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Thread: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

  1. #1676
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It's not eye popping at all when you realize the different sorts of offenses the two teams run. I have had to listen to Nuntius say we don't need a real point guard a hundred times. That George Hill is just fine because of the system we run not needing a more legit point man, then he gets to use that same argument in reverse talking about how nice it is to be utilizing an elite point guard distributing the ball. He doesn't get to have it both ways. Either we run a system that isn't about excellent distribution by a great guard, in which case it's by design that we don't get a ton of assisted buckets so that's a pointless comment, or we need a better point guard than George Hill -- which is a statement Nuntius will never commit to. It's easy to come into conversations and not understand there larger scope and think someone is being rude, but Nuntius makes it a point to go completely out of context to try and find obscure stats that "prove" his point, when the reality is if you start with the position of "the Pacers are great and their players do no wrong and have no weaknesses," you can find evidence of that in some number, somewhere. That isn't how stats are supposed to be used though. You don't start with a conclusion and look for evidence that agrees with you. Not if you are honest, anyway.
    My friend, I still believe that our system doesn't need a real point guard and George Hill is indeed excellent for what we're trying to do, imo.

    Dece, you said something that is absolutely wrong here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Either we run a system that isn't about excellent distribution by a great guard, in which case it's by design that we don't get a ton of assisted buckets so that's a pointless comment
    Who said that our system does not give us a ton of assisted buckets?

    Let's check out the percentage of assisted buckets for the other 4 of our starters:

    David West was assisted in 63.3% of his baskets in the regular season and 66.1% of his baskets during the playoffs. So, David was assisted significantly more than Roy.

    Paul George was assisted in 57.6% of his baskets in the regular season and 48.7% of his baskets during the playoffs. He was assisted more than Roy in the RS but less than him in the playoffs since he shared ball handling duties with George Hill.

    Lance Stephenson was assisted in 58.9% of his baskets in the regular season and 50.7% of his baskets during the playoffs. Lance was assisted more than Roy in the RS and a bit more in the playoffs after Vogel gave him the green light to create for himself and attack after a defensive rebound (we all remember his coast to coast baskets).

    George Hill was assisted in 44.8% of his baskets in the regular season and 48.2% of his baskets during the playoffs. He was the only player that was consistently assisted less than Roy and that makes sense since he is the PG so he's the one that gets to assist others instead of the opposite.

    Let's check our back-ups a bit:

    Ian Mahinmi: 69.8% in the RS, 53.8% in the playoffs (7 assisted out of 13 baskets)

    Tyler Hansbrough: 52.8% in the RS, 46.2% in the playoffs (12 out of 26)

    Orlando Johnson: 61.1% in the RS, 50% in the playoffs (1 out of 2)

    DJ Augustin: 64.1% in the RS, 70.4% in the playoffs

    Sam Young: 63.8% in the RS, 66.7% in the playoffs

    Gerald Green: 63.2% in the RS, 61.9% in the playoffs

    Jeff Pendergraph: 80.3% in the RS, 62.5% in the playoffs

    Our second unit was in contrast with our first unit. Our first unit had players that could create their own shot and thus they didn't rely on being assisted by their teammates. The second unit had only 1 such player (Hansbrough) and thus needed to be assisted in a much higher rate. And they were.

    Dece, I never said that the Pacers can do no wrong and have no weaknesses. We certainly have weaknesses. Every team does. We have weakness in both sides of the floor.

    Defensively, we struggle against big men that can shoot the long range jumper. That's why we lost all of our games against Brooklyn. We cannot defend the Deron Williams - Brook Lopz PnP well. With the addition of KG and PP, I expect the Nets to be even tougher opponents for us (since we didn't beat the Celtics last year either).

    We also struggle against top notch ball movement. We couldn't hope to defend the Spurs at all, for example. When the Orlando Magic used the Spurs playbook against us, they blew us out.

    Offensively, we lacked spacing due to Danny's injury and Green's inability to shoot after January (also caused by an injury). We weren't a huge threat from 3 and that allowed opposing teams to double down on our bigs in the post more often.

    We were also turnover prone. Our less turnover prone was George Hill at 10.7% turnover rate. West was at 12%, Lance at 14.4%, Roy at 14.5% and PG at 15.2%. Paul George has to clean up his handles more, Roy has to learn to play better against double teams, Lance has to stay in control more and West has to attempt safer passes more often.

    I never said that we are without weaknesses, my friend. I just believe that we can make this work in the end. You don't believe that. That's the difference between the two of us. That's why we disagree a lot in these forums.

    You said in a previous post of yours in this very thread that you have watched basketball physically a lot more than some of other members of this forum. I have no reason to doubt you, of course. But does that makes you any more qualified to speak about basketball than us? No, it doesn't.

    At the start of the season, you said that when we face the Grizzlies we will see which is the best rebounding and defensive team in the league. Which team ended up being the best rebounding and defensive team in the league? The Pacers. The Grizzlies were 2nd in both categories and they were excellent at both tasks but the Pacers were a tad better.

    When Roy Hibbert was shooting below 40% (39.7% it was at the time if my memory serves me right), we placed a bet. I said that Hibbert would reach 45% by the end of the season. You said that you didn't think that it would happen but you'd like it to happen because that would help us win games. Hibbert ended the season shooting 44.8%. I lost the bet but Hibbert improved more than you expected and helped us win games. We were both happy about it.

    Before the playoffs we placed another bet. It was a sig bet this time. You said that we weren't going to advance past the second round. In fact, you were so down due to our late season play (which was horrific, I agree) that you doubted if we were going to be able to advance past the first round. In any case, I took the bet. As expected, we advanced past the second round. We reached the ECF and we pushed the eventual champs to a game 7.

    Reaching the ECF looked like a pipe dream to you. To me, it looked like the natural course of events. It is the end result of the internal development that we witnessed throughout the season. But that's exactly why you don't believe in this team. You don't see this internal development. You don't see the improvement. You refuse to acknowledge it when it happens and come up with excuses as to why it happened (such as "the Pacers are in the East so it doesn't court"). You don't give credit where credit is due, my friend. That's why we disagree all the time. Because I pressure you to acknowledge the team's efforts and that's something that for whatever reason you don't feel comfortable doing.

    I never said that the Pacers are perfect, Dece. I don't believe in perfection, anyway. What I have always said is that you consistently underestimate this team and its players. That's all.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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  3. #1677
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    3 years! Awesome.

  4. #1678

    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
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    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  6. #1679
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
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    The Indiana Pacers are finalizing a three-year agreement with free agent David West, league sources tell Y! Sports.
    Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) July 2, 2013
    Deserves its own thread or something, huge, especially just for 3 years, i'm a little surprised. I couldn't be happer. BAMF!

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  8. #1680

    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I am not saying there is anything positive about it but its not like other well run teams haven't made similar mistakes. Think of another former Net (Richard Jefferson) and the Spurs.

    My objection to all crying about Green is simply that its not as bad as you would have us believe. Is it good? I don't think you could find one poster to say that it was a good signing now but its not a major mistake (yet). It does have the potential to cost us Lance but I will wait another year to decide how bad it really was in the end. Sometimes you have to chalk on up as a bad fit which is what I am doing with Green.

    Put him on a run and gun team and he wouldn't be as bad of a signing IMO.


    It's like getting new carpet only to find it doesn't look anything like the sample did. You paid for the carpet, and you are stuck with it for years.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We aren't friends, Nuntius. I can't decide if you are purposefully obtuse or genuinely deluded with the dishonesty of your arguments and inability to maintain context, but I just don't value our exchanges anymore as I simply don't respect you or your opinions any longer. I'm going to put you on ignore.

    I know the average BBIQ of this board has dropped a lot with the reduced contribitions from Count, JayRedd, Tbird, Chicago J, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I can't believe such a simple statement as the offensively oriented all star center is a better offensive player than the defensively oriented one. I'm genuinely disheartened with the (lack of) quality on this board lately.
    Dece, it's a habit of mine to address others as "my friend" in a forum. I just dislike saying "dude" or something like that as it comes off as too aggressive for my taste. Don't read too much into it. It's just the way I address people.

    Also, to answer your simple statement. I didn't say that Hibbert is a better offensive player than Lopez. I said that Hibbert is better at creating his own shot and creating for others while Lopez is a better volume scorer. That's what I have said in this subject.

    In any case, I'll have fun in your ignore list. You have every right to not respect me or my opinions.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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  11. #1682
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    My friend, I still believe that our system doesn't need a real point guard and George Hill is indeed excellent for what we're trying to do, imo.

    Dece, you said something that is absolutely wrong here:



    Who said that our system does not give us a ton of assisted buckets?

    Let's check out the percentage of assisted buckets for the other 4 of our starters:

    David West was assisted in 63.3% of his baskets in the regular season and 66.1% of his baskets during the playoffs. So, David was assisted significantly more than Roy.

    Paul George was assisted in 57.6% of his baskets in the regular season and 48.7% of his baskets during the playoffs. He was assisted more than Roy in the RS but less than him in the playoffs since he shared ball handling duties with George Hill.

    Lance Stephenson was assisted in 58.9% of his baskets in the regular season and 50.7% of his baskets during the playoffs. Lance was assisted more than Roy in the RS and a bit more in the playoffs after Vogel gave him the green light to create for himself and attack after a defensive rebound (we all remember his coast to coast baskets).

    George Hill was assisted in 44.8% of his baskets in the regular season and 48.2% of his baskets during the playoffs. He was the only player that was consistently assisted less than Roy and that makes sense since he is the PG so he's the one that gets to assist others instead of the opposite.

    Let's check our back-ups a bit:

    Ian Mahinmi: 69.8% in the RS, 53.8% in the playoffs (7 assisted out of 13 baskets)

    Tyler Hansbrough: 52.8% in the RS, 46.2% in the playoffs (12 out of 26)

    Orlando Johnson: 61.1% in the RS, 50% in the playoffs (1 out of 2)

    DJ Augustin: 64.1% in the RS, 70.4% in the playoffs

    Sam Young: 63.8% in the RS, 66.7% in the playoffs

    Gerald Green: 63.2% in the RS, 61.9% in the playoffs

    Jeff Pendergraph: 80.3% in the RS, 62.5% in the playoffs

    Our second unit was in contrast with our first unit. Our first unit had players that could create their own shot and thus they didn't rely on being assisted by their teammates. The second unit had only 1 such player (Hansbrough) and thus needed to be assisted in a much higher rate. And they were.

    Dece, I never said that the Pacers can do no wrong and have no weaknesses. We certainly have weaknesses. Every team does. We have weakness in both sides of the floor.

    Defensively, we struggle against big men that can shoot the long range jumper. That's why we lost all of our games against Brooklyn. We cannot defend the Deron Williams - Brook Lopz PnP well. With the addition of KG and PP, I expect the Nets to be even tougher opponents for us (since we didn't beat the Celtics last year either).

    We also struggle against top notch ball movement. We couldn't hope to defend the Spurs at all, for example. When the Orlando Magic used the Spurs playbook against us, they blew us out.

    Offensively, we lacked spacing due to Danny's injury and Green's inability to shoot after January (also caused by an injury). We weren't a huge threat from 3 and that allowed opposing teams to double down on our bigs in the post more often.

    We were also turnover prone. Our less turnover prone was George Hill at 10.7% turnover rate. West was at 12%, Lance at 14.4%, Roy at 14.5% and PG at 15.2%. Paul George has to clean up his handles more, Roy has to learn to play better against double teams, Lance has to stay in control more and West has to attempt safer passes more often.

    I never said that we are without weaknesses, my friend. I just believe that we can make this work in the end. You don't believe that. That's the difference between the two of us. That's why we disagree a lot in these forums.

    You said in a previous post of yours in this very thread that you have watched basketball physically a lot more than some of other members of this forum. I have no reason to doubt you, of course. But does that makes you any more qualified to speak about basketball than us? No, it doesn't.

    At the start of the season, you said that when we face the Grizzlies we will see which is the best rebounding and defensive team in the league. Which team ended up being the best rebounding and defensive team in the league? The Pacers. The Grizzlies were 2nd in both categories and they were excellent at both tasks but the Pacers were a tad better.

    When Roy Hibbert was shooting below 40% (39.7% it was at the time if my memory serves me right), we placed a bet. I said that Hibbert would reach 45% by the end of the season. You said that you didn't think that it would happen but you'd like it to happen because that would help us win games. Hibbert ended the season shooting 44.8%. I lost the bet but Hibbert improved more than you expected and helped us win games. We were both happy about it.

    Before the playoffs we placed another bet. It was a sig bet this time. You said that we weren't going to advance past the second round. In fact, you were so down due to our late season play (which was horrific, I agree) that you doubted if we were going to be able to advance past the first round. In any case, I took the bet. As expected, we advanced past the second round. We reached the ECF and we pushed the eventual champs to a game 7.

    Reaching the ECF looked like a pipe dream to you. To me, it looked like the natural course of events. It is the end result of the internal development that we witnessed throughout the season. But that's exactly why you don't believe in this team. You don't see this internal development. You don't see the improvement. You refuse to acknowledge it when it happens and come up with excuses as to why it happened (such as "the Pacers are in the East so it doesn't court"). You don't give credit where credit is due, my friend. That's why we disagree all the time. Because I pressure you to acknowledge the team's efforts and that's something that for whatever reason you don't feel comfortable doing.

    I never said that the Pacers are perfect, Dece. I don't believe in perfection, anyway. What I have always said is that you consistently underestimate this team and its players. That's all.
    Lol dayum Nun, you KILLED it with this (and the other) post!

    I think he put you on ignore because you won "the bet" lol

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  13. #1683
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Don't worry Nuntius we can be friends.

    The assisted numbers remind me of the same argument that people had with liking Humphries over West. They simply didn't evaluate offensive system and the lil point of playing with an all star point guard.

    I still think Brook Lopez would be a efficent player in a different system but he wouldn't be as efficient on the offensive end.
    Haha, thanks

    Lopez would certainly be an efficient player in another system. He is a great PnP player and he doesn't need Deron to do that. Lopez has an excellent mid range shot and he's a skilled offensive player so he would be efficient in most systems.

    It's just that the nature of his offensive talents make him more team reliant than Hibbert or Marc Gasol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Lol dayum Nun, you KILLED it with this (and the other) post!

    I think he put you on ignore because you won "the bet" lol
    Nah, I'm aware that I can be pretty annoying when I insist on something
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  14. #1684
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    12 players

    Hibbert 14,283,844
    West 12,000,000
    Granger 14,021,788
    George 3,282,003
    Hill 8,000,000
    Mahinmi 4,000,000
    Green 3,500,000
    Plumlee 1,121,520
    Stephenson 930,000
    Johnson 788,872
    Hill 1,300,000
    Watson 2,000,000

    Total Salary 65,228,057
    LT 71,600,000
    Spendable salary 6,371,943


    Numbers from Shamsports.com excluding West, Watson and Hill
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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  16. #1685
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    If that's what you are reading than it's simply a product of woeful reading comprehension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We aren't friends, Nuntius. I can't decide if you are purposefully obtuse or genuinely deluded with the dishonesty of your arguments and inability to maintain context
    I won't look up all your post in this thread in which you have insulted other respected members of this forum, but I will ask this. Are you intentionally trying to **** off everyone or did someone take a leak in your corn flakes this morning?

    There is nothing wrong at all with trying to give support to your own opinion, but to do it in this nature is simply uncalled for.

    I'm genuinely disheartened with the (lack of) quality on this board lately.
    You have certainly been contributing to that lack of quality you perceive. Surely you can do better than this, as I think you have in the past.
    Last edited by Tom White; 07-02-2013 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Could this work salary wise?

    Starting line:
    George Hill
    Tony Allen
    Paul George
    David West
    Roy Hibbert

    Bench:
    C.J. Watson
    Lance Stephenson
    Danny Granger
    Carl Landry
    Ian M.

    Wild Cards:
    Copeland
    Solomon Hill

    This is my dream for next season lol

  19. #1687

    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by DJVendetta View Post
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    Could this work salary wise?

    Starting line:
    George Hill
    Tony Allen
    Paul George
    David West
    Roy Hibbert

    Bench:
    C.J. Watson
    Lance Stephenson
    Danny Granger
    Carl Landry
    Ian M.

    Wild Cards:
    Copeland
    Solomon Hill

    This is my dream for next season lol
    keep dreaming lol

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    would Tony Allen cost us that much? especially if we dont sign Tyler and Don't sign Copeland?

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by DJVendetta View Post
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    would Tony Allen cost us that much? especially if we dont sign Tyler and Don't sign Copeland?
    we would barely have enough $ to sign Landry alone, we wont be able to sign TA right now as it is he would cost too much. Take TA out of your lineup and pick Landry or Copeland and that is all we can afford

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    fair enough, still great line ups we got coming if we get Landry, and possibly Copeland. I feel like Christian Watford would be a cheaper alternative to Copeland...younger with more upside (assuming his shot translates into the NBA)

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    "Sources say" Jarrett Jack wants 7 mil a year minimum

    http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2013...yre-not-alone/
    What Teams can offer him that?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013



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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    What Teams can offer him that?
    I had a feeling Jack would be trying to win the lottery.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    lol Bynum refuses to workout for any teams until he is signed....shame

  30. #1695

    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Webster deal is the full MLE, 4/$22. Glad we didn't do something like that.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by DJVendetta View Post
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    would Tony Allen cost us that much? especially if we dont sign Tyler and Don't sign Copeland?
    Who would be our backup PF if it's not Hansbrough, Pendy or even Copeland?

    I'd love for it to be Granger while having Tony Allen.....but I doubt that he's going anywhere where he is not the starter. I don't mind giving the starting SG spot to Tony Allen if he comes here and then pushing Lance and Granger to the bench ( this season ) and then just Lance next season....but I doubt that happens.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Who would be our backup PF if it's not Hansbrough, Pendy or even Copeland?

    I'd love for it to be Granger while having Tony Allen.....but I doubt that he's going anywhere where he is not the starter. I don't mind giving the starting SG spot to Tony Allen if he comes here and then pushing Lance and Granger to the bench ( this season ) and then just Lance next season....but I doubt that happens.
    Landry? lol but yeah it would be nice, but I understand signing Landry and Allen would probably be too much money

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Webster deal is the full MLE, 4/$22. Glad we didn't do something like that.
    Did you watch him last year?? He was one of the best defenders and shooters in the league. I am surprised a contender didst get him. If he stays healthy he is worth MLE money IMO. Wojo said he was a leader and a great veteran presence in the locker room great signing for Washington they need grown ups around the kids.

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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Did you watch him last year?? He was one of the best defenders and shooters in the league. I am surprised a contender didst get him. Wojo said he was a leader and a great veteran presence in the locker room great signing for Washington they need grown ups around the kids.
    It's a prohibitive contract for us but it's a fair contract for Webster given his contributions. He is the definition of a 3 & D guy and has improved his rebounding a bit recently. He is still young but he's a mature player that will help Washington's youngsters. I like the deal for both Martell and the Wizards.
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    Default Re: Off Season News, Rumors, and Trades, etc. 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Did you watch him last year?? He was one of the best defenders and shooters in the league. I am surprised a contender didst get him. If he stays healthy he is worth MLE money IMO. Wojo said he was a leader and a great veteran presence in the locker room great signing for Washington they need grown ups around the kids.
    I meant literally glad WE didn't do something like that. He's not worth that money to us.

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