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Thread: Andrew Luck!!!!

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    And neither QB won a ring without Adam Vinateri either... you can make so many arguments here... there are so many factors that are involved in winning championships.. I do think Brady gets a bit of a pass though because he won 3 rings early in his career. I mean I thought he played worse than Manning against the Ravens in the playoffs and not nearly as much grief either.
    It's not just championships though. Brady also doesn't have near as many of the brutal one and done home playoff losses. Those really hurt Manning. Again, not all of them are his fault, but his play left a lot to be desired in many of them.

    Brady certainly hasn't looked as sharp in the postseason recently, but three rings and five Super Bowl appearances is three rings and five Super Bowl appearances.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I love Peyton but in a big game I would take Brady every time. Like I said before, even body language tells a big story. Brady almost always looks confident where Manning a lot of times just doesn't in pressure games. Anybody who says they haven't noticed this is kidding themselves IMO.
    So PM having the most come from behind wins in NFL history isn't an indication of his clutchness? Looking at the whole picture is a lot better than looking at part of it.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Er for some people I think Kobe was a better player than LeBron and it wasn't about rings I find Kobe to be a more complete player..

    LeBron is a better athlete though.
    Welp, I'm out.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So PM having the most come from behind wins in NFL history isn't an indication of his clutchness? Looking at the whole picture is a lot better than looking at part of it.
    Something to be admired but you don't win championships in the regular season. The pressure is doubled in the post season. Peyton has had good games here and there in the post season but he flat out hasn't stepped it up more times than not.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They don't need to be disregarded, but they need to be less emphasized. It is a tad bit silly when comparing two individuals to compare their teams. Unless someone is ready to argue that Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino.

    The real ironic part of this decade old argument is how the criticism used to be "Peyton needs to get a ring" and now it's morphed into "Peyton doesn't have enough rings." No one will ever convince me that TB is a better QB than Peyton. He might have more SB rings, and he might have a better looking wife, but I reject placing the most emphasis on team success when talking about individual talent.
    But I don't think you're ever going to hear a serious NFL observer say that Dilfer is a better QB than Marino. Likewise, you're not going to hear many people say that Eli is better than Peyton. It's obviously silly to use rings when you're comparing quarterbacks of vastly different skill sets. Eli isn't on Peyton's level because Peyton routinely plays at an elite level and gets into the playoffs every year, whereas Eli has often looked played so poorly that the Giants can't even make it to the postseason.

    But it's very fair to use postseason when you're comparing Brady and Manning because both of these guys are in the same elite class of quarterback. Both of these guys more or less have identical regular season success. They each win a boatload of games every season and almost always win their divisions. They are the elite of the elite as far as regular season quarterbacking is concerned. So what's left to differentiate between them? The playoffs, and the playoffs clearly tilt it in Brady's favor.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    The best team in the NFL rarely wins the Super Bowl. The Colts weren't the best team when they did. They were a few times when they didn't.

    There's too much luck involved with winning a single elimination tournament for me to use that to determine an individual's greatness.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    But I don't think you're ever going to hear a serious NFL observer say that Dilfer is a better QB than Marino. Likewise, you're not going to hear many people say that Eli is better than Peyton. It's obviously silly to use rings when you're comparing quarterbacks of vastly different skill sets. Eli isn't on Peyton's level because Peyton routinely plays at an elite level and gets into the playoffs every year, whereas Eli has often looked played so poorly that the Giants can't even make it to the postseason.

    But it's very fair to use postseason when you're comparing Brady and Manning because both of these guys are in the same elite class of quarterback. Both of these guys more or less have identical regular season success. They each win a boatload of games every season and almost always win their divisions. They are the elite of the elite as far as regular season quarterbacking is concerned. So what's left to differentiate between them? The playoffs, and the playoffs clearly tilt it in Brady's favor.
    But it doesn't matter that Brady was not considered elite in the years they did win a Super Bowl?
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    But it doesn't matter that Brady was not considered elite in the years they did win a Super Bowl?
    He was certainly considered elite by the time they won their second and third Super Bowls.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He was certainly considered elite by the time they won their second and third Super Bowls.
    Before 2004, he wasn't ever in the top 5 in yards, touchdowns, passer rating, or any other statistic that would be used to evaluate an elite quarterback. He never made an All-Pro team until 2005.

    He wasn't considered an elite quarterback while they were winning Super Bowls.
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  12. #110

    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Listen, I'm not going to sit here and say Peyton doesn't deserve a huge part of the blame for why we didn't win more playoff games than we should have. There were so many times when our offense stalled, we had absolutely no running game, and Peyton refused to even try to run the ball. We had so many more 3 and outs in the playoffs than we ever did during the regular season. It was mind boggling. The difference in the playoffs is that everybody's intensity goes up multiple times. The problem with how our offense was constructed was that it was based off of timing and route precision, so the defense's extra intensity allowed the players to jump routes and made their physical play disruptive to our timing. Peyton was unable or unwilling to adjust to that in the playoffs and we suffered for it. Look at the year we won. We ran the ball down their throats and minimized Peyton's throwing, the AFC title game being the exception where Peyton abused the Pats. Peyton was generally never awful in the playoffs, but he was never able to raise his game.

    I place the lion's share of blame on Bill Polian and Tony Dungy. Our defense was utter ****. They were inept and completely unable to stop anybody, and they would give up these ridiculously long drives and therefore never let the offense get the ball very often during the game. Not only that, but our defense was incapable of getting TOs or special teams incapable of getting field position past the 20 yard line, which meant that everytime we wanted to score, we would have to march all the way down the field. Every. Freaking. Time. It's really hard to win in the playoffs if your defense doesn't do **** for you. And the blame on that goes to Dungy, whose defensive philosophy is ridiculous and worthless, and Polian, whose arrogance probably cost us multiple titles for his unwillingness to take his head out of his *** and do something to fix that defense. Those are the two I blame the most.

    I'm not a huge fan of the West Coast offense, but our defense plays anything like it has the last 2 preseason games, with Luck at QB, we are going to kick some *** this year.
    Last edited by Suaveness; 08-28-2013 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Before 2004, he wasn't ever in the top 5 in yards, touchdowns, passer rating, or any other statistic that would be used to evaluate an elite quarterback. He never made an All-Pro team until 2005.

    He wasn't considered an elite quarterback while they were winning Super Bowls.

    By the time the third Super Bowl was over, I think he was definitely considered elite. He posted a 100.5 passer rating in the second Super Bowl, and a 110.2 rating in the third. Even if he wasn't top 5 in any of the regular season metrics, he was an ace in the postseason.

  15. #112
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    I do agree that the Colts were not built for the playoffs during the Manning years and I absolutely do put a lot of the blame on Polian's arrogance and flawed defensive scheme. What should have been a great Colts era of multi championships never came to pass. Even Irsay said the era was a disappointment. That baloney small, fast defense, play with the lead, bend but don't break nonsense doesn't work that well if you can't build a lead on a frozen tundra field of NE.

  16. #113
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    At one time the book was the Colts were going to score a lot of points so to beat them you had to score whenever you could. And as much as you could. That meant gambling on 4th and 1 instead punting and playing field position. It meant going for it and leaving an almost sure FG off the board and instead trying to get a TD or another series of downs in the red zone. It meant trying to go downfield quickly in the air rather than grounding it out. Of course it meant gadget plays and on sides kicks.

    But it quickly spread around that old fundamentals were still at play. If you ground and pound then the Manning offense is on the bench. If the Colts defense isn't able to stop the run then why bother gambling on gadget plays and throwing the ball? The fewer possession you give the Colts the more pressure you put on Manning and the offense to be perfect. That kind of pressure has never been Manning's forte because eventually he tries to throw the hero ball... and sometimes it worked and others you were left wondering what he was thinking. The Colts' run defense was so bad that teams could run even on passing downs. Two reasons for that really... one being the team was intentionally weak against the run because coaching or management never adjusted to the idea other teams wouldn't be madly scrambling to score early and often. And the other being the 'always on' pass rush mentality that saw the team be super susceptible to delayed handoffs. For example: Just let Freeney go head-hunting for the QB, spin himself out of his lane, and then hand the ball to the RB who now hits the lane that Freeney just vacated.

    I still think the Colts won their SB because the team finished the season SO BAD against the run that they simply sold out to stop it in the playoffs (or else be one and done) and nobody actually adjusted. Plus obviously the return of Bob Sanders helped.

    Anyway... I agree with Suaveness. The playoffs were going to ramp things up to negate reg season success and expose weaknesses. IMHO Once the house of cards was exposed and everybody realized the Colts' defense was built to funnel teams right into the perfect offense to beat them (just take what the Colts gave you and be conservative) then TPTB needed to make changes. They never did.

    It appears Irsay has learned a lesson from that. At least I hope so....
    Last edited by Bball; 08-28-2013 at 05:58 PM.
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  18. #114
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I do agree that the Colts were not built for the playoffs during the Manning years and I absolutely do put a lot of the blame on Polian's arrogance and flawed defensive scheme. What should have been a great Colts era of multi championships never came to pass. Even Irsay said the era was a disappointment. That baloney small, fast defense, play with the lead, bend but don't break nonsense doesn't work that well if you can't build a lead on a frozen tundra field of NE.
    You start the season with a small and fast defense and by the time the season is winding down they are nicked up and beat up and not nearly so fast... but they're still small!
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  20. #115

    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    This is one of my favorite charts. It shows very well how Tom Brady's teams and Peyton Manning's teams have been virtually identical offensively during the postseason:

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...edition/21247/

    Brady's teams punt a little more while Manning's teams turn it over a little more. Manning's teams have had worse starting field position on average, but he has gained a little more yardage per drive than Brady's teams have, which is why their points per drive are virtually identical.

    Now should have Manning's offenses been better than Brady's offenses in the playoffs? Probably, but not quite as much as it would feel like on first instinct. Brady's offensive lines have almost always been better, and each have had inconsistent running games (Manning's in particular was awful in his later years with the Colts). Manning's receiving options on average have been quite a bit better, so it just depends on what you feel like you value more to determine how big the advantage was on talent around them.

    But what it does show is that the Colts losses have not been because the offense sputtered while the Patriots offense soared. They've been really close, but the Patriots defensive and special teams advantages have helped them win more postseason games.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    And neither QB won a ring without Adam Vinateri either... you can make so many arguments here... there are so many factors that are involved in winning championships.. I do think Brady gets a bit of a pass though because he won 3 rings early in his career. I mean I thought he played worse than Manning against the Ravens in the playoffs and not nearly as much grief either.
    It is kind of hilarious that Brady has lost his last 2 SB's against, in my opinion, inferior Giants team, yet he is never called out as a choker.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    It is kind of hilarious that Brady has lost his last 2 SB's against, in my opinion, inferior Giants team, yet he is never called out as a choker.
    I don't remember Brady being the reason they lost. But then again, neither game stands out except they were both close and the Giants had that one ginormous catch on the game-winning, crunch-time drive.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    I think there was a reason we had small, fast defenses --- they are cheaper. Indy had 65% of it's cap tied up in the offense. It was just the direction they went in. Investing so much in the offense put butts in the seats for a franchise that sorely needed some butts. Unfortunately, as we've all come to find out.... offense rarely wins champions by itself. I dunno, the philosophy turned Indy into a football town, so I can't say it didn't work. But I like the direction they're going in now.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I think there was a reason we had small, fast defenses --- they are cheaper. Indy had 65% of it's cap tied up in the offense. It was just the direction they went in. Investing so much in the offense put butts in the seats for a franchise that sorely needed some butts. Unfortunately, as we've all come to find out.... offense rarely wins champions by itself. I dunno, the philosophy turned Indy into a football town, so I can't say it didn't work. But I like the direction they're going in now.
    wait until Luck gets his new mega contract, that's where Grigson'll have to earn his stripes. not on getting Luck at a fair price (he'll basically get a blank check), but building a balanced, strong team around that contract after Luck's salary probably quintuples.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    I never really thought that Peyton threw the offensive line under the bus after that horrible Divisional Round loss against the Steelers. Saying that the line had some protection problems was just telling the truth without being an *** about it. But of course the media blew it out of proportion like they always do. Win as a team and lose as one, and I'm sure he put blame on himself in that postgame interview as well. But it's over and in the past.

    Polian and Dungy have to take some blame as some of you have already said. We had 2 Super Bowl appearances with the Dungy and Polian philosophy and only one win. Which I'm not complaining about, but we probably should have had more.

    As hard as it was to see Peyton go, I'm glad we decided to start over and end the Dungy/Polian kind of thinking and I loved Dungy, but it just simply wasn't getting it done enough. As for Polian, let's just say I don't share the same respect for him as I do for Dungy.

    and let's win some damn Super Bowls!
    Last edited by Lord Helmet; 08-29-2013 at 03:13 AM.
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  28. #121
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Well at least the Andrew Luck thread has turned from the **** on RGIII thread to the ***** on Peyton Manning thread. Heads up Russell Wilson, you're next.

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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    Something to be admired but you don't win championships in the regular season. The pressure is doubled in the post season. Peyton has had good games here and there in the post season but he flat out hasn't stepped it up more times than not.
    The body language is the exact same in those comebacks and in those defeats. Saying you can look at body language and tell how someone reacts under pressure, just doesn't realy make all that much sense when body language is constant eventhough outcomes differ.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    But I don't think you're ever going to hear a serious NFL observer say that Dilfer is a better QB than Marino. Likewise, you're not going to hear many people say that Eli is better than Peyton. It's obviously silly to use rings when you're comparing quarterbacks of vastly different skill sets. Eli isn't on Peyton's level because Peyton routinely plays at an elite level and gets into the playoffs every year, whereas Eli has often looked played so poorly that the Giants can't even make it to the postseason.

    But it's very fair to use postseason when you're comparing Brady and Manning because both of these guys are in the same elite class of quarterback. Both of these guys more or less have identical regular season success. They each win a boatload of games every season and almost always win their divisions. They are the elite of the elite as far as regular season quarterbacking is concerned. So what's left to differentiate between them? The playoffs, and the playoffs clearly tilt it in Brady's favor.

    You could compare their performances in the playoffs. That's my point. We have statistical measures that are directly comparable for individuals, that don't put so much emphasis on team wins/losses.

    You're skipping over individual measurables to employ team comparables, when comparing individuals.
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You could compare their performances in the playoffs. That's my point. We have statistical measures that are directly comparable for individuals, that don't put so much emphasis on team wins/losses.

    You're skipping over individual measurables to employ team comparables, when comparing individuals.
    But don't Colts fans like to bring up the fact that Manning is number 2 on the all time career regular season wins list?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_wi...back_%28NFL%29

    Any discussion about Manning's greatness is going to undoubtedly mention his team's incredible regular season success, as it should. In general, it seems as though Colt fans have no trouble using regular season team success to prop up Manning, but they want to throw team success out the window when the playoffs are brought up.

    Everything is important and should be brought into the debate. It's not an either/or thing. You can look at Brady and Manning's individual statistics, while also looking at their teams successes. In Brady and Manning's case, everything is super close except for the team success in the playoffs. That's enough to move the needle in Brady's favor, IMHO.

    If Manning had Brady's playoff record, then I have no doubt that it would be one of the first things that Colts fans would use in any debate.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-29-2013 at 01:15 PM.

  33. #125
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    Default Re: Andrew Luck!!!!

    My opinion as a Manning fan is.... he is the greatest regular season QB of all time... and a really, really, really good post-season QB. It sort of seems like there really hasn't been a QB come along who's equally impressive in both. Most elite QBs seem to shine in one or the other. Either they are inconsistent in the regular season, but step up several notches in the post-season.... or they rock the regular season regularly, and then sort of don't match the intensity in the playoffs and have early exits. Eli would be in the former group, and Peyton in the latter group. Sorta funny how opposite two brothers are.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 08-29-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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