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Thread: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    "Pistons coaches blamed in brawl

    In police report, the Pacers' Carlisle and his players also criticize lax security

    By David Shepardson / The Detroit News


    The investigation, page by page

    Police compiled an 871-page report in investigating the brawl at The Palace on Nov. 19 between the Pistons, the Pacers, and several fans. The Detroit News has obtained the full report, which had not previously been released to the public. It reveals previously unreported details of the incident that commanded the attention of sports fans nationwide. Here are some excerpts:


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    AUBURN HILLS -- Indiana Pacers head coach Rick Carlisle blamed Detroit Pistons coaches and lax security for the Nov. 19 brawl at the Palace, according to an 871-page police report of the incident obtained by The Detroit News.


    Carlisle
    "I think Detroit is very understaffed security wise, having been there for two years," Carlisle said in a Nov. 20 statement to an NBA security official. "This whole thing could have been prevented but the Detroit coaching staff did not get involved. They did not properly remove (Pistons forward) Ben (Wallace) from the floor. Ben threw his towel and that was the cue to start throwing things at Ron (Artest)."

    Although Carlisle has publicly avoided criticizing the Pistons organization, for which he was head coach from 2001-03, his comments were among more than 60 statements by players, team officials and announcers included in the Auburn Hills police report. The report -- which has not been released publicly by police -- provides insight into the chaos surrounding one of the ugliest brawls in sports history.

    Even leaving The Palace of Auburn Hills was a test for the Pacers, according to team trainer David Craig.

    "The police escort we received in Detroit was the worst I have ever seen," Craig told NBA security. "Cars were cutting in between us, and anyone could have taken a potshot at us."

    David Harrison, a Pacers player, told NBA security: "On the bus out of there, they told us to keep our heads down."

    The NBA has not notified the Pistons of Carlisle's comments or concerns, said team spokesman Matt Dobek. He said that Carlisle never complained about security when he was the Pistons head coach.

    "He never made that statement when he was here," said Dobek, who added that it was unfair to judge the team on a single incident.

    Dobek was concerned on the night of the brawl, however.

    "I was afraid someone might be killed," he told the NBA the next day. Dobek said Friday that he no longer feels that the situation was such a threat.

    The Palace now has added more uniformed police near team benches.

    Pacers spokesman David Benner could not be reached for comment Friday. John Daniels, the NBA's director of facilities security, who interviewed Carlisle and Craig among other personnel, declined to comment Friday.

    Beyond security concerns, the report reveals details of the investigation that led to criminal charges against five Pacers and seven fans in the nationally televised melee.

    Artest, Stephen Jackson, Harrison and Anthony Johnson were each charged with one count of assault and battery. Jermaine O'Neal, a three-time NBA All-Star, was charged with two counts of assault and battery. They are to appear at a Jan. 25 hearing in Rochester Hills.

    Artest also was banned for the season, Jackson for 30 games and O'Neal for 25, which was later reduced to

    15. Wallace got a 6-game suspension. Pacer Anthony Johnson sat five games and Pacer Reggie Miller and Pistons Chauncey Billups, Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman were suspended for one game each.

    Five fans were charged by the prosecutor with misdemeanor assault and battery, including Bryant Jackson, who was charged with felony assault for throwing a chair during the game.


    The police report discloses:


    Ben Wallace helped police identify his brother as one of the fans involvedin the incident. "(Pistons President Joe ) Dumars then stated that Mr. Wallace wanted to do the right thing and identify the person as his brother David Wallace," Detective Brian Martin wrote. David Wallace was among those charged.

    Prosecutors used a Nov. 30 investigative subpoena to obtain from the NBA the statements from coaches, players and personnel. Many declined to be interviewed by police. The statements obtained by The News haven't been turned over to the Pistons, Dobek said.

    One fan who filed a federal suit against the Pacers and two players for assault had a history of alleged incidents at the Palace. He threatened to pour a drink on Houston Rockets star Yao Ming at a game earlier in November. That fan, Charlie Haddad, was banned Dec. 2 from the Palace. He was confronted at half-time during the Nov. 19 game with the Pacers by Palace security officials.

    Police got hundreds of tips that didn't pan out, including a woman who said the chair-thrower was a male exotic dancer by the stage name "Low Key" or "Kool Kat Daddy" in Detroit. Another tip came from a pastor who reported one of his parishioners could identify the cup-thrower.

    Coaches turned to referees for help during the brawl, but got none. Game official Tommy Nunez was struck with a pop bottle that left a welt on his head.. He and the other two referees are listed as potential prosecution witnesses.

    The melee began in the closing seconds of a lopsided Pacers victory. Following a hard foul by Artest, Ben Wallace pushed Artest. Although Wallace was not charged, Auburn Hills Police Officer Greg Super described it in his initial report from the Palace as "an assault and battery retaliation by Mr. B Wallace."

    Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca said Saturday that Wallace's conduct did not amount to a criminal act. "I'm not going to start criminalizing fouls in a basketball game," Gorcyca. "In theory, we could have charged both Artest and Wallace with assault for hitting each other, but that's something that the NBA can handle."

    While reclined on the scorer's table, Artest used a vulgar phrase in addressing Wallace, Dobek told NBA security. Wallace threw an item at Artest.

    After a fan -- later identified by police as John Green, 39, of Bloomfield Hills -- threw a cup that hit Artest, the player charged into the stands and grabbed another fan. Other players charged into the stands and numerous fights ensued.

    Details of individual confrontations, impossible to hear on video, are detailed in the police report.

    "I grabbed (Indiana Pacers player Reggie) Miller by his shirt initially trying to direct him out of the court area, to which he swatted my hand away and told me I was not to grab him," Super wrote.

    Miller refused to talk to NBA security without a lawyerpresent, but said he'd like to cooperate, according to the NBA report. Gorcyca said he reviewed the incident, but declined to bring a charge -- a decision Auburn Hills polic agreed with, he said.

    Indiana Pacers player Austin Croshere reported that "I just missed getting hit with the chair by five feet."

    Some players said little or denied hitting anyone -- even if the videotapes showed otherwise.

    Fred Jones, a Pacers player, said the players "were fighting for our life because you don't know what a fan has."

    "I didn't feel myself get hit. But after looking at the video and feeling the after-effects, I did get hit," Green told NBA security on Nov. 20.

    Pacer Scott Pollard expressed his displeasure with the security efforts during the melee. "I yelled at security to get the (expletive) fans off the court," Pollard told NBA security.

    Former Piston Rick Mahorn said he went into the crowd to protect a fan who was stepped on.

    "One woman, Nancy, who I know had just had an operation," Mahorn said. "That's why I went there. It was scary."

    Pistons coach Larry Brown placed blame on the Pacers' conduct, especially Stephen Jackson for "taunting" the Pistons bench and Artest for committing an "excessive" foul.

    "Jackson was mouthing off, screaming and pulling up his shirt," Brown told NBA security.

    Gorcyca called Pacers' statements to NBA security "self serving." He said the Pacers refused to cooperate during the inviestigation. "The NBA and the Pistons were extremely cooperative," Gorcyca said.

    Brown unsuccessfully tried to the get the referees involved after players went into the stands.

    "I yelled at (referee) Ron Garretson to do something and Garretson said it was not his job," Brown said.

    Carlisle noted the officials' reactions. "I think the referees just simply left. They called the game and simply left," he said.

    Referee Ron Garretson, of Gilbert, Ariz., told Auburn Hills police in a signed statement: "Mayhem was ensuing. There was another fight in front of the Indiana bench. I walked over to the scorer's table and informed the scorer's table that the game was over I got my partners and we headed to our locker room."

    In the locker room after the brawl, Pacers assistant trainer Josh Corbeil said he "had to (give basic first aid) to nine players and staff as a result of cuts, bruises and swelling."


    'Am I in trouble?'


    After the incident, police assigned several detectives to the case full-time.

    Green called police Nov. 21 after he reported that several people told him he was the cup-thrower. A detective went to Green's house and tape-recorded an interview with him.

    "I grabbed Artest ... Did you see Jackson hit me?" Green said. "Those guys shouldn't have come into the stands like that, especially when they have the wrong guy."

    In the middle of the interview, Green decided he wanted to talk to his lawyer -- who was in Las Vegas. After the detective spoke to the lawyer, he agreed to end the interview.

    "I handed the phone back to Mr. Green and he asked me, 'Am I in trouble?'." the detective wrote.

    Lots of people phoned tips that turned out to be wild goose chases, from a local TV employee to other police agencies.

    A Channel 4 employee phoned to report that the station had received an anonymous tip identifying a Southfield man as the chair thrower. The Michigan State Police's gaming unit recognized a man who looked like the chair thrower at Motor City Casino on Nov 26.

    Motor City security followed the man and took surveillance photos of the man that were turned over to Auburn Hills police.

    A local pastor reported that one of his parishioners, a high-school girl, attended the game and saw who threw the cup. "As a pastor, it would not be good PR if parishioners knew that I reported comments I overheard to the police," the man wrote in an e-mail to Auburn Hills Deputy Chief Jim Mynsberge.

    After getting subpoenas to get videotape from WDIV and WXYZ, police went to DaimlerChrysler's production studios on Nov. 24 to view the footage that was on special format videotapes.

    An Oakland Press reporter and a free-lance photographer for the Associated Press said they each had laptop computers worth more than $1,500 destroyed in the melee.

    Dobek said the only real changes in security have been the additional police at games.

    "We've had one incident in 16 years and the league's never said anything about our security," Dobek said. "Things are basically back to normal."

    You can reach David Shepardson at (313) 222-2028 or dshepardson@detnews.com."



    As a sidenote: nice the Detroitnews makes a directlink to the IndyStar messageboard, so if it wasn't "polluted" by trolls enough it surely will be hell there pretty soon, I guess.

    here's the link to the whole page including complete pages from the report:

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/pistons/...etro-54422.htm

    Regards,

    Mourning
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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    "The NBA has not notified the Pistons of Carlisle's comments or concerns, said team spokesman Matt Dobek. He said that Carlisle never complained about security when he was the Pistons head coach.

    "He never made that statement when he was here," said Dobek, who added that it was unfair to judge the team on a single incident."

    Suuuuuuuure, because the Palace of Auburn Hills is generally known as a "friendly" arena where there never ever are problems with lets say forinstance Hecklers???

    Regards,

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    some "interesting cutouts":

    One fan who filed a federal suit against the Pacers and two players for assault had a history of alleged incidents at the Palace. He threatened to pour a drink on Houston Rockets star Yao Ming at a game earlier in November. That fan, Charlie Haddad, was banned Dec. 2 from the Palace. He was confronted at half-time during the Nov. 19 game with the Pacers by Palace security officials.
    but he was still there at the end of the game.........

    While reclined on the scorer's table, Artest used a vulgar phrase in addressing Wallace, Dobek told NBA security. Wallace threw an item at Artest
    So now over the distance they were apart and considering the noise and the fact that none of the pictures show Artest actually doing something like that, we are down to that level, shows something........


    "I grabbed (Indiana Pacers player Reggie) Miller by his shirt initially trying to direct him out of the court area, to which he swatted my hand away and told me I was not to grab him," Super wrote.
    I never knew we had a Miller in uniform that night, can't be Reg, he was wearing a suit.........

    Pistons coach Larry Brown placed blame on the Pacers' conduct, especially Stephen Jackson for "taunting" the Pistons bench and Artest for committing an "excessive" foul.

    "Jackson was mouthing off, screaming and pulling up his shirt," Brown told NBA security.
    Larry is really getting old, he now has amnesia as well, he must have missed a few things that happened, perhaps his eyesight is deminishing as well, no wonder they are doing so well......

    Brown unsuccessfully tried to the get the referees involved after players went into the stands.

    "I yelled at (referee) Ron Garretson to do something and Garretson said it was not his job," Brown said.

    Carlisle noted the officials' reactions. "I think the referees just simply left. They called the game and simply left," he said.

    Referee Ron Garretson, of Gilbert, Ariz., told Auburn Hills police in a signed statement: "Mayhem was ensuing. There was another fight in front of the Indiana bench. I walked over to the scorer's table and informed the scorer's table that the game was over I got my partners and we headed to our locker room."
    ..........................


    Dobek said the only real changes in security have been the additional police at games.

    "We've had one incident in 16 years and the league's never said anything about our security," Dobek said. "Things are basically back to normal."
    If I was Pacers head honcho I would simply not go and play the next game in Detroit, stating that it is to risky to play there.

    Now the hunt for the full report starts

    If I could only lay my hands on the Arbitrators reports, now that would be a find, shoudl be part of the court-proceedings I think, but not yet published anywhere
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Very interesting read.

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    King Mob
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Indeed.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Lots of new bits. Ron apparently cussed over at Ben from the scorer's table The thing that gave me a flashback was Ron telling, I believe Stacy Paetz?, that he just wanted to scare that fan. That is the same exact phrase he used when he talked about going after the Pacer fan at Conseco. What is going on in his head.

    The article says the Pacers were self-serving and didn't fully cooperate, but the Pistons were great and did. Gee, I wonder why that is? They run out of ink before stating the obvious of 'Pistons had nothing to lose, Pacers did'? That's why one side was a lot more cooperative.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    "AUBURN HILLS -- Indiana Pacers head coach Rick Carlisle blamed Detroit Pistons coaches and lax security for the Nov. 19 brawl at the Palace, according to an 871-page police report of the incident obtained by The Detroit News.


    Carlisle
    "I think Detroit is very understaffed security wise, having been there for two years," Carlisle said in a Nov. 20 statement to an NBA security official. "This whole thing could have been prevented but the Detroit coaching staff did not get involved. They did not properly remove (Pistons forward) Ben (Wallace) from the floor. Ben threw his towel and that was the cue to start throwing things at Ron (Artest)."

    Although Carlisle has publicly avoided criticizing the Pistons organization, for which he was head coach from 2001-03, his comments were among more than 60 statements by players, team officials and announcers included in the Auburn Hills police report"


    "Pistons coach Larry Brown placed blame on the Pacers' conduct, especially Stephen Jackson for "taunting" the Pistons bench and Artest for committing an "excessive" foul.

    "Jackson was mouthing off, screaming and pulling up his shirt," Brown told NBA security."

    Larry is quick to point the blaming finger, but where the -censored- was he after Ben started doing his "show"? Speaking of which why doens't he mention Ben's "hard foul" on Ron the previous Pacers possesion? Why didn't they get Ben the hell of the court? or talk about Colemans and Hunters taunting? Rick was in between the players as sort of a buffer to quiet things down. Larry and his coaches might have gotten a little more active themselves to say the least, certainly considering it's their homefloor!

    Regards,

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Brown's an @$$.

    You all think I don't like Artest.... He only gets about 1% of the venom that Brownie gets.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Hicks, best part is if you read all the statements, I do nay see how the Pistons were more co-operative in those then the Pacers, the Pistons simply state they seen nothing (yes all of them saw nothing)
    Only one guy heard Ron use an expletive, but then again, he is the Pistons Spokesman so if it comes to spin he should know a few tricks, this is probably just one of them, his entire recap is contradictive with the television footage, can you say "lying"?

    I read the pages they posted, wondering why people not simply put the entire enshalada on the net, but who am I, some cuts for your entertainment:


    One of the policemen who lost the plot, he (like his 2 - 3 collegues) was on the concourse watching the tv.



    as the remainder of that report:



    Now Chuck has seen the more interesting things not mentioned anywhere, or the role of Piston security;



    And a telling one, if you read in between the lines even better, I love how he was concerned with the Piston's security......

    The director of Piston Security:



    Now anyone with links to the following documents is requested to either mention or pm me thanks

    a. the full report as mentioned in this thread and article,
    b. the full ruling of the judge in the case of the NBA vs PA
    c. the full ruling of Kaplan (the arbitrator)

    thanks
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Chuck Person doesn't get enough credit for the fact that he seems to be the one guy that Ron will listen to/ respect when he's mad. I love that conversation, "We made eye contact and I motioned him to come to me. I told him we were leaving. He said, "What about my teammates?" I told him I would come out to get them.

    For all the bad things that happened that night... there's something about the image of Chuck and Reggie - each known to lose thier cool a bit in thier youth, but to me those guys are still the two faces of the NBA-era Pacers -covering Ron with thier expensive suit jackets and helping him get out of that arena alive that is very compelling to me.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    yeah you see security! They where beating up Jamaal! unreal..just unreal...I think next time we play Detroit...we Should play a video of that brawl..Imagine how fired up we would be!
    aha

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Quote Originally Posted by JOneal7
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    yeah you see security! They where beating up Jamaal! unreal..just unreal...I think next time we play Detroit...we Should play a video of that brawl..Imagine how fired up we would be!
    aha

    Oh yeh, the NBA would love us for that. In fact they would likely fine the pacers organization.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    ... aswell as get the media "at us" even more than in the end of november.

    THAT is not an option!
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Not to mention the whole thing is not something to be proud of to begin with.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    "I yelled at (referee) Ron Garretson to do something and Garretson said it was not his job," Brown said.

    Carlisle noted the officials' reactions. "I think the referees just simply left. They called the game and simply left," he said.

    Referee Ron Garretson, of Gilbert, Ariz., told Auburn Hills police in a signed statement: "Mayhem was ensuing. There was another fight in front of the Indiana bench. I walked over to the scorer's table and informed the scorer's table that the game was over I got my partners and we headed to our locker room."
    This is almost criminal.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Those refs should be fired, espcially Ron Garretson, he has been around many years, and was the lead official

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Those refs should be fired, espcially Ron Garretson, he has been around many years, and was the lead official
    That would assume the NBA was willing to take responsibility

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Hold on a second. The refs are there to referee a basketball game. Now I admit that leaving wasn't exactly the most altruistic thing to do and the "its not my job" comment isn't the greatest way to look at it. BUT!

    1) What are three old men supposed to do in a riot?

    2) I understand their responsibility is to keep control of the game if possible (which they failed at) but once the riot starts it is NOT their responsibility to stop it. They are not police or security. They have a whistle and a stripped shirt.

    3) Its ridiculous to call leaving the court almost criminal.

    4) If all the fans and players who weren't originally involved in the inccident acted the same way as the refs did, (saying, "This is out of hand, come on lets all leave and get somewhere safe.") the incident is a whole lot smaller.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Once the players were in the stands, from there on I don't blame them one bit. Where they screwed up big time was not breaking up the crowd near the scorer's table, which carried on for a minute before the cup flew. They could have gotten the game back going before anyone gets hit. Instead, they stood their with their hands in their pockets while the benches cleared. That's unforgivable.

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    Yes what Hicks said.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    My question is why were there only two "security" stationed outside the Pacers locker room after the brawl, but "near the Pistons locker room there were three "security", two in the hallway and two police officers". Seems odd that there wasn't more protection given to the players who were taking the abuse from the Detriot fans. No wonder the players felt threatened and were told to keep their heads down on the bus. The "security" was too busy punching Pacers players like Tinsley and gaurding the Pistons. Nice security there at the Palace....punching players as they are trying to get into the locker room.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Try and count the number of police officers in the Palace. (3)
    Read what all security staff and Police is doing (watching the game on tv)

    Read that the refs did NOT signal for security on the court/behind the benches during the altercation, which if I read the affidavits right seems to be "standard" procedure.

    Read that Ron was hit with a headband and a towel by Ben, that he was hit with more the the bottle from the stands.
    Read how Ron never hit anyone before he was back on the court and attacked.

    Read how none of the Piston players saw "anything"

    and then shake your head as much as you want.
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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Once things went to Hell the Refs. should have gotten out of there. However the fact that things went to hell falls squarely on thier shoulders.

    I hate Joey Crawford because I think he is a pompous arrogant ***, however he is a good ref. & if he or Javie had been there this would never ever have occured.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    At the time I laughed, because of how he looked doing it, but the rook ref was the only one that was sperating RA and Ben. He's the only one that I don't really look down upon, because I sat there and watched him get his head smacked with a bottle. Rook doing the best, says a lot about attitudes of the vet. refs in the league.
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    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Detroit News obtains police report - interesting read!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Once things went to Hell the Refs. should have gotten out of there. However the fact that things went to hell falls squarely on thier shoulders.

    I hate Joey Crawford because I think he is a pompous arrogant ***, however he is a good ref. & if he or Javie had been there this would never ever have occured.
    Cyclops (Bavetta) can't even see out of his one eye - I swear I've seen it rolling around on the court before - but he's the perfect ref for a rivalry game like that one anyway, because he's the type of ref that the egomaniac players at least respect.

    In retrospect, I'm still surprised which crew the NBA sent to that game in the first place.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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