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Thread: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Right up front I want to deal with something Uncle Buck said in another thread. I had proclaimed Joe D the best G.M. because he was willing to take risks. U.B. then posted the following.

    "Let me first make sure we are talking about Sheed, right. That is who we are talking about. OK.

    A RISK, You are suggesting acquiring Sheed for nothing is a risk. I am blown away that you would think that. As soon as the trade went down I started a thread that strongly stated that the Pistons were now the best team in the east. There was no risk involved, zero.

    If the pacers would have acquired Sheed for players they did not want anyways, I would have been dancing in the streets

    A risk, I don't give Joe D any credit for that, that was a no brainer.

    Joe D. is a good GM.

    But Sheed was not a risk
    "

    Ok for my first question of this post who here agrees with this statement.

    Now before we move along & just accept U.B.'s logic based on Sheed's talent let's discuss who we are talking about.

    This is the same Rasheed Wallace that was ejected from the McDonald high school all-American game (Oh if only Bender could have done this how history would have changed).

    This is the same Wallace that was suspended for seven games for threatening a referee outside the Rose Garden.

    This is the same Wallace that was arrested for drug possesion charges the year before.

    This is the same Wallace that as a rookie in Washington was arrested & plead to abuse of his former girlfriend.

    This is the same Wallace that set the league record for technical fouls & ejections.

    This is the same Wallace that was suspended by his own team after he threw a towel in the face of one of his team mates (Sabonis) during a fourth quarter of a close game.

    This is the same Wallace that threw a basketball the length of the court hitting his team mate in the head (on purpose) & knocking him unconsciouse & then ran off giggling like a little school girl.

    I've decided to not put in the parts about him talking about the white establishement of the NBA or being pulled over multiple times for driving while suspended & without insurance.

    Wallace is one hell of a basketball player & as it turned out he worked out great for the Pistons. But it was not a riskless trade. If he would have come in with carefree attitude or caused any of the same old legal issues it could just have easily have blown up in Dumars face.

    I'll get to the main question now & yes I'm sure this will degenerate into an argument about Artest although I hope it doesn't.

    Is it possible for a player to be such a distraction off of the court & even on the court that he is a detriment to a team?

    NO, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RON ARTEST HERE! I'm talking Wallace.

    Ok, moving on.

    Rebounding has become an issue on this team, actually if I'm not mistaken we are the worst rebounding team in the NBA.

    Question # 2.

    Wasn't this a problem for Rick's team up in Detroit? For some reason I seem to remembe that Ben Wallace was a hell of a rebounder but as a team we seemed to get whatever we wanted.

    Question # 3. (part of # 2)

    Is it possible that Rick's ideas of not making the guards board be part of the problem? What good is transition defense when they still go right down & get whatever shot they want?

    Question # 4.

    What is the main flaw of our offense right now?

    Question # 5.

    What is the main flaw of our defense right now?

    Question # 6.

    Should Rick further explore lineup changes or is stability more important to the team right now?

    Question # 7.

    Is it Reggie or the coaching staff that is making him defer? I have my opinion on this but what is yours?

    Question # 8.

    Is ball movement or player movement more important in the offensive setting?

    Question # 9. (this is a big one btw)

    U.B. has stated his preferance to the low post inside/outside offense because it's impact (thanks Jay) My question is when did this become the way of the NBA? For you old timers out there that remember the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's of the NBA when did this inside/outside isolation crap become successfull? I seem to think it was the 94 season & the first team to use it to this extent was the Rockets. I mean the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, Blazers, Pistons, etc. never used this a primary offense in their heydays. Or did they? So officially when did this become envouge to use?

    Question # 10.

    Who is in charge of the Pacers on floor product? We had this debate a lot last season & a lot in the off-season. Does anybody still think Bird is the actual man in charge?

    That's all for now & please for the love of God don't let this degenerate into a Ron Artest is God/Devil post.

  2. #2
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    #1- From UB's standpoint, it wasnt risky because the Pistons werent winning anything WITHOUT him, and they only were committed to him for 3 months if he acted up.

    I do think Rasheed's off-court problems were overblown because they never affected him ON the court. Every one of Sheed's teamates gave him rave reviews wherever he goes.

    #2 Rick last year benefitted greatly from having Al Harrington off the bench, because he was an excellent offensive rebounder. Even with Artest this year, I felt that Rick changed this team to a perimeter offense. I thought he used the EXACT same offense he used in Detroit in 2002, when Ben Wallace led the league in rebounding, but the Pistons as a TEAM were dead-last.

    #3 My thoughts exactly. You guards are getting KILLED in transition anyway, may as well let them hit the boards.

    The problem is, I dont see Reggie Miller as much of a rebounder at his age, either.

    #4 Main flaw? You only have one guy shooting a decent percentage every game. Foster is a layup specialist, you have 8 guys who love the 3-ball, and Freddie Jones is being FORCED to shoot the three, because teams are playing him for the drive every time.

    #5 Main flaw on defense? Defensive rebounding and perimeter defense are a tie right now. Foster is an excellent offensive rebounder, but he cant defensive rebound worth a damn against bigger centers. JO has to play the role of Ben Wallace, and he;s not Ben Wallace.

    #6 Playing youth worked for Rick in the immidiate aftermath of the brawl. Young players dont know theyre supposed to lose, and they play with energy. Veteran players are reliable to beat bad teams, but theyre also reliable to LOSE to good teams. Rick's 2002 and 2003 teams were NOTORIOUS for going 0-5 and 0-6 on west coast trips for that reason.

    Personally, I'd play JJ at SF, or start Freddie and Reggie. AT the very least, itd add some spark. They look like corpses out there.

    #7 I'd say it's his age. I think Reggie benefitted from having 1 1/2 months off, but now its beginning to catch up to him. Like msot 39-yar olds, he's going to be there, but only maybe once a week.

    #8 depends on your offense. In the Pacers offense, ball movement is FAR more important, because rick has set up a perimeter oriented team, which puts a premium on drawing and kicking.

    #9 it became successful when the NBA went through the influx of great centers during the early 90's, and peaked with Hakeem Olajuwon. The Knicks used it with Ewing, SA did it with Olajuwon, Orlando did it with Shaq, etc.

    The only teams that still do this are Minnesota, and San Antonio. Minnesota doesnt do a great job of it, though. Garnett isnt made for that type of attack.

    Problem is, Im still not sure if JO is big or physically dominant enough to sustain being the ONLY guy down low for a full season. Thats a lonely place to be.

    #10 Donnie Walsh is the man until he retires. Its his franchise, not Larry Bird's.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    I'll take a crack at this... seeing how I am stuck at home waiting for floodwaters to go down so I can get out of the deadend road I live on....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Wallace is one hell of a basketball player & as it turned out he worked out great for the Pistons. But it was not a riskless trade. If he would have come in with carefree attitude or caused any of the same old legal issues it could just have easily have blown up in Dumars face.

    I'll get to the main question now & yes I'm sure this will degenerate into an argument about Artest although I hope it doesn't.

    Is it possible for a player to be such a distraction off of the court & even on the court that he is a detriment to a team?

    NO, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RON ARTEST HERE! I'm talking Wallace.

    It is... altho off court distractions can be managed to a point.... unless you bring them to the playing court. IE: dope smoker smoking before arriving at the arena. Partying late and missing/late for practice, planes, games.



    Ok, moving on.

    Rebounding has become an issue on this team, actually if I'm not mistaken we are the worst rebounding team in the NBA.

    Question # 2.

    Wasn't this a problem for Rick's team up in Detroit? For some reason I seem to remembe that Ben Wallace was a hell of a rebounder but as a team we seemed to get whatever we wanted.

    Wasn't this a problem for the Pacers with Bird as coach? Dale was designated rebounder and got his share but overall I don't remember us being a rebounding machine as a team.

    Maybe it is because we always have 7' projects on the team instead of role players who could contribute if called on? ...Nah... Hmmmm.... Well....

    Moving on....


    Question # 3. (part of # 2)

    Is it possible that Rick's ideas of not making the guards board be part of the problem? What good is transition defense when they still go right down & get whatever shot they want?

    Would our starting S guard get any boards anyway? Would Tinsley?

    If we'd hit our shots and not force things then cheating the guards back wouldn't be such an issue. As for defensive rebounds... you tell me...


    Question # 4.

    What is the main flaw of our offense right now?

    Stale! Predictable. Not very creative. JO doesn't pass out of double and triple teams very well and our players don't always move well without the ball. Opposing defenses don't pay for double and triple teaming JO. Our shooting guards don't shoot and Reggie especially is not very aggressive. Curry is pointless to the offense.

    I said it in the other post... I like the offense ran and executed like the team did for the Boston game. I can't imagine how it wouldn't be more effective with JO's presence ALTHO JO's numbers would be down.... other's would be up.


    Question # 5.

    What is the main flaw of our defense right now?

    Our unbalanced offense and the poor play at the wings.


    Question # 6.

    Should Rick further explore lineup changes or is stability more important to the team right now?

    Stability is important... But when something isn't working it isn't working. There is no value to stability when it is simply a 'stable failure'.

    I don't want to see the mad scientist approach either but some things seem obvious to me.


    Question # 7.

    Is it Reggie or the coaching staff that is making him defer? I have my opinion on this but what is yours?

    Surely it is Reggie. WHY would the coaching staff want him to defer so much and be so passive... unless they have no confidence in him?



    Question # 8.

    Is ball movement or player movement more important in the offensive setting?
    Ball movement and player movement WITHOUT the ball. Need them both.



    Question # 9. (this is a big one btw)

    U.B. has stated his preferance to the low post inside/outside offense because it's impact (thanks Jay) My question is when did this become the way of the NBA? For you old timers out there that remember the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's of the NBA when did this inside/outside isolation crap become successfull? I seem to think it was the 94 season & the first team to use it to this extent was the Rockets. I mean the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, Blazers, Pistons, etc. never used this a primary offense in their heydays. Or did they? So officially when did this become envouge to use?

    I was watching the Larry Bird DVD recently with all the clips of his playing career as well as 3 full games from his era. I didn't see this inside isolation stuff. I saw player movement and passing and good shots which led to made baskets.


    Question # 10.

    Who is in charge of the Pacers on floor product? We had this debate a lot last season & a lot in the off-season. Does anybody still think Bird is the actual man in charge?

    No idea anymore.... Walsh trumps Bird. I have no idea how much input Bird has. 25% 50% 75%?

    IOW if Bird said "Nobody wants Artest and he's bad for the team morale. He can't be trusted. Can our lawyers void his contract or just buy him out?" I don't know whether Walsh goes to work on it or says "Larry, slow down. We don't want to do that". And maybe they are on opposite sides of that debate. I just have no idea.


    That's all for now & please for the love of God don't let this degenerate into a Ron Artest is God/Devil post.

    Artest is the lightness and the darkness. He's both the way and the roadblock. He's everything and he's nothing. The best and the worst. ...And most importantly he is unavailable for the season so it doesn't matter.

    I will now work on my ark a bit before bed...

    -Bball
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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    well, to be fair, you were the most predictable offense in the NBA LAST year, too.....and you won 61 games.

    The differense is last year you had 3 big guns while this year you have one big gun and 5 or 6 little ones.....

    Also I believe the rule changes are starting to hit Indiana defensively. Even WITH Ron Artest, Indiana wasnt shutting down teams like they did last year. It got covered up by the fact all their shooters were red-hot, but now with some of those guys coming back to earth, its beginning to become more visible.

    Make no mistake though, you were an offensive basketball team from tipoff of game 1.

    Freddie Jones is by FAR your best perimeter ballhawk, but he's undersized in the post, and he just hasnt been the same since reggie came back. IF there's any connection there, I dont know.

    But at least Freddie doesnt let people blow by him.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Freddie Jones is by FAR your best perimeter ballhawk, but he's undersized in the post, and he just hasnt been the same since reggie came back. IF there's any connection there, I dont know.

    But at least Freddie doesnt let people blow by him.
    Earlier in the season I think Freddie was told "You're the man at SG and you've got a greenlight to make things happen".

    Now, I think he has been told... or assumes.... "JO is the man. Don't waste possessions. JO needs to touch the ball. Play it conservative"


    -Bball
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Wow, Kstat answered those questions so well, I have very little to add.

    1) Only thing I want to add to the Sheed discussion is that from what I understand current and former players and coaches generally had very few problems with him and they all said he was unselfish to a fault on offense and a great team defender. Refs hated him, the league hated him. Oh I'm sure a few former teammates hated him also. But the talent was never questioned. Like I said if the pacers could have acquired him last season for players that did not play a lot and some average draft picks, I would have been dancing in the streets, when the trade took place and at the end of June at the parade.

    2) Rebounding. The Pistons did not have very good rebounders besides Ben. Cliff was not. But Carlisle does not sacrifice any other part of the game for the sake of rebounding. Larry Brown will if he has to. Bird was the same way. Pacers attempt to challenge every shot and if that means they give up a rebound here or there, they can live with that.

    3) No team in the NBA sends more than 3 players to the offensive glass. Every team has two players, protect the backcourt. Besides how many rebounds is Reggie going to get. Rick generally wants at least 3 players back, and often 4.

    4) Main flaw on offense? Players trying to do too much on their own. That is what happens when a team struggles, the players try to make up for it on their own. They have to trust the system. The problem there is the system has changed at least three times this season. But that is the reason a team has a system, they need something to fall back on when thngs go bad.

    5) main problem on defense. (besides Ronnnie) Perimeter defense is bad.

    6) Stability is important right now until Jax comes back and perhaps Bender comes back.

    7) Reggie, more than the coaching staff, but both are.

    8) Interesting. I guess ball movement. Never thought about them separately though, always considered that player and ball movement went together

    I want to skip number 9 for the moment

    10) I think DW has overall authority, but Bird is starting to put his stamp on this team and has a lot of influence.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Question # 9. (this is a big one btw)

    U.B. has stated his preferance to the low post inside/outside offense because it's impact (thanks Jay) My question is when did this become the way of the NBA? For you old timers out there that remember the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's of the NBA when did this inside/outside isolation crap become successfull? I seem to think it was the 94 season & the first team to use it to this extent was the Rockets. I mean the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, Blazers, Pistons, etc. never used this a primary offense in their heydays. Or did they? So officially when did this become envouge to use?

    Sorry but I wanted to make a separate post on this topic. Celtics halfcourt offense was very much post up and inside - outside. But they had so many good passers, great passers, that any offense would succeed. Lakers posted up Kareem and in later years Magic and did a lot of Iso's with Worthy. Pistons went to Edwards to start the games, but then went to their pick and roll plays.

    The Bulls used a different offense, but when the shot clock wound down MJ would go one-on-one.

    Offenses that I like are ones that use some misdirection, some pick and rolls some ball reversal that ends up in a post up. I don't like walking the ball up and throwing it straight to the post. maybe with Shaq you can do this, but not with J.O, he needs to move around from side to side to get better position.

    On the other hand. The NBA is a changing. All you have to do is look at Seattle and Phoenix. They don't post their players, well the Suns to with Amare. Kstat has been making this point a lot lately about the new defensive rules, and I thought it was not having that much of an impact, well I was wrong, it has changed the game, When you add I the zone changes from a few years ago , things are drastically different. It is more important to have 5 really good scorers on the floor at the same time. And dribble penetration has become much more important.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Wow! Ok, well lots of interesting questions following up on this quote of yours UB:

    "Kstat has been making this point a lot lately about the new defensive rules, and I thought it was not having that much of an impact, well I was wrong, it has changed the game, When you add I the zone changes from a few years ago , things are drastically different. It is more important to have 5 really good scorers on the floor at the same time. And dribble penetration has become much more important."

    I have noticed that the teams that are tough on defense at the perimeter (like Detroit), with the exception of the Spurs, have had their share of problems at the beginning, I think they are now adapting.

    So, UB, my main question for you is what does this "do" with your standpoint concerning the defense? Would it mean that you are be sliding from a very defensive concept to a little more offensive oriented concept (in which defense is still very important, but there is more emphasis on the offensive qualities of the players/system concerned)?

    And what does this mean for this years play-offs, any ideas? Good thread!

    Regards,

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Mourning: Maybe, but I have not decided that yet, I am re-thinking things. I likely won't change my overall belief in the importance of defense until I see how the playoffs go. We'll see. It actaully might make great defenders even more important. I jut don't know yet

  10. #10
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    I won't have time to fully read this thread or answer these questions until later, but I wanted to post a related question/ comment (I apologize if this has been covered and I missed it.)

    The thing I kept thinking about, watching Phoenix and to a lesser extent, Dallas, was how much thier game plan was similar to "Showtime."

    Let's not forget that the Lakers couldn't run down your throats if they didn't (1) force you to miss a shot, and (2) rebound the ball. Without defense and rebounding, there is not much of an opportunity to fastbreak. Phoenix and Dallas just manhandled us, defensively and on the glass. Yet many of you, because Phoenix and Dallas play at a faster pace and put up a gazillion points, miss the fact that they are good defensive teams.

    UncleBuck, in my opinion, has an unnecessarily narrow definition of "great defense" and I think sometimes that some of you confuse Rick's slow, plodding pace of the game (and its corresponding low scores) with great defense.

    The Celtics couldn't always slow the game down to a half-court game; the Lakers won more championships with Showtime.

    Agree? / Disagree?
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    1-3 have been very well covered and I pretty much agree with what's been said above.

    With regards to 1), with Rasheed it wasn't a huge problem but there have been cases such as Rodman where it has been - his flamboyant 90's play between the Pistons title and Jordan's ability to rein him in was a problem.

    Sheed's big problem was his letting refs take him out of the game in Portland to where he took himself out of post to become a perimeter player - we're talking a guy who could be a 25-12 guy every year if he'd play the game from 15 feet in, not 15 feet out. But he let his brain get so fried by contact by defenders in the post that he became useless there. It wasn't his antics though.

    4. Main flaw is not enough people willing to step up. Only JO and Tinsley and only JO is really suited toward it. I've thought that movement without the ball has been woefully lacking. Lots of ball-gawking. But you also need another offensive threat.

    5. The defensive rotations absolutely suck. Last year's team knew how to rotate out to shooters, pick up screeners, etc. Nobody got open looks. This year's team looks lost - leaving shooters open without a man within 5 feet of them, getting caught on screens - they just look totally lost, which is one thing I would never have expected from a Carlisle team. I'd love to be courtside to see if anybody's telling a teammate anything when a screen's set.

    6. Stability as is is horrible - you aren't playing well. Sometimes you'd say that players sticking together would improve their commuinication and know how to play off each other's strengths and cover their weaknesses but as the current group plays together more they seem to be getting worse.

    7. Reggie mostly. No reason any coach would ever tell a shooter to pass up an open shot. The coaches will obviously say that JO's the #1 option and everything else works off him but open shooters need to shoot and I can't imagine any coach on the planet telling one to do otherwise. Obviously there aren't as many plays run for him as there were 6-8 years ago but he's still passing up open looks.

    8. One without the other's useless but if players don't move without the ball, ball movement never happens. So player movement is more important in that sense. Sort of like asking what's more important in your house - the foundation or the roof. Both are equally important but you have no chance to ever put the roof on without the foundation.

    9. When Michael Jordan switched from being a slasher/scorer and developed his unstoppable post moves - instantly transforming the Bulls from just another good team to perennial title winners.

    10. Walsh. I'm sure Bird has a lot of input but I'm also sure that DW has, at the very least, veto power over any move.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  12. #12

    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Addressing question #1.

    I agree with UB I don't think it was much of a risk because they traded garbage and stole Rasheed. Worse case scenario Sheed would have been a distraction and they let him walk and save 17 million of cap space because he was in the final year of his deal. Also it didn't hurt he was playing for a new contract he knew he couldn't act like a fool because it would cost him millions of dollars.

    To me the only way that deal would have been a risk would have been if Dumars would have had to give up one of his "core" players to obtain Rasheed like Rip or Billups but to add one of the most talented big men in the game for mediocre reserves was a no brainer IMO. Also Dumars knew that LB would be able to control Rasheed; Mo Cheeks is a nice guy but he hasn't been able to crack the whip with any of the players in Portland also Detroit had a roster of hard working veterans that were able to put peer pressure on Rasheed to conform.

    As far as question #9 and the inside/out style of play...

    The 76ers main play was to isolate Moses and Toney on one side of the court by spreading the court it made it very difficult for teams to double from the weak side because of the illegal defense rules so you had to pick your poison double Moses and leave Toney open or play Malone straight up. Occasionally on ESPN they show the 83 finals and Billy Cunningham is on tape screaming during the game to the officials about the Lakers playing an illegal defense and sure enough they got called for about 4 of them one game trying to get over to double the post before the entry pass so he was a master at isolation and spacing.

    In today's game with the elimination of the illegal defense rule it is much easier to "hide" weak defensive players because you can prevent post entry passes by clogging the lane. Iverson was a huge weakness for the 76ers against the Pacers in the playoffs when Mark Jackson would post him up at will and force the 76ers to double leaving Jalen,Reggie,Mullin,Perkins,Smits etc,, wide open for easy jumpers. You guys killed us 2 straight post seasons mainly using Jackson in the post exploiting Iverson's lack of height.

    Also the Celts played inside out with McHale who was one of the best post players ever to play the game. And even though the showtime Lakers are thought of as a run and gun fastbreak team their bread and butter play was to play inside out with Kareem. Kareem would almost get a touch in the post every time in their halfcourt sets. Any time a team would prevent the Lakers fastbreak and in crunch time late in games they would isolate Kareem and Magic and play inside out very similar to what the 76ers did with Moses/Toney.

  13. #13
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    U.B. typed: It is more important to have 5 really good scorers on the floor at the same time.

    Peck asks how do you coralate that with your thoughts that "Stability is important right now until Jax comes back and perhaps Bender comes back."

    You don't consider two of the five good scorers do you? (Curry, Foster)

    If you don't then how can you be ok with keeping them in the starting lineup when you said you need 5 good scorers?

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    U.B. typed: It is more important to have 5 really good scorers on the floor at the same time.

    Peck asks how do you coralate that with your thoughts that "Stability is important right now until Jax comes back and perhaps Bender comes back."

    You don't consider two of the five good scorers do you? (Curry, Foster)

    If you don't then how can you be ok with keeping them in the starting lineup when you said you need 5 good scorers?


    I actually said it is MORE imprtant to have 5 god scoerers ibn the floor atthe ame time. Meaning it is more important now than it was before the zone and other rule changes.

    The current Pacers team is built to have a scorer at the small forward and when they don't they suffer. (But JJ is not the answer, Jax will help)

    See I break it down between primary and secondary scorers. J.O, Artest, Jackson, Fred sometimes are primary scorers and now Tinsley is also. Meaning they just need to the ball to score.

    Secondary scorers need help from teammates. I put Brad Miller in this classification. He is great playing of his teammates. I also put Cro in this category. But I also put Foster in here. No, I am not suggesting Jeff and Cro are equals, Jeff needs more help a better set up.

    Right now besides J.O. there is not much else driving the offense.

    If a team has all secondary scorers, they will be horrible, but if a team has all primary scorers that won't work either.

    So in other words Jeff is still effective with the right teammates around him.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    So in other words Jeff is still effective with the right teammates around him.

    He couldn't have gone 0-8 vs. Phoenix from any closer the the basket than he was. He doesn't need 'the right teammates around him' to be effective offensively, he needs a rim that is bigger in diameter. Much bigger.
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    actually Ben Wallace trains with a much larger ball, it works for him why not for Jeff???
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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    I'm curious if you would put Reggie down as a primary scorer or not?

    Some time we will have to talk about Reggie & you will have to explain your loyalty to him in the starting unit to me. You seem awfully forgiving of any deficiancy's he has yet you always give the standard "I have no problem with Reggie starting" phrase.

    Your theory on the entire Al at sf & Ron at sg thing is where I would begin to question, because that is the lineup from last season when Reggie went to the bench.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    What? Al and Fred would check in at the same time, and Reggie and Foster would sit down together. Ron probably spent less than 20 minutes all season at SG last year, and Al got almost all of his minutes at PF.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers of the 80's were also very balanced offensively, they didn't stand around and watch the post players hold the ball.... and all these teams averaged around 110 pts per game.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by waxman
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    Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers of the 80's were also very balanced offensively, they didn't stand around and watch the post players hold the ball.... and all these teams averaged around 110 pts per game.
    Just about every team in the 80's averaged 110ppg......

    The lowest scoring team in the NBA in 1983 averaged 101ppg.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    What? Fred did not come in at the same time as Al did. Ron spent a lot of time last season at the S.G. spot. I'm not saying he'd spend half the time at S.F. but Al played a lot of min. there especially early in the season.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by waxman
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    Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers of the 80's were also very balanced offensively, they didn't stand around and watch the post players hold the ball.... and all these teams averaged around 110 pts per game.
    When the ball went into Kareem, McHale or Moses, the other players kept moving. It used to be that once you passed the ball into the post, you ran and set a screen, usually for the wing player on the same side of the court, while the post player on the opposite side flashed to the high post and the wing player on the opposite side made a backdoor cut. Five gives moving at once, whether that ball was in-motion or not.

    They still fed the post, that wasn't an excuse for the other players to just 'spot up along the three point line.' But now everybody thinks that's how you run an offense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    In their defense, Jay, in the 80's you were allowed to move freely in halfcourt sets. Nowadays you get bumped off your routes so often it throws the timing off. Spacing is more important.

    Modern defense has a ton to do with it.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    well, to be fair, you were the most predictable offense in the NBA LAST year, too.....and you won 61 games.

    The differense is last year you had 3 big guns while this year you have one big gun and 5 or 6 little ones.....

    Also I believe the rule changes are starting to hit Indiana defensively. Even WITH Ron Artest, Indiana wasnt shutting down teams like they did last year. It got covered up by the fact all their shooters were red-hot, but now with some of those guys coming back to earth, its beginning to become more visible.

    Make no mistake though, you were an offensive basketball team from tipoff of game 1.

    Freddie Jones is by FAR your best perimeter ballhawk, but he's undersized in the post, and he just hasnt been the same since reggie came back. IF there's any connection there, I dont know.

    But at least Freddie doesnt let people blow by him.

    If it wasn't for this guy's team's and fellow fans we would be fine and would be one of the top defensive teams with Stephen and Ron while improving our offense with a better Ron and Stephen....we just need to get the pieces back and we will be fine.

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    Default Re: A whole lotta issues to cover in this post with lots of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    What? Fred did not come in at the same time as Al did. Ron spent a lot of time last season at the S.G. spot. I'm not saying he'd spend half the time at S.F. but Al played a lot of min. there especially early in the season.

    Well, unless I can restore my five-man plus/minus database, we'll just have to agree that we remember it differently.

    But Reggie averaged 28.2 mpg over 80 games, and Freddie averaged 18.6 mpg over 81 games. So that's 46.8 of the 48 SG minutes. I guess I should've said that Ron played less than 100 minutes of SG last season, although I recall that AJ took some of the remaining SG minutes.

    Now that I think about it, Al did get about 4-5 minutes at SF per half.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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