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Thread: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

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    Default New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2013...ers-fieldhouse

    The Capital Improvement Board is still negotiating a longer-term agreement with the Indiana Pacers, but its 2014 budget includes an estimated $21 million in spending to support an eventual deal.

    That sum includes $11 million for a potential payment to offset the NBA team's costs of operating Bankers Life Fieldhouse. A one-year extension that goes through June 2014 had cost $10 million.

    And the CIB also budgeted $10 million for still-unspecified upgrades at the fieldhouse. CIB President Ann Lathrop said those upgrades are needed items, but are part of negotiations.

    Lathrop called a deal with the Pacers likely by the end of the year; it could extend the team's commitment beyond 2019. She said the amounts in the proposed budget, which is up for vote by CIB members this afternoon, are approximate but reflect current talks with Pacers Sports & Entertainment.

    Lathrop did not reveal anything else about negotiations or hint at the possible agreement term or overall dollar amount being discussed.

    The proposed $115 million operating budget for 2014 reflects a $35 million increase over this year.

    That is due to the anticipated Pacers costs and long-planned maintenance and upgrades at all CIB-overseen facilities, including the convention center and Lucas Oil Stadium.

    Overall, the budget would have a $33 million deficit, dipping into savings set aside in recent years for building upkeep as well as operating reserves.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

    Don't say this to loud, it will disturb the paranoia of a few who think the team wants out of town as fast as possible.


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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Remind me again why the NBA expects millions of dollars from each local community again and again to be given to their franchises?

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Remind me again why the NBA expects millions of dollars from each local community again and again to be given to their franchises?
    Because they keep getting it, can ya blame em?

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Remind me again why the NBA expects millions of dollars from each local community again and again to be given to their franchises?
    Exactly. I mean, I love the Pacers as much as anyone, but I can see where these taxpayer handouts would tick off your average Indy resident. This city has trouble paying for essential services, yet they always conveniently find tens of millions to handout to billionaires. This is why the Colts or Pacers will never leave Indy. Indy is a perfect place to be for billionaire owners who love taxpayer handouts. Taxes for the common man get raised, why millions of taxpayer dollars continue to flow into the hands of billionaires.

    Are the Pacers still going to lead us to believe that they are actually losing money after a deep playoff run? That's always reeked of major BS.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2013 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    http://www.wthr.com/story/20756941/i...t-tax-increase


    In short; 10% of ticket sales is tax to begin with, which will be about 5 mio a year is my guess perhaps even more but I like to err on the safe side
    add to that the tax on the food etc, it ends up being a "give it back" more than anything and why does it not say how much is going to Colts/Lucas stadium?
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    I guess when I see this and I think about how different communities have to pony up millions of dollars to help pay for these arenas, I just feel like there's possibly some kind of exploitation going on. I mean how much does a community pay Walmart to help build its building?

    I think we are good to go with keeping this team for as long as bankers life Fieldhouse is usable, but I do worry what's going to happen once that day comes that we need something newer.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I guess when I see this and I think about how different communities have to pony up millions of dollars to help pay for these arenas, I just feel like there's possibly some kind of exploitation going on. I mean how much does a community pay Walmart to help build its building?

    I think we are good to go with keeping this team for as long as bankers life Fieldhouse is usable, but I do worry what's going to happen once that day comes that we need something newer.
    Wal Mart doesn't have any tickets to lucrative sporting events to hand out to mayors like the Pacers do. I guess they could bribe politicians with some Sam's Club memberships, but that's hardly as cool as Pacer-Heat tickets.

    These politicians receive tickets to the games. You can't expect them to tell the truth as to whether the team is losing money or not. I've never believed that they have, at least not for a period as long as they make us believe. The worth of the Pacers franchise has increased by hundreds of millions since the Simons bought the team. How could the worth of a business increase by such a drastic amount if it was constantly losing a ton of money? It makes no sense at all.

    If a team like the Pacers really has lost as much money as they lead us to believe, then the NBA by any objective measure is a complete and utter failure of a business model.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I mean how much does a community pay Walmart to help build its building?
    More than you would think. Look at Plainfield where there are 3 buildings in a quarter mile that either have previously had or currently have a WalMart in them (and Im old enough to remember the first two). Theres a reason that Walmart would build a new building about every ten years.... Tax breaks.
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Billionaire welfare, and me and many other people who work as hard as we possibly can, can barely put food on the table after the bills are paid. And I refuse to get government help because I don't think people should be forced onto it because suits all over the world are allowed to immorally suck money from the poor at an alarmingly increasing rate, but billionaires have no problem holding their hand out.

    I've been a die hard Pacers fan for almost 20 years now, but this is nonsense. My limited time and money could be spent elsewhere. If they can't make money, then they don't need to be in business. They can pay Hibbert 15 million a year to play a freaking game, but they can't afford to go it alone without government money? I know this is the norm, and small markets pretty much do this just to compete, but why exactly should we be stuck with the bill so a billionaire and his heirs can make a **** ton of money and sell the franchise someday to someone who could just move it to a different city anyways?

    Maybe crap like this will spell the end of my sports fanaticism. Honestly I could live without the Colts and the Pacers, and my time could be spent doing more important stuff. I may not be at that point yet, but billionaire welfare is driving me to question my allegiances.
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 08-28-2013 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    Billionaire welfare, and me and many other people who work as hard as we possibly can can barely put food on the table after the bills are paid. And I refuse to get government help because I don't think people should be forced onto it because suits all over the world are allowed to immorally suck money from the poor at an alarmingly increasing rate, but billionaires have no problem holding their hand out.

    I've been a die hard Pacers fan for almost 20 years now, but this is nonsense. My limited time and money could be spent elsewhere. If they can't make money, then they don't need to be in business. They can pay Hibbert 15 million a year to play a freaking game, but they can't afford to go it alone without government money? I know this is the norm, and small markets pretty much do this just to compete, but why exactly should we be stuck with the bill so a billionaire and his heirs can make a **** ton of money and sell the franchise someday to someone who could just move it to a different city anyways?

    Maybe crap like this will spell the end of my sports fanaticism. Honestly I could live without the Colts and the Pacers, and my time could be spent doing more important stuff. I may not be at that point yet, but billionaire welfare is driving me to question my allegiances.

    Well said. I agree with everything except the being able to live without the Colts and Pacers part.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    More than you would think. Look at Plainfield where there are 3 buildings in a quarter mile that either have previously had or currently have a WalMart in them (and Im old enough to remember the first two). Theres a reason that Walmart would build a new building about every ten years.... Tax breaks.
    And then they get to suck in billions of dollars in profits and pay their workers so low they literally hand out government assistance forms the moment you get the job. How does Costco pay their workers double and still pull in more than enough profit? Costco should be getting tax breaks in Indiana to run Walmart out of business in my book...This whole country is just messed up and sickening anymore. The gap between the rich and everyone else just keeps growing and growing, and there is nothing being done to actually fix the problem because our crooked politicians are just two wings to the same bird...Third party, grassroots political efforts are my only hope, but as long as people are brainwashed by Fox and CNN there is no reason to have any hope...

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Well said. I agree with everything except the being able to live without the Colts and Pacers part.
    I didn't say it would be easy, but I could do it. The Colts more than the Pacers, because let's face it, I get way more excited for the start of football season.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    I think we need to take a step back here.

    First, I completely understand what people are saying as far as giving rich people money, but the fact is this is the going rate for ANY sports team. If a federal law was passed to stop tax dollars going to arenas, the money would still come from the pockets of citizens.

    The fact is, if BLF is empty, the upkeep money still has to be paid, but with the Pacers in there at least there's money coming into the city.

    Also, lets think about all the Simons have done for this city. It's been a good relationship for both sides.
    Last edited by billbradley; 08-29-2013 at 12:33 AM.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Well said. I agree with everything except the being able to live without the Colts and Pacers part.
    This is my problem. I'm disgusted by the way pro leagues operate in the vast majority of cases, but I honestly can't picture what I'd do if I weren't a Pacers and Colts fan, Pacers especially. I've been a fan my entire life, it's part of who I am now. To non-sports fans I'm sure that seems asinine, and it is if we're being honest, but it'd be like someone who's been playing their entire life just never touching a guitar again or something. It'd be one thing if I lived elsewhere, could be outta sight outta mind, but I'm an hour from Indy, there's no way I could just ignore the team. So I just have to live with being a hypocritical moral relativist I guess.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Costco can get away with paying higher wages and still make a profit because they're the "NBA" of retail stores. All the best and skilled employees from all the Wal-Marts, K-Marts, Targets, etc. go there to make more money. The Wal-Marts and such couldn't pay as much because there are not enough skilled employees to fill all the Wal-Marts.

    As for those that say other companies don't receive 'help' isn't necessarily true either. States compete for jobs all the time, and often will make exceptions for certain companies to come in their state or stay in their state. I'm not sure of any specific deals, but I may look and see what I can find.

    Edit: For example, there are things like the 'Headquarters Relocation Tax Credit' that goes to other corporations to get them here.
    Last edited by Richard_Skull; 08-28-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    I think we need to take a step back here.

    First, I completely understand what people or saying as far as giving rich people money, but the fact is this the going rate for ANY sports team. If a federal law was passed to stop tax dollars going to arenas, the money would still come for the pockets of citizens.

    The fact is, if BLF is empty, the upkeep money still has to be paid, but with Pacers in there at least there's money coming into the city.

    Also, lets think about all the Simons have done for this city. It's been a good relationship for both sides.
    You make great points. And that is why sometimes it is best to refrain from saying anything at all. Because you can see validity on each side and there really is no right or wrong answer. Because like you point out, the city is probably banking on a sold out field house for the foreseeable future. The reward is worth the risk to them. The ECF brought more worldwide attention to Indianapolis than anything since the Super Bowl. The tax dollars could be rolling in for them as a result of keeping the team there with whatever it takes.

    It's just sometimes you want to lash out at the system. I feel that someone who works hard should be able to drive up to Indianapolis a few times a year and watch the Pacers with their kid and maybe have lower level seats and not have to sacrifice important things like college funds and health care, but even those seem impossible to afford. But as it stands it would be hard to do nose bleeds and the only reason anyone that only makes between $300-$500 on a single income could do that is because they have their priorities wrong in the first place what their spending their money on unless they have great benefits at their job already. 90 percent of people in Indiana make that or less. And some people are just very frugal and smart and could do it but let's face it the money could easily be spent on other important things. It's just much easier not to sacrifice and only go to one game or maybe none and watch almost all of the others with a better view at home anyways. But while it is better seeing it on TV because we're old and know it all, as a young kid I feel that it I became a fan because I went to some games.

    I wasn't calling out Simon exclusively, I am a huge fan of the whole franchise and he did for downtown Indianapolis through and through. But I'm just saying that it may become harder in the future to breed fans because more and more people can't afford to go to the games. I bet we still see an empty Fieldhouse against a bottom feeder on a weekday in the winter even if the weather is manageable. I don't care how many tickets they say are sold, until they can actually sell tickets for anything at all and the people show up and the place is packed all year will I say that things are looking up. If people had money then it would be all good. 90 percent of Indiana has lost over half of their purchasing power in the last twelve years. And people wonder why the games are empty and they are discounting tickets almost to free all year. Some people just prioritize their money to other more important things and watch at home with a better view and great commentary on FSI.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    More than you would think. Look at Plainfield where there are 3 buildings in a quarter mile that either have previously had or currently have a WalMart in them (and Im old enough to remember the first two). Theres a reason that Walmart would build a new building about every ten years.... Tax breaks.
    We are getting a Wal Mart Neighborhood Market here soon!


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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I guess when I see this and I think about how different communities have to pony up millions of dollars to help pay for these arenas, I just feel like there's possibly some kind of exploitation going on. I mean how much does a community pay Walmart to help build its building?

    I think we are good to go with keeping this team for as long as bankers life Fieldhouse is usable, but I do worry what's going to happen once that day comes that we need something newer.
    That's exactly what's going on.... but I don't want to lose the Pacers.... essentially the common man's options are: pay or we leave. The community houses a billionaire's business venture. It's subtle coercion or extortion, really.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    This is my problem. I'm disgusted by the way pro leagues operate in the vast majority of cases, but I honestly can't picture what I'd do if I weren't a Pacers and Colts fan, Pacers especially. I've been a fan my entire life, it's part of who I am now. To non-sports fans I'm sure that seems asinine, and it is if we're being honest, but it'd be like someone who's been playing their entire life just never touching a guitar again or something. It'd be one thing if I lived elsewhere, could be outta sight outta mind, but I'm an hour from Indy, there's no way I could just ignore the team. So I just have to live with being a hypocritical moral relativist I guess.
    These sentiments are exactly why teams can get funding for their stadiums like they do. I feel the same way you do.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    I wish people would stop complaining about how much the Pacers get from the city. It costs almost 50 million a year to maintenance Lucas Oil. Not to mention the sales tax increase that goes directly to funding that stadium.
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    If the City of Indianapolis offers me $21,000,000.00 because I'm good for business then I'm taking that check to the bank!

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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I just feel like there's possibly some kind of exploitation going on. I mean how much does a community pay Walmart to help build its building?
    Well, there is a HP facility on the north side of Indianapolis that was built with Marion county tax dollars that receives an annual tax abatement. Pro Sports isn't the only patron that bellies itself up to the bar of gov't giveaways. Oh, the rotten thing about the HP deal... The city gave all this to HP on the guise that it would fill this facility with Indy workers... The facility fills 85% of its jobs with staffing service temps. Not the real jobs that I would expect as a taxpayer for giving HP a facility and tax free land!
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Well, there is a HP facility on the north side of Indianapolis that was built with Marion county tax dollars that receives an annual tax abatement. Pro Sports isn't the only patron that bellies itself up to the bar of gov't giveaways. Oh, the rotten thing about the HP deal... The city gave all this to HP on the guise that it would fill this facility with Indy workers... The facility fills 85% of its jobs with staffing service temps. Not the real jobs that I would expect as a taxpayer for giving HP a facility and tax free land!
    And then when the abatement runs out they get out of dodge.
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    Default Re: New CIB budget inclues $21mm for potential new Pacers deal

    Just ask Seattle if given the chance to fund a public arena again to bring back the Sonics or other team if they would do it.

    I can assure you the answer would mostly be yes.

    I'm not saying it's right but from the NBA's point of view if one city won't step up another will. But it's not just an NBA thing, let's please not forget that they haven't always been the Indianapolis Colts.


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