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Thread: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

  1. #26
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    I understand you making the police curious. I understand you, doing nothing wrong, not liking the implication that you are/were or could be.

    IMHO the police should be fairly meek when questioning you or interacting in this circumstance. No need for attitude here UNLESS you react badly (running, obviously lying, etc). As much as it would make their job easier if they could just intimidate you to go somewhere else, this isn't about making their job easier.

    But from the other side of the coin... You could be scouting places where nobody is home or that look like easy future targets for a break in and just be pretending to be on a run. That's the world we live in. That's why I give them some leeway in at least having some interaction with you... BUT there is a line they should stay behind IMHO. No need for them to be anything but friendly... and same for you in that case...

    I hate situations where the attitude of LE actually escalates a situation.
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  3. #27
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    I agree with Bball.

    Reminds me of this video:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3232925.html

  4. #28

    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Ever think of just going somewhere else to run ??

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  6. #29
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Ever think of just going somewhere else to run ??
    I'm not sure but that we've not reached the point this will happen about anywhere he runs. The only question mark being how quick, easy, long, intimidating the inevitable questioning will be.

    I think the consensus is he can expect to be followed, watched, and probably stopped more than expect not to be.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I'm not trying to tell anyone what opinion to have about this. I'm only explaining what MY opinion is and why. Obviously you hold a different opinion. As far as the 100% right or 100% wrong goes, unfortunately that's how our justice system works. Nobody has ever received a 65% innocent verdict.
    Huh? This isn't a criminal trial, or even a lawsuit, so that really doesn't have relevance to our opinions on his run-ins with the police on his walks.

    In any case in our justice system you could be found guilty of some charges but not others in the same case.

  8. #31
    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Well fine if you want me to spell out the law I will. Here's the actual law covering this, copied and pasted from the state website.

    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar28/ch5.html

    IC 34-28-5-3
    Detention
    Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
    (1) inform the person of the allegation;
    (2) obtain the person's:
    (A) name, address, and date of birth; or
    (B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
    (3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
    As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

    Some laws are open for interpretation. This one is pretty clear. To me, the key words here are "in good faith". I think we would all agree that believing "in good faith" a crime was being committed wouldn't require an officer to lie about his probable cause. The second officer didn't even bother making up probable cause. He just asked for ID without ANY right to do so. Section 3(1) makes it pretty clear the officer has to tell him why he's being asked for ID, which according to the original post, the officer did not do. So yes, in my opinion, BOTH of these officers were 100% wrong to do what they did and are themselves guilty of breaking the laws they made an oath to uphold.

    One thing I would add, is that many times in small towns, officers are not full time employees, and sometimes are even volunteers. So it's easy to see where the officer may not even be an expert in law enforcement and not know how to properly apply the law. But even so, that's not anyone's problem but the officer's and the town.
    Last edited by travmil; 07-29-2013 at 08:53 AM.

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  10. #32

    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm not sure but that we've not reached the point this will happen about anywhere he runs. The only question mark being how quick, easy, long, intimidating the inevitable questioning will be.

    I think the consensus is he can expect to be followed, watched, and probably stopped more than expect not to be.
    Look at it this way ..... you're sitting on your front porch some nite around midnite and some guy goes running by. Your reaction is ?????

    It's not the normal time of day to assume someone is exercising. You're going to have questions, but you're too damn scared to stop the guy and ask him. A LEO isn't afraid to stop him and ask him WTF is going on. Answer his questions, thank him for doing his job and carry on.

    I see no harassment here at all. Just someone doing their job.

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  12. #33
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Well fine if you want me to spell out the law I will. Here's the actual law covering this, copied and pasted from the state website.

    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar28/ch5.html

    IC 34-28-5-3
    Detention
    Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
    (1) inform the person of the allegation;
    (2) obtain the person's:
    (A) name, address, and date of birth; or
    (B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
    (3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
    As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

    Some laws are open for interpretation. This one is pretty clear. To me, the key words here are "in good faith". I think we would all agree that believing "in good faith" a crime was being committed wouldn't require an officer to lie about his probable cause. The second officer didn't even bother making up probable cause. He just asked for ID without ANY right to do so. Section 3(1) makes it pretty clear the officer has to tell him why he's being asked for ID, which according to the original post, the officer did not do. So yes, in my opinion, BOTH of these officers were 100% wrong to do what they did and are themselves guilty of breaking the laws they made an oath to uphold.

    One thing I would add, is that many times in small towns, officers are not full time employees, and sometimes are even volunteers. So it's easy to see where the officer may not even be an expert in law enforcement and not know how to properly apply the law. But even so, that's not anyone's problem but the officer's and the town.
    If the law explicitly states that they cannot even ask for the ID of somebody walking around late at night unless they truly believe someone is committing a crime or an ordinance violation, then fair enough that's the law, but that's not really my point. My ultimate point here, as it was to begin with, is that I personally don't see anything morally wrong with what they are doing aside from the part where they lied. So even if they were technically going against the law in every instance here, I personally don't have a problem with it except for the lie.

    To go back and be technical, my opinions aside, I would be curious to know exactly what an ordinance violation is defined as, what detain is defined as, and I would also like to know explicitly if a police officer is or is not allowed to merely ask for identification at any given point in time. I have a suspicion that they can ask whenever they want, for any reason, but I'm wondering if there is a distinction made between when they can merely ask versus when it is legal for them to physically stop someone and essentially force them to give it to them without probable cause. I suspect the latter is what detain is referring to in the law, but I don't know.

  13. #34
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    According to Wikipedia, there are three types of police stops; Consensual, Detainment, and Arrest.

    Consensual is a conversation between police and citizen. They can ask questions, but you do not have to identify yourself or provide ID, and are free to go at any time. Detainment is when the officer has his "probable cause" to believe a crime has been committed. This is where you must identify yourself by name, address and date of birth or provide ID if you have it on you. Arrest is self explanatory, you're under arrest for a crime and they will read you your rights. The problem here as I see it, is the first officer tried to turn a consensual stop into a detainment by lying about his probable cause. The second officer didn't even allow it to be a consensual stop and demanded ID on the spot when he had no right. I wish Skaut_Ech would weigh in on this so we could get a real expert opinion instead of just a bunch of people interpreting a law.
    Last edited by travmil; 07-29-2013 at 10:24 AM.

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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Thanks for the definitions. I still feel the same way I did before; the liar is in the wrong, but the rest is consensual to me. They asked, he responded, he didn't have to, and unless he didn't and then in turn they made him, neither party was in the wrong at that point IMO. I just think the one guy was a dick for lying.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    The OP is free to ask the Officer "Am I being detained?" If the officer says "no, I just want to ask you some questions" Then legally he is allowed to walk away, or politely ask "Am I free to go?"

    If the officer says yes you are being detained then you ask "What have I done wrong, and am
    I under arrest?" Legally they have to answer those 2 questions. If they can not then they have not established any sort of probable cause to stop you.

    I should also warn you all out there who think its just the cop doing his job, when a cops stops you to ask you questions it is because you are a person of interest to them. You immediately need to ask yourself why is this cop talking to me. DO I have any important information to give him that could solve a crime? If not, then shut up. You all need to understand that a cop can lie right to your face to try and get an answer out of you or to get you to reveal something they want to know. You really have no idea of what their true intentions are. It might be that somebody just gave them a tip that a person loosely matching your description was seen robbing a drug store, in that area. What if you had couple hundred dollars in your wallet at the time? Remember the law doesn't have morals, they are trying to establish you as a criminal from the get go.
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  17. #37
    Member RWB's Avatar
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Interesting segment in case you think all those cops are mean old guys just wanting to pick on people.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7366128n
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  18. #38
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The OP is free to ask the Officer "Am I being detained?" If the officer says "no, I just want to ask you some questions" Then legally he is allowed to walk away, or politely ask "Am I free to go?"

    If the officer says yes you are being detained then you ask "What have I done wrong, and am
    I under arrest?" Legally they have to answer those 2 questions. If they can not then they have not established any sort of probable cause to stop you.

    I should also warn you all out there who think its just the cop doing his job, when a cops stops you to ask you questions it is because you are a person of interest to them. You immediately need to ask yourself why is this cop talking to me. DO I have any important information to give him that could solve a crime? If not, then shut up. You all need to understand that a cop can lie right to your face to try and get an answer out of you or to get you to reveal something they want to know. You really have no idea of what their true intentions are. It might be that somebody just gave them a tip that a person loosely matching your description was seen robbing a drug store, in that area. What if you had couple hundred dollars in your wallet at the time? Remember the law doesn't have morals, they are trying to establish you as a criminal from the get go.
    That's what's scary and wrong about situations like these. I don't have to talk so the officer makes up a probable cause(running from a church) so he can detain me if necessary. If I would have refused to answer any of his questions he could take me in for NO REASON. Now it's easy to see why I was on the defensive. When it's just you and the officer out there at that hour and there are no other witnesses, he can make up probable cause to take you in and you are screwed. Who is the system going to believe? You or the officer? THAT is what left a bad taste in my mouth. As soon as he lied I knew it wasn't a normal situation.

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  20. #39
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    Default Re: In Your Opinion Is This Harassment By Small Town Cops?(running at night)

    After getting stopped by a cop in my own neighborhood(been running at night a decade or more here) for the first time, I took a couple of your suggestions. I bought a reflective vest to wear with a zippered pocket to carry my drivers license in. Thanks for all your suggestions. Thinking about adding an LED armband as well. If the cops continue to harass me after all that we will have a problem

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