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Thread: The Dallas game

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default The Dallas game

    First something positive.

    David Harrison is bigger than Eric Dampier. I was wondering how big David would be vs. some of the bigger players in the N.B.A. & he is both taller & looks thicker.

    That's it. That's about the most positive I can be about this.

    I'm not going to comment on the game cause I see where you guys have, all I want to do is ask some questions.

    1. Why is our defense so bad if Curry & Foster both start & are considered Defensive specialist?

    2. Why is our rebounding so bad if both O'Neal & Foster avg. almost double figures?

    3. This is a question but, IMO, helps answer the above two. Does anybody now think that it would have been so bad to tell Reggie your going to the bench, keep Al at the S.F. & move Ron to S.G. this season? Because unless you are going to admit that Curry & Foster are the problem, the words Reggie Miller have to come out of your mouth in the above questions. Not all on Reggie but he certainly has to take a great deal of the blame.

    4. Why did Jeff Foster play so little in the second half?

    I have more but that should get enough going right there.

  2. #2
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    I aggree Reggie didn't make much of an offensive impact (again) and is a risk on defense, correction with this line up a big risk on defense. His minutes should go down if he keeps playing like this. Jeff I don't want to remove from the starting line up. He does bring rebounding better than anyone else on our roster rightnow. I think Harrison had good stats but don't know how he played, seems foul trouble was yet again a serious issue, which is a shame seeying hee scored 11 in a short time and with a FG%.

    Curry, ughh, sorry but when SJax comes back I want to see his minutes reduced to 10 minutes max. For a defensive specialist he hasn't done well the last 2 games in general and last night in particular. Wrightnow we will have to make ends meet with him though, because there aren't many options at SF.

    Regards,

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    I am happy nobody seems to be missing Ron though, because as some have stated he doesn't have much influence on the game after all

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  4. #4
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Peck your #4 is the answer to #1

    We actually won the 3d quarter, by 3 but we won, this is the +/_ for that Q:

    JO/MC/JF/RM/JT -4
    AC/JO/JF/RM/JT +1
    AC/JO/JF/FJ/JT -3
    AJ/AC/JO/FJ/JT +6
    DH/AJ/AC/FJ/JT +3

    per player:

    JO -0
    MC -4
    RM -3
    JF -7
    JT +1
    AC +7
    FJ +5
    AJ +2
    DH +2

    the whole game +/_ will be on pacers.com soon, to much work

    Though I like Curry as a defensive player, I am not qon over by the fact that he's starting, we obviously lack something on defense, this was the second game in a row that we were basically killed in the first Q; at SanAn our "adepting" helped, here we were helpless, hopeless and hapless.

    In the 3d Q we did a lot better, how can that be with the same personelle, different plan?
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    1. Why is our defense so bad if Curry & Foster both start & are considered Defensive specialist?

    2. Why is our rebounding so bad if both O'Neal & Foster avg. almost double figures?

    3. This is a question but, IMO, helps answer the above two. Does anybody now think that it would have been so bad to tell Reggie your going to the bench, keep Al at the S.F. & move Ron to S.G. this season? Because unless you are going to admit that Curry & Foster are the problem, the words Reggie Miller have to come out of your mouth in the above questions. Not all on Reggie but he certainly has to take a great deal of the blame.

    4. Why did Jeff Foster play so little in the second half?
    Am I allowed to use the name Artest in my answers ?

    I only have a few minutes, so I need to make this short

    1) Foster and Curry are defensive specialist, but last night Finley got off early and if you know anything about the Mavs you know he is a streak shooter and when he scores well the Mavs almost always win easily. Usually Artest guards Finley and just shuts him off, but Finely has had huge games on Reggie for years.

    2) Rebounding is so bad because our perimeter defense is so bad, and that means the Pacers bigs have to come over and help, and that leaves the board wide open. Why is our perimeter defense so bad. Rather obvious isn't it. Oh one other thing the Pacers aren't get any rebs form the 1,2,3 positions. And I have to say that even when Artest did not get a lot of rebounds, he made the pacers a good rebounding team just by his presense.

    3) No Al at the 3 and Ron at the 2 was not going to work. Al just was not good with J.O and Jeff on the floor.

    4) I don't have an answer except when you're down by 25 points you need some threes and scoring.


    Let me throw this out as a real possibility, maybe, just maybe Artest is that important to the Pacers team. Artest changes the game, changes the Pacers team in ways even I did not fully realize.

  6. #6
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Peck, IMO, the answer to question #2 and #4 is that David Harrison is a necessity against a big, strong, powerful team like Dallas.

    Our defense is bad because Curry was a defensive specialist five or six years ago, and he's living off his old reputation, not his current, or even recent, production. And Foster isn't all that much of a defensive player. Sure he's quick enough to front the other team's post players, but he's just too small to get the job done. Coaching 101 says that you only front the post when your defenders aren't big/ strong enough AND you've got a shotblocker hanging back, playing goalie. Its a 'sign' of weakness because if the entry pass is made YOU MUST DOUBLE-TEAM. Foster's got one thing he brings to the table and it ain't defense - its offensive rebounding.

    Dampier just controlled the game; it doesn't matter which Maverick actually got the rebounds, it was because of Dampier. Harrison helped neutralize that in the second half, but it was too late.

    As I said last night, the Curry problem *should* go away when SJax returns (actually, it should go away now, start Fred at SG and Reggie at SF), the Foster problem is easy to solve, IMO, by just creating more JO/Harrison minutes. As for the Reggie problem, well you've got to blame two people for that (1) Management for not having a Plan B, and (2) Artest for putting himself in a position where he could be suspended for any amount of games.

    Even with picking up SJax, we weren't very deep at SF/SG to begin with. Losing a forty-mpg guy isn't the easiest thing in the world to overcome. The problem isn't necessarily that Ron was valuable because he was soooooo good (even though he was at times), its that there's no depth there. Out of the remaining players (SJax, Reggie, Fred, JJ, Curry, Bender - if you're foolish enough to call him a SF), there is still only one legit NBA-caliber starter for two positions. That's a lot of depth but not much quality.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  7. #7

    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Let me throw this out as a real possibility, maybe, just maybe Artest is that important to the Pacers team. Artest changes the game, changes the Pacers team in ways even I did not fully realize.

    Besides Shaq, Artest is the most dominant player in the whole league(Duncan is as dominant as Artest but Artest is more intimidating so he gets the nod). You cannot take a player like that away from our team and expect them to compete with the Spurs and the Heat. This season is far from over but I just don't see us competing for the ultimate prize.

  8. #8
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    LMAO

    Will you guys stop overrating Artest? He's a nice player... NOT top 10 yet, and not even the best player on this team.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory
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    Besides Shaq, Artest is the most dominant player in the whole league(Duncan is as dominant as Artest but Artest is more intimidating so he gets the nod). You cannot take a player like that away from our team and expect them to compete with the Spurs and the Heat. This season is far from over but I just don't see us competing for the ultimate prize.
    Artest>Duncan?


  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Before we grant Artest sainthood, as IMHO we do clearly miss him... or at least miss a quality SF, we need to think about a couple of things. In all of last summer's discussion about trading Artest, and thus losing him, we always got SOMETHING in return. But the reality is that we ended up losing him (to suspension) and got nothing in return. Unless you want to say Curry is the type of replacement we'd have gotten this summer in trade.

    Reggie is the 600lb gorilla in the living room. His legacy starts are forcing some issues in the rotation I believe.

    -Bball

  11. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Right now it is like we lost Al and Ron for nothing. That is a huge loss. I know a lot of you didn't like Al but he was the 3rd best player on a 61 win team.

  12. #12
    canyoufeelit
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    Okay that's it, here's a list of players that are better than Ron Artest:

    1) KG
    2) Duncan
    3) Shaq
    4) Kobe
    5) McGrady
    6) Ray Allen
    7) Elton Brand
    8) Baron Davis
    9) Steve Francis
    10) Pau Gasol
    11) Allen Iverson
    12) LeBron James
    13) Richard Jefferson
    14) Jason Kidd
    15) Rashard Lewis
    16) Steve Nash
    17) Dirk
    18) Jermaine O'Neal
    19) Lamar Odom
    20) Paul Pierce
    21) Amare Stoudemire
    22) Dwyane Wade

    Can you dispute any of these? Of course you can. But not ALL. Let's not get it twisted: Ron is NOT an elite player in the NBA, he is a good complimentary player. But top 15? Naaaah. And I'm sure I forgot some players too

  13. #13
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Right now it is like we lost Al and Ron for nothing. That is a huge loss. I know a lot of you didn't like Al but he was the 3rd best player on a 61 win team.
    Do you think Al would have gone into the stands? Tough question.

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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Okay that's it, here's a list of players that are better than Ron Artest:

    1) KG
    2) Duncan
    3) Shaq
    4) Kobe
    5) McGrady
    6) Ray Allen
    7) Elton Brand
    8) Baron Davis
    9) Steve Francis
    10) Pau Gasol
    11) Allen Iverson
    12) LeBron James
    13) Richard Jefferson
    14) Jason Kidd
    15) Rashard Lewis
    16) Steve Nash
    17) Dirk
    18) Jermaine O'Neal
    19) Lamar Odom
    20) Paul Pierce
    21) Amare Stoudemire
    22) Dwyane Wade

    Can you dispute any of these? Of course you can. But not ALL. Let's not get it twisted: Ron is NOT an elite player in the NBA, he is a good complimentary player. But top 15? Naaaah.
    Allow me to make the cuts: (Those NOT in bold are cut)

    1) KG
    2) Duncan
    3) Shaq
    4) Kobe

    5) McGrady
    6) Ray Allen

    7) Elton Brand
    8) Baron Davis
    9) Steve Francis
    10) Pau Gasol
    11) Allen Iverson
    12) LeBron James

    13) Richard Jefferson
    14) Jason Kidd
    15) Rashard Lewis
    16) Steve Nash
    17) Dirk
    18) Jermaine O'Neal

    19) Lamar Odom
    20) Paul Pierce
    21) Amare Stoudemire
    22) Dwyane Wade

    That's 13. He's not top 10 or top 5. Top 15 is still damn good though.

  15. #15
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    I can debate these too I'm not gonna argue Stevie, Odom, or Pau, but...

    Elton Brand gives you 20 and 10 and is a big man, big imppact on the game

    Richard Jefferson is scoring 22 per game, is a pretty good defender himself, and one of the fastest wing players in the league

    Rashard Lewis is a great complimentary player and a matchup night mare... 18 ppg from a 6'10" SF who shoots 3 pointers at a 41% clip? Wow.

    Steve Nash is the engine that's driving the league's best team

    Paul Pierce is still the explosive scorer and post up player he was 3 years ago, don't tell me you've forgotten that playoff series where he and Toine lit up Artest

    Amare is dunking on everybody to a tune of 26 points per game and shooting .584 (!) from the field. How is that not a better talent than Ron Artest?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    I think I'd at least argue that Pierce, Odom, RJ and Artest should all be menioned "in the same breath" - its hard for me to decide which of those SFs is best.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Brand I gave serious consideration, and wouldn't lose sleep adding him to my list.

    Jefferson is not as good as Ron. Watch them play each other and you'll see what I mean. Ron owns him. Lewis is stepping up, but he's not nearly established enough for me to put him with this list of players. Nash has poor D. Pierce is very good, but I think he's a notch below Artest now. Only 1 notch, but a notch nonetheless.

    Amare, I just haven't seen him much this season. For all I know he deserves to be on the list.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Do you think Al would have gone into the stands? Tough question.
    Yes... I don't there are many players who wouldn't have went after someone throwing a cup of liquid on them in similar circumstances.

    -Bball

  19. #19
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I think I'd at least argue that Pierce, Odom, RJ and Artest should all be menioned "in the same breath" - its hard for me to decide which of those SFs is best.
    Also keep in mind that while you may want to argue that Artest is the DPOY, all of those guys are very good defenders as well and that Odom and Pierce have almost-singlehandedly led teams into the playoffs with not much else help (rookie Wade and Ricky Davis... yeah)

  20. #20
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    I can debate these too I'm not gonna argue Stevie, Odom, or Pau, but...

    Elton Brand gives you 20 and 10 and is a big man, big imppact on the game

    Richard Jefferson is scoring 22 per game, is a pretty good defender himself, and one of the fastest wing players in the league

    Rashard Lewis is a great complimentary player and a matchup night mare... 18 ppg from a 6'10" SF who shoots 3 pointers at a 41% clip? Wow.

    Steve Nash is the engine that's driving the league's best team

    Paul Pierce is still the explosive scorer and post up player he was 3 years ago, don't tell me you've forgotten that playoff series where he and Toine lit up Artest

    Amare is dunking on everybody to a tune of 26 points per game and shooting .584 (!) from the field. How is that not a better talent than Ron Artest?
    Ok, so Jefferson is ONLY getting 22ppg? Considering he was the Nets 1st, 2nd and 3rd scoring option I don't find that THAT impressive. Ron had 24+ points in the few games he played this year against a NICE FG% not too mention the defence he brings. Jefferson would DREAM he is in Artests league (with regards to his play oncourt).

    Hope YOU haven't forgotten how the last play-offs went for Pierce and who was defending him than and who got the better end? Also Pierce is a great player, but also a spoiled one. If he doesn't get his way look at his demeanour vs his coach.

    Lewis is nice and is having a great year, he is a great player and indeed a nightmare matchup for most teams. I don't know much about his defense though and Ron still scores more (and I dare say off-hand defends better).

    Steve Nash is one of the absolute top PGs, however I hope he can hold on to the 2nd part of the season. He has made a name for not doing so well in that part of the year. GREAT player and leader though.

    I don't want to dispute Brand, I am just happy the Bulls traded him away to the Clippers, the Bulls could have been scary now with him. Great player.

    Amare is hard to dispute as well, though he might be a bit one dimensional in the way he scores, but who cares? It works and he is only 22, right?

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  21. #21
    canyoufeelit
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    Post Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Yes... I don't there are many players who wouldn't have went after someone throwing a cup of liquid on them in similar circumstances.

    -Bball
    Al was the guy who restrained Ron in many altercations over the years... think the Pat Riley one. I think Al Harrington would have shown more self-control than Stephen Jackson, would NOT have escalated the situation on the court like Jax did, and would have pulled Artest out of the stands and not been the one who needed to be pulled out, like Stephen was

  22. #22
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Also keep in mind that while you may want to argue that Artest is the DPOY, all of those guys are very good defenders as well and that Odom and Pierce have almost-singlehandedly led teams into the playoffs with not much else help (rookie Wade and Ricky Davis... yeah)
    I think you are seriously undervaluing last years Miami team and I think you are over valuing the eastern conference last 2 play-off spots.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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  23. #23
    canyoufeelit
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    I think you are seriously undervaluing last years Miami team and I think you are over valuing the eastern conference last 2 play-off spots.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    Wade is definitely good, the rest of the team is so-so and looks very good now because of a certain 7'1 330 pound center.

    Yes... the Celtics kind of sleepwalked into the playoffs, but the bottom line is they got there even being the mess that they were last year

  24. #24
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    I think most of us would actually agree that he's somewhere between #12 and about #18 or so.

    Its not like *I've* ever said he isn't a top-fifteen or top-twenty player. When I say the negatives outweigh the positives, I'm fully aware of the positives, I just think the negatives are in a class all by them selves.


    Not to get too far off-topic, because Peck asked some important questions up at the top, but there's a two-page spread in the Tribune today about whether the marriage between the Cubs and Sammy Sosa can be saved. I was reading the articles and opinions in the debate about him, and thinking, "If Pacers fans read this and substituted 'Ron Artest' for 'Sammy Sosa', it could be a very enlightening discussion.

    How good must a player be so that the off-court issues don't matter?

    Hypothetically, if Ron were the league's MVP, and yet his off-court stuff was still undermining the team's effort to win a championship, what do you do? One difference here is that Ron is absolutely, positively NOT the Pacers' 'franchise player'. Jermaine O'Neal is.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dallas game

    Quote Originally Posted by canyoufeelit
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    Al was the guy who restrained Ron in many altercations over the years... think the Pat Riley one. I think Al Harrington would have shown more self-control than Stephen Jackson, would NOT have escalated the situation on the court like Jax did, and would have pulled Artest out of the stands and not been the one who needed to be pulled out, like Stephen was
    Don't move the target on me...
    I agree that if Artest got hit it is likely Harrington would've been trying to restrain Ron. I answered to the premise if Harrington was hit by a drink from fans in a similar circumstance that IMO he would've went after the thrower. I have no way of knowing... it is just a feeling. OTOH, at this point in time if it was to happen I think relatively few (if any) would go after the thrower (because a precedent has been set and the punishment (and timeframe) will deter that happening for most).

    But on 11/19/04 or before I think most NBA players would've went after the thrower in a similar situation. BUT, that said, certain players have more to lose than others and certain players have used up more of their 'benefit of the doubt' cards with the league.

    ...But we're getting off topic and I'm just speculating.

    -Bball

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