done. The Pacers are only angling for the same type of long term deal the Colts received for Lucas Oil Stadium. They want operation subsidies, they want improvement subsidies (Colts are now asking for more luxury suites to be built for them), they want revenue from all events.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    At the end of an Ultimatum the $10 million has to be on the CIB budget anyways. If the Pacers are not here, the CIB will still have to spend that 10 Million to run the Fieldhouse. So pay it and be done. The Pacers are only angling for the same type of long term deal the Colts received for Lucas Oil Stadium. They want operation subsidies, they want improvement subsidies (Colts are now asking for more luxury suites to be built for them), they want revenue from all events.
    Then the Pacers should have demanded those concessions back in the mid 90's when they had max leverage. At the time, they signed on to the deal because it was good for them. But then Irsay came along about 8 years later and got a way better deal. I've always thought that the Pacers money grubbing since then is because they're bent that Irsay got way more. But the Pacers seemed more than happy with the Fieldhouse deal at the time they signed it.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Then the Pacers should have demanded those concessions back in the mid 90's when they had max leverage. At the time, they signed on to the deal because it was good for them. But then Irsay came along about 8 years later and got a way better deal. I've always thought that the Pacers money grubbing since then is because they're bent that Irsay got way more. But the Pacers seemed more than happy with the Fieldhouse deal at the time they signed it.
    You forget that Pacers had the option to renegotiate the contract any time after 10 years. That is what they have been doing. The city agreed to the 10 million dollar per year subsidy for 3 years, and now they have to revisit the issue to hash out a long term deal.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  13. #59
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Doesn't PS&E get all the proceeds from events in Conse errr.... Bankers Life versus Irsay only sharing in the profits from events at Lucas?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Doesn't PS&E get all the proceeds from events in Conse errr.... Bankers Life versus Irsay only sharing in the profits from events at Lucas?
    vice versa, or was before the 2011 CIB negotiations I know, I think it's the same but I'm not sure. Irsay makes a metric **** ton by doing nothing but inheriting the Colts.

  15. #61
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    vice versa, or was before the 2011 CIB negotiations I know, I think it's the same but I'm not sure. Irsay makes a metric **** ton by doing nothing but inheriting the Colts.
    Are you sure? I know some people had it wrong at one point and now I'm not sure exactly what was accurate. I'm fairly certain, atleast pre 2011 deal, it was PS&E getting everything while Irsay split proceeds. I'd like to see a link if anyone can find one.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I will also agree with this. I know that they had a very bad experience back in 85 but the city has changed dramatically since then. I know the team that puts it on tends to lose money (at least that is what Walsh always claimed) but frankly since the city has been helping out over the past couple of years and has made it very clear to the team that they want them to stay here then yes the Pacers should throw the city a bone and attempt to hold one.

    Another premier event coming to town would only enhance the city more which in turn helps the Pacers.
    I know that Walsh claimed that the all star host team lost money, but how is that really possible? Isn't it really an NBA event? Wouldn't the NBA handle practically all of the costs and logistics? I doubt that anyone would ever want to host it if it were too big of a financial burden.

    To me, it just always sounded like they simply didn't want to fool with it.

    I agree 100% that they owe it to the city to try. The city and Indianapolis taxpayers have been so good to the franchise. The least the Pacers could do is host a weekend party like the all star game, which would bring quite a bit of attention and celebrities to the city. It obviously wouldn't be a Super Bowl atmosphere, but it would still be pretty damn busy downtown over all star weekend. Georgia Street would be a big party. You know that Indy would hit it out of the park like we do with any other event we host.

    Besides, it would be a great way to market the NBA and Pacers to the local community. People would venture down to the party and then maybe come back with the impression that the NBA is kind of cool. That would maybe give people even more incentive to checkout the Pacers. Now is the perfect time since it looks like we are going to be so strong for the foreseeable future. Put it this way....it certainly wouldn't hurt the Pacers popularity.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    vice versa, or was before the 2011 CIB negotiations I know, I think it's the same but I'm not sure. Irsay makes a metric **** ton by doing nothing but inheriting the Colts.
    Sure he was lucky to inherit the team. But a lot of current sports owners are lucky people who inherited the team from their parents.

    Irsay has overseen a period where the Colts were transformed from joke franchise into one of the premier organizations in the NFL. The Colts are easily a top 10 NFL franchise. Sure most of the rise is because of Manning, but Manning has been gone for three years and yet the Colts still look like they're in pretty damn good shape to me. Jim Irsay is superior compared to his father.

    The Colts are a very aggressive and efficient organization. The Colts have never just sat around and hoped that fans would just come to them. Unlike the Pacers for most of their existence, the Colts understand that a world that exists outside of Marion County. The Colts' brilliant marketing strategies have converted a huge chunk of the state into Colts fans. Go down to Southern Indiana, 100 miles away from Indy, and you see Colts merch everywhere. Go to Louisville, KY and you even see a lot of Colts stuff. The Colts have reached out to people in these areas and Irsay deserves massive credit. They understood that the time to go on marketing blitzes was when they were at the zenith of their popularity in the Manning era. That way when things had the potential to get rough after Manning's release, they ensured that they had a big fan base and would remain popular. When it comes to marketing, the Colts play offense, not defense. The owner deserves massive props.

    The Pacers should take some notes from Irsay's organization.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    I can't believe people saying "just let them move". I'll help support the cities need sports theory. Once I graduate, the fiancee and I want to move out west. California is out for cost of living so it leaves Arizona/Phoenix and Las Vegas for us. I'm intrigued by Vegas but it's not family friendly imo and sports helps play a part of that. If the decision were just mine then we'd be in Arizona.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    I can't believe people saying "just let them move". I'll help support the cities need sports theory. Once I graduate, the fiancee and I want to move out west. California is out for cost of living so it leaves Arizona/Phoenix and Las Vegas for us. I'm intrigued by Vegas but it's not family friendly imo and sports helps play a part of that. If the decision were just mine then we'd be in Arizona. She has family that lives in the LV area so that's the main positive for Vegas.

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    Yeah, shame on the Pacers for being restricted by NBA marketing limits. They should also copy how the Colts overcame the powerhouse football traditions in Bloomington and Louisville since the basketball markets there are ripe for the picking.



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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Yeah, shame on the Pacers for being restricted by NBA marketing limits. They should also copy how the Colts overcame the powerhouse football traditions in Bloomington and Louisville since the basketball markets there are ripe for the picking.



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    What is the NBA marketing radius? I'm not finding much luck googling it.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What is the NBA marketing radius? I'm not finding much luck googling it.
    75 miles

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    ridiculously low
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    75 miles
    I think the NFL also has a 75 mile radius rule, but exceptions are made to areas with no team. This is why the Colts are able to market themselves 100 miles away in Southern Indiana and Louisville.

    I'm not ready to absolve the Pacers of blame until I find some proof that they are prevented from marketing in Southern Indiana and Louisville. I have a hard time believing that the NBA wouldn't let them market in an area of their own state in which they are by far the closest NBA team. And the Pacers are also by far the closest NBA team to Louisville. Is the NBA really preventing the Pacers from marketing to a metro area of 1 million plus people that is located nowhere near any other team besides the Pacers? There's no way that the NBA could be that stupid.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Has there ever been any real hard consensus on just how much money that really is, where it goes, etc.?
    I would guess that much of the money winds up in the hands of some very well off people. Yes the teams pay taxes but the public is still paying sales tax for these teams as well. If franchise taxes were really profitable for the city why are we still paying subsidies?

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    More school teachers don't bring in conventions, skilled workers, businesses, Super Bowls, or Final Fours. Parks don't convince the NCAA to relocate their headquarters to your town. Having state of the art stadiums and sports infrastructure do.
    Hosting these events don't sustain high paying jobs and many studies show that hosting a SB is a wash financially for most cities. How many businesses have relocated to central Indiana because of a few sporting events? The NCAA relocation brought very little increased employment and financial benefits to Indianapolis.

    The most successful cities in this country don't rely on hosting sporting events as a basis for their economy.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierguy View Post
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    Hosting these events don't sustain high paying jobs and many studies show that hosting a SB is a wash financially for most cities. How many businesses have relocated to central Indiana because of a few sporting events? The NCAA relocation brought very little increased employment and financial benefits to Indianapolis.

    The most successful cities in this country don't rely on hosting sporting events as a basis for their economy.
    ... But, Land locked cities in the Midwest/Rust Belt need every opportunity and and trick to compete with cities on a coast, large river or having a climatic advantage. Sounds like sports is Indy's drawing card! I remember downtown Indy before sports and how the sidewalks rolled up right after 6pm...
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    ... But, Land locked cities in the Midwest/Rust Belt need every opportunity and and trick to compete with cities on a coast, large river or having a climatic advantage. Sounds like sports is Indy's drawing card! I remember downtown Indy before sports and how the sidewalks rolled up right after 6pm...
    6? I had to scamper out of work at 220 N Meridian to avoid them being rolled up at 5 on weeknights...
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierguy View Post
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    The NCAA relocation brought very little increased employment and financial benefits to Indianapolis.
    At least 600 permanent (and DECENT paying) jobs + who knows how many jobs created by vendors contracted to provide services at the NCAA offices isn't something to sneeze at, plus having Indianapolis guaranteed a major NCAA event EVERY year that brings MONEY into the city, be it basketball tournaments or the NCAA Convention or even the March Madness selection meetings....
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